Albert Butler
Albert Butler was born in New York City in 1897 to parents who had emigrated from Europe, likely arriving in the early 1890s. His mother came from a town he recalled as being in what he believed was Poland, and his older brother had been born abroad while he and his sister were born in the United States. When Albert was about eight years old his father died at age 47 and was buried in New York. His widowed mother struggled to raise the children, running first a small grocery store and later a candy shop, living behind the store and working from early morning until late at night. As a young man Albert worked in a corset manufacturing company, taking a course at a training institute to become an overseer responsible for more than 400 workers on one floor.
In 1915, at about eighteen years of age, Albert came to Dallas with relatives, traveling by boat from New York to New Orleans and then on to Dallas, where they were met with a horse and buggy. He entered the shoe business alongside a relative, starting as a stock boy and gradually gaining a small interest in the store. Over the following decades he built a career in shoes, eventually opening his own famous-brand and self-service stores, partnering in ventures that reached cities such as San Angelo, Abilene, and Texarkana, and traveling extensively to acquire quality footwear. Changing conditions, discount stores, and imports eventually made the business unsustainable, and he closed his last store around 1975. He lived on St. Louis Street, Cadiz Street, and Park Row before moving to his Northport home around 1952.
Albert's Jewish life centered on Congregation Shearith Israel, which he joined in 1916 as one of the very few single young men to become a member. He served as usher at the Park Avenue synagogue, as treasurer under different presidents, and was closely involved with the Jonathan Club, a social organization founded by Rabbi Gold that he considered the forerunner of the congregation's Brotherhood. He recalled its famous banquets, dances, and picnics of the 1930s through the 1950s. Raised in a strictly observant home, he kept kosher while his mother lived and never ate pork or shellfish. He supported many Jewish causes, belonged to organizations including B'nai B'rith and the YIVO Institute, and treasured the Yiddish language. He lived with his mother until her death in 1955, married in 1920, and later remarried after being widowed.
Full Transcript
...26, and we are talking with Mr. Albert Butler, May the 26th, 1983. And we are at his home at 6822... 14. 6814 Northport. Alright, Mr. Butler, how many years have you lived in Dallas? 68 years. 68 years? It's a long time. Do you remember why you came here? How did you come to the damage? I lost my father when I was eight years old. And I had a sister and a brother. My sister was almost a year and a half old, two years older than I am. My brother was about ten years older. My brother had already been living by himself. my mother and my father passed away.
We ran a little grocery store in New York City, we lived behind the store, and my mother was early in the morning to late at night. And we, Mr. Zestma here, and Mrs. Hesselson, who was my aunt, and Jenny Zestma, who was my cousin, and Allie Casselson were struggling so much. After we had given up the grocery store, we went into a few at a candy shop. We used to open up early in the morning and close late at night and live behind the store also. My mother was struggling and trying to make a living for both of us. My sister and myself, Mrs. Heselson and Allie Casselson and Isaacman, and Jenny's that's number of the daughter of Mrs.
Hathleton, they sent forth from New York, we came down here by boat to New Orleans and New Orleans to Dallas. They picked us up in a horse and buggy, the old H&TC track on the Central Expressway, and now I certainly accepted down on the Deep Almond, as you call it then. And before I came down here I was an overseer for the Nemo corporate company a three hours and a half a week Six days a week When I become an overseer I had to go through the Nemo Hygienic Fashion Institute Showed me how to make a corset from top to bottom of the process. 75 to 80 different operations using all kinds of machines.
Before that time, I was a shortage truck paying three hours a week. In order to make that extra fifty cents, I took this course. And I had finally, as I passed, I had charged over 400 girls on one floor. And after we came to Dallas, which was us and was in the shoe business, and I immediately went into the shoe business with him, got a stock boy, and after several years, I got a very, very small interest in the next day of the shoe store. and they'd plug and walk a flight instead of a dollar. And from there, I was concerned that we didn't know on St.
Louis Street. Finally, we got to lay in upstairs on Mr. Louis Climbing on Taylor Street. And my sister in 1919 down the floor, but then he passed away. Meanwhile, I think I may be bragging, but I think I know of anybody, I don't know of anybody, that I should say that I lived with my mother from the time I was born until the time she passed away in 1955. I was born 1897. So I was 58 years, and when I married, I'm getting that far ahead, and when I married, my wife lived with us, and it's unbelievable, but the way those two got along, people wouldn't believe it at all.
No, whatever I got from my mother wasn't good enough for me. Whatever I got from my wife, my mother said I didn't do enough for my wife. And it's unbelievable that it's a child too, a daughter-in-law and a mother-in-law can get along like they did. She passed away in 1955 as they moved in this house. They've been inside one year. Got hit in 1950 until she passed away in 1955. But if I can give you a long story my mother didn know this story was good It may sound like I driving but it the truth We lived on Park Row at that time Where on Park Row?
29, 24 Park Row. What year was that? I would say possibly, let's see, how it was, in 2019, 22 or 23. I want to ask you, were your parents born in the United States or were they born in Europe? Born in Europe. My brother was born in Europe, but my sister and myself were born in this country. Do you know when they came to the United States? It would be pretty hard to say, but I'm sure they came here before I was born in 1897. They were born in 1895, so they must have been... We were born here, so they must have got here possibly in the early 90s.
Where were they from? My mother was from Tershawm, in the way that is. And her father, I think, in Zagreb. Was that in Poland or Russia? I think that was Poland, see. and I started to tell you it might sound like I was bragging but it's something I did do that when we were living on Park Row my mother fell down and broke her head she was a very very heavy set woman and before they went dismissive from the hospital it was important that she get up twice a day and who could take care of that but we lived why search funeral home wasn't like Postleboro or the fairgrounds.
And the doctor told me that she had to get up a price a day. I asked the doctor, I said, who's going to do that? She said, well, I'm sorry. I can't help you. I'd like to help you. But one morning I woke up. I got the idea that Sugg Funeral Home, which is a fairground, that's very far from us, to see if I couldn't make a deal for them when they don't have a funeral to come out the house, and leave it up about an hour and then come back to the restaurant and put her back in bed. Well, I made arrangements at Suggs funeral home when they'd done that, see.
Well, that went on for a good six months. Now that Suggs S S funeral home Pardon What was the Suggs S house Okay go ahead And in fact my doctor Brady Reddick he called me and he told me my mother's got six months to live. It's not ever. I'm going to come out. I don't make house calls. I'm going to come out once a week anyway and see how your mother's doing. Well, after he told me she went there six months, she left for nine and a half years there after. She passed away at this house. Of course, we'd help all the time. But the thing that's unusual, of course, I don't have to tell you what the experience was.
What was I making in those days? But Sugg was very, very liberal. We thought that some day they couldn't come here, another day they didn't come. They'd come and pick her up and put her in a wheelchair, put her in a chair. Then put her back in the bottom of the wall and put her back in bed. As I said before, it would take about a six-month deal. So meanwhile, I've done the best I could to keep all the things going. And I said before, I'd have lived nine and a half years at the top of the toes, and that's six months. So then after I- But we married in 1920, and how it was going 1921.
They've all lived together and that's the story there until I, in 1945, I had a small interest in it. But Mr. S. Randy, at that time he opened up the tribe, that time he opened up in the fair in Fort Worth. I lived small interest there. I don't know if it throws up the stores there. I helped them from some departments in the city like uh, uh, San Angelo, Abilene, and Texarkana. And then I, uh, I finally just opened up a new Frank Shoe store with that with Frank Zanis. The famous brand shoe was the first one to me. That's probably a country with a famous brand store on the Comprecise Garden.
What year was that? I'd say 1946. Meanwhile, I closed up my other department and I was busy getting shoes and getting in by the fine stores. It was time at reasonable prices, very reasonable prices. But we were paying more for them, we were getting more desirable shoes. At the East Coast, the flying store had a disposal at the end of this evening, they couldn't afford to show the same shoes over again. So they used to get plain English bookers for it. I made a deal with these, all these, the Spiders 2 flying stores. In those years, until 1950, 1954, I used to travel almost 100,000 M.I.
every year, one of the great cities. The reason why I had the connection was because, through my repair in Fort Worth, I had high-grade shoes. And I had access to quite a few high-grade stores, and good shoe operators. I made a deal with them that I'd pay them a certain percentage of what they were regular sellers for. And I was getting some fine shoes and selling them for less price than what they used to have them on sale. And then they decided we had surplus. So we opened some self-service shoe stores. And I also went on Pacific Avenue. and their way of showing self-service shoes.
Today, they still don't show it that way. You go into a self-service store today, you've got a pair of shoes that tie together with a string, they put a needle through the shoes down as they start off with, they put them on racks, and what good is a rack of shoes down as they start off with, it's soil and so forth, so on. We can see the idea of putting these shoes in boxes, taking the lids off of them, And the customers were in single box shells. And these customers would pull the boxes out to see what they wanted, see if they were like it.
And they'd try them on. Otherwise, every morning we'd have the stock boys always on keep our shoes in perfect shape, cleaning them up and so forth and so on. Then we opened up Oak Cliff, and we opened up on the San Diego Bullard. And I dissolved my partnership with the Transgander and the operators from 1955 to 1975, 20 years. I finally had to give up that business because of the faculty. A lot of these stores became self stealing my stuff that they were not doing to I was doing to And we ran that what happened was very successful And the time came that everybody went into a discount, and there was a misused word, if there ever was a word.
an open thing as a discount store. And of course, as I said before, they're selling Nambit shoes that start off there. And with all these different people, and they're having business of getting into the shoe then you just took over like picks, you know, clothes, you know, now that's WR Grace. And the ladies even went into that kind of business. And there's a lot of links to the stores. In other words, the individual in the shoe store today is gone. It's like a grocery store. It's all changed and so forth and so on. Then there's the advent of imports, which is very, very important. I, as a small man, couldn't import direct, but these big organizations had their own imports, owned their importing officers in Europe and so forth and so on.
So, after about four years of losing money, losing money, losing money, we finally had a cold. And that was the end of it, 1975, because of the record. In fact, the matter, I have a... I don't know you're saying before, I don't mean nothing. And then, of course, I married... I remarried, my wife passed away in 1967. I remarried him in the last one. I can't mention him because he's been remarried. Why that party left me, I still don't know to this day, so I had no mistreatment of anything in my career. And then I finally married Mr. Sobach, and the last five years naturally, you know, when she was in the president, they were taking me.
Before I married there, I asked my cousin, Dr. Roach, and he thought it was okay, and she was doing fine. She always suffered with asthma, but she was doing fine. That lady up in there two weeks ago she passed away I have all by myself and I walk with it understand I gave you a message there Well we have a lot more to talk about I need to clog my... Oh, your background? Pretty much. Let's talk about your Jewish education and your Jewish involvement. What kind of education in Jewish matters did you get when you were growing up? Well, when I was living in New York, I went to a committal.
And of course, being a, I'd say a rock chair, I paid very little attention to what I was doing. I was doing a final mortgage and 35 a day to say that. And I had very little time, you understand, for Jewish education because we were in the grocery business. I had to deliver groceries in the morning and in the afternoon and so forth. So, maybe time, ten flights of steps, and it was literally three cents worth of milk or something like that. It was unbelievable that the story, though. So, my Jewish education, I say, should have been different. Yet again, it wasn't. I've got very, very little Jewish education.
In fact, the Jewish education I've had, what I mean as far as Hebrew is concerned. But after all, in those days, don't forget all we had on the farm, it's in New York. I didn't talk English. In fact, as a matter of fact, I might say today that I'm more qualified than 90% of the people who were even born in my day. that unless they lived in a section where nothing but Jewish people lived, they'd have less knowledge of the Yiddish language than I have. Because I know that's all they spoke with Yiddish. I'll try to once in a while try to kill the Yiddish.
So that was my Jewish education. And then of course, when I came to Dallas after we built the Park Avenue shul, Henry, Eli, and myself become ushers. And we ushered, we really ushered, because Henry Eli was insurance business. And he went on Friday and Saturday night, I could only go on Friday night. And of course the high holidays we ushered I was doing that period until the time they built this present shore see I had no chance of reading and I lost it I can truthfully say that I, the Hebrew language, I can truthfully say that I can't read Hebrew. Could you, when you came to Dallas in 1915?
Not too good either because I said before I didn't pay a number of money. But that's all, you might say I was a rough kid, call it that. How many years did you go, did you have a Hebrew school in New York? We had a Talmud Torah, it's called a Talmud Torah. And of course for me to be Balmetschus, I had to have a private tutor, see. So I was Balmetschus in New York, see. And incidentally I want to go back to my life. Sure. You've heard of Willie Eugene Howard, the actor. Okay. The name is Lefkowitz. Their father was a cantor and a mole.
And he was the one that worked on me. And when the high holidays came, they rented the other hand and said in New York, Willie, Eugene and Sam was another one of them in the theatrical business. And the secretary was his mouth. They were the choir. And they used to track a lot of high-casts, because it was a dozen high-cast places. So that was my original background. But the Willie Eugene Howard's father was a kinder animal. And the name was Leftwich. Well now, when you came here in 1915, what was the Jewish education like, and what were the services like? You mean the English education, I mean the Hebrew education?
The Hebrew education as far as the kids, and the Jewish and the conflict? I think it was more or less, more or less, I would say, like Mr. Holden or, I forgot and Mr. Harris would more or less take private lessons other than also getting ready for the barometric, as a barometric. But in those days, I don't think you've heard of a botanist. So that was the education. And after that, why Ms. Levine came here, see, and they had the, where they had that, I don't know. Park Row. Well, they had it somewhere else before they went to Park Row. That was in, who owned that house there?
Was it Byron? That was later. Originally there was a North White House on the corner of Park Row and Edgewood. David Desmar, he worked out at leaving. I can't name a line, the boys that really came out of there. Also, the Snyder boy, there was about four or five of them that were very, very active with Levine. I thought that he was a godfather, which he was, as far as teaching he was. But as far as leadership is concerned right there, I'm quite well qualified to talk to you. And of course also there's a lot of words that are not used here, and people are not familiar with it.
But I happen to know because they use it in New York, but they didn't use it here with an administration. Oh, buddy, what's the subway? We didn't have it here, we lived here, you never heard of it. It was an underbar. Uh-huh. It was a bar. Now it was permissible. It was permissible right now. I want to give you a little story of one word that was used to a great extent. What is the answer word for disappointment? You've heard that popular halicum time. So I happen to know what disappointment is. It was permissible right now. I'll give you a little story on Tatsy Rackley.
A woman went to meet her daughter at a railroad station. First she was asked, she said in Yiddish, , which is a train. She said , , that's a disappointment. So she went to see your daughter on the train. You talk about the Yiddish words, you understand? I can give you a dozen. In fact, we had some Yiddish classes at the Shareth, Israel, several years ago. And I belonged to it. In fact I have a modern dictionary which I gave to the Shulman I gave one to Rabbi Shapiro and I gave one to the Canton and I also gave one to the Golden Acres I belonged to the Evo Institute at that time And Wynneich, which was the head of the University, I had an occasion to meet him in New York.
I used to go to New York five, six times a year, and we were discussing the Yiddish language. And I got the dictionary here. It's transliterated also, and also has the Yiddish translated into English, and the Yiddish translated into English separate. I want to show you that book. That's a modern dictionary. Now the only trouble is I can't read it. If the Yiddish word, or the English word, if I don't have the print left, I definitely can't read it. When's the last time you heard the word print the last? Long time ago. Long time ago. Let me ask you, do you remember when Mr. Levine came to Dallas?
No, I don't, but I would say it in the early... I said in late 39, the popularity for you. Well, um, he came as the principal of Hebrew School of Dallas, and that was in 1929. Uh oh. So, yes, sometimes it gets away from you. Do you remember as to how they raised money for the Hebrew school, the setup of that Hebrew school? Well, they raised money because we had a couple of philanthropists in us, and I was very, very liberal. One was Ike Tablaskin, and one was Harry Siggins, and this is my cousin, Isaac was a cousin, actually, who married. In his humble way, he wasn't a wealthy man, due to the fact that his son more than anything else, David Zephmer was very very much of an interesting people and he contributed above the average share of Peyton shares Of course you must take into consideration during those days like our conditions were that the early days like every year, our dues at the show was $18 a year.
What year? 1915, 1916, and always until the time they built the Park Avenue Shule, Mr. Miller, who was Henry Miller's great-grandfather, used to go out and collect a dollar and a half a month, you understand these people, see. And I'm going back to those days, also I had to treasure the shore on several different occasions. And in the summertime, I'd say, last year, and I would say, the average person that's living today don't realize what they've done for this city here. I happen to know the way they'd be using me. And once in a while, they'd also get George Laudamore, who was an undertaker. He was very, very philanthropic.
And he was pitching me once in a while. Was he Jewish? No. What were some of the things they did? Well, mostly finance. In other words, we didn't have enough money to pay the rabbi or whatever little help we had. Especially when some of the time they'd go out and they'd want to make a loan at the bank. And they would understand they would understand. So, there was a very, very strong cop in the sight. As I said before, the average person who knew me and didn't know to what extent they went. He was going, oh boy. Now, once in a while, Aaron Chapman would do a little chipping.
Nothing to speak of, but he would do it though. Outside of that, why he didn't do it. We had other people become wealthy afterwards, you understand. But just in the pool house, if you want to call it back, that was always the drive of those days. Right. Did they have a general drive Now I been told that on high holidays Never had a general drive as I know of Most everybody when they built the car cabs was sure bought seats permanent seats and paid for them And of course, about... More than half of them were sure that they didn't buy them, that's our income. Our biggest income we had was to be sure.
well did that take care of the amount of the building cost of the building well the uh if i'm not mistaken i don't remember i'm not mistaken i think they had a building formed and they raised one and that and other people and of course in some states you understand yeah if you had a certain amount of money you wouldn't be able i had three feet doing something For each seat or for all three seats? All three seats. Was it $250 when they built that shill in 1990? Excuse me, just a minute, we can cut that off. Sure. Now, I would like to clarify on the shill and the Hebrew school.
You said that Mr. Siegel and Mr. Sobloski were very familiar prophets. Did they donate to large sums to the Hebrew school as well as to the synagogue? They contributed to the Hebrew school as well as the synagogue. And I'm not mistaken. I think the also another party was very, very active as well, making contributions to the the hebrews store was mr segal it led out in a little cliff now which mr segal was that do you know i don't know what his first name was was that mr there was that um hilda heffler's father was he later the principal of the school of the religious school i think so or rather one of the the people you know he wasn't principal but he was the chairperson for the synagogue is and your own observance as far as the traditions are concerned if you may before and if they've changed in it so how do you change I don't think there's much change other than the fact that we've become more conservative than we have in the past.
And I would say that's due to the passing away of the old timers and the newer Alvin coming in here, and the younger Alvin coming in here, and I think that's your biggest change, of course. Well, let's talk about your own personal observance. As you were a child growing up, were you more traditional than you are then? What? When you were a child growing up, was your own home situation? Well, I had to go in there in New York and in some of my mother's house or wherever you kept the physical control. What about observing holidays? Oh, every one of them. Every one of them.
Did she light candles on Friday night? Oh, yes. I don't know what to do with them. I don't know what to do with them. I started a question in the cottage. Mm-hmm. And I could have an iron, a barrel. I'd have a two-lap, I'd have a two-lap, I'd have a two-lap, I'd have a two-lap. I'd have a two-lap. I don't know what to do with them. I don't know what to do with them. Mm-hmm. Um, now when you moved here, Were you also as observant as she? What? Were you as observant as your mother? No, ma'am. No, ma'am. Well, I still today, I won't eat ham, I won't eat pork, I won't eat shrimp, I won't eat a lot of things, you know, that I said, that I said, that I was really not, absolutely not cautious.
But other than that, I ate out. After my mother passed away, of course my wife was reformed, see. And my mother was reformed, too. We didn't go to any ham or any other side of the road. We eliminated the kosher problem, absolutely kosher problem. Did your wife go to the sheriff's office with you? Sure. Oh, okay. Oh, the house went to Temple Emanuel, but he got his botanistical in the sheriff's office. to be a chariotism. In other words, my wife's mother, her name was Adelaide was an Lorraine they were not made over reform they were reformed for the time they got here And up until my mother passed away, we kept the strictly social harm, I said before.
And I didn't observe it. Well, I said before, really, the essential non-facial clothes, I didn't mean to say it on me. I'm not going to be good enough. I'm raised that way, and I don't know me better. Did you close your shoe stores on Hoshishan, Yom Kippur? Definitely. When my mother was allowed, definitely. And afterwards? afterwards is why no did you close them because of your mother or did you close them because another jewish business member did other jewish businessmen also close their stores years and years ago they used to you know individually also just as soon as they can change i found completely but i would say most of those in the early days in the high holidays they closed Can you give me a year in terms of time frame?
In terms of what? Time frame. What years that would include? Well, I would say the time I came here, 1915 until possibly 1940, maybe a few years less, two years more, the stores closed. at the closing of the day, they were sort of like the big department stores, they were on and out there by Jewish people. Can you name a few? Anger, the Harrison Company, Paz Gettinger, some of the big ones, right? Yes. Yeah. Well, that was all the department stores. I mean, the one that was in the other, the other that was controlled by W.E.G. was not Jewish. How about Teich's? Teich Kettenshire? Oh sure.
Dreyfus and some? Well, that's the general store, Neiman Marcus, Dreyfus, I think the French name remains, but I can't store them in all those specialty shops. Even though there was one here there was a pretty good specialty shop they were filled to them They were filled to them Yes In fact I say all of the Jewish stalls were closed in the 19th century because one wouldn't open yet the other would be closed. Uh-huh. Let's talk a little bit about our synagogue, and what were the services like in, say, 1915 to 1920? Well, of course, in 1915 we were on Jackson Street. And if I remember correctly, I think we still had a building in the center.
And I also know the women used to look at me up in the gallery. The balcony, I mean, pardon me. And of course, there was a change from the time they moved to Park Row. That was a laminated thing. And... Excuse me, wasn't that a park in Eakin? Park Avenue and East Aiken was where the... ...of the city park. Correct, okay. And of course, most of our services were held out in the park. Or on the balcony. What about the length of service? We didn't have enough room for everybody. What about the length of service when we were on Jackson? I'd say it was normal, otherwise they weren't too long.
and they weren't shortening anyway. I'd say today they're shortening to a great extent. Why they follow a sitter that has somebody paid, they go and paid so-and-so and paid so-and-so. And they go and they've been from our park. See, my sister passed away during the period. I used to go there every morning and every night I used to walk from Cater Street over to Jackson Street to take cottage from my sister's. And of course I used to be all these old times in the evening especially. I used to be there to learn to read and so forth and so on. And I can't help but mention one man's name that to me was the most unusual person I'd ever was.
Is it Mr Orlewitz perhaps Mr Orlewitz You know he used to know the days he used to have to put in a glass of a window and he'd carry it on his back, and always had a pipe of candy in his hand, and always give it to some kid to John Whale, he wasn't white, black, or yellow, obviously. And he and the, there's quite a few old times, I can't think of names right now, that used to learn, laying or laying, whatever you want to call it, see. That was on... Jackson Street. Jackson Street. And Park Avenue, well, that was illuminated to a certain extent.
Wasn't so bad, I wasn't there as many, because most everybody lived in that neighborhood, the shore, regardless of North Dallas or the Wild Street. In Jackson Street they were closer? In Jackson Street, they were closer too. But I would say the service would be there enough in line with the service that was having those days as far as taking it all in. It's a-it's like life is a craft beer. Shortened. Shortened. Shortened. What about like, Rocha Sona services? Did they run very late? Shortened. Right, in the old days they used to run through the forms, and I don't recall at any time that any research period.
For Yom Kippur? No research? Yes. Great thrift. What about the prayer books? What about the Mopslorians at the time? Well, I can't remember the prayer book. When Suleman came here, they got the new Suleman prayer book. Now I know it's the other day I'm in the showroom. I know it's got different prayer books in part of the day. Mm-hmm. Yes. Changing time, too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You spoke of changing neighborhoods a little bit. When you moved to Dallas in 1915, you said you lived on St. Louis Street, which is just south of the downtown area. Well, everybody lived down in that area, mostly. They lived on Marion Street, Canton Street, or St.
Louis, or a few of them went out far of Belgium, very, very few of them. And I would say that the, and of course a lot of them lived in North Dallas, like Caroline Street and so forth and so on, Highland Street, Island River. But every one of them, you understand, were in Warton district. And I thought that those that lived on the Cayenne and Marion and that section right over St. Louis already were not necessarily wealthier people, but they created another section. They had to do it again, cut it off on the hill. You were talking about the moves from St. Louis and the neighborhoods.
Now, did people move from the North Dallas area to Tata's, or were these people that had come more recently? These people what? Had come more recently to Dallas, the people that settled there. The people that settled there were people that lived in Dallas for a long time. Like the Ludberg, the Hasseltsons, the Burstein, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, also they used Bravo Street too. There was also the Kleiman's, Tom Kleiman's family, Louie Kleiman. And, uh, uh, my uncle used to live on Taylor Street right there in the Harriton. I can't think of the name, but that was the neighborhood, you know what I'm saying.
Was that between Irving and Pearl? Where was that in relation? What were the cross streets? Between Irving and the, let's say, the railroad track, I'm more than the... Railroad track. Marion Street Irby Akin Browder Marion and then there were the mill there the Norton Moines milling there But from there on lived better than nothing there They were going to trim the river I imagine I don know where But they didn't live much past Marion Street. That was about the end of it. Okay, this show on Jackson Street, what about the people living on Deep Elm that was closer to that area of Jackson near Pearl?
Well, what about that area? Did sheriff's members live in that area too? No, the north of the city, they couldn't live in that area. There was nothing there. There was nothing in the business, you see. I see down there, the business is there, but they lived in either in North Dallas, like I said, Karen Street, Highland, and so forth, or in this other section, I said, and the Thedas, Marion, and so forth and so on. All right, was that part of the Cedars? Was that considered part of the neighborhood called the Cedars? no no but it was north dallas or something they had another name for it i can't think of it okay now north dallas in those days is what came to be known as little mexico is that correct now the people living there did more of them go to or did some of them go to sheriff israel and then some go to teferis right i see the people going to share did they were they the people that came closer to moving to uh not necessarily okay okay i would say in my opinion there that the people that went to the first israel even then and later on and even saying today yeah a little more orthodox in time.
Strictly, they weren't faceted, but they somehow took the older Jewish religion, I call it that. Traditional, perhaps? What? Traditional? Yeah. When did people, or Jewish people, start moving from St. Louis street and did they move south to South Dallas? Two movements. Come in. There was quite a few of them, and they moved away from the sections that we mentioned before They moved further out on Anacris Street in Pauhatton and I can even think of the names And of course from there they moved into South Dallas, and then Park Row, some on Grand Avenue, some on Boulevard, on 5th Avenue and also on Colonial Avenue going on out there.
That was there in Nashville. They went to East Dallas, called the East Dallas thing. That's the Mockingbird Lane and all that section around here. Alright, Mockingbird and what intersection? You said Mockingbird Lane for East Dallas now. What would be the area with the Cross Street? Well, we're talking about Purdue and... Is that East instead of North? That's North, it's called North, North, okay. North, okay. North, North. Okay, what's that? I always thought North Dallas was McKinney Avenue. Yes. What, about what year did they start moving into Grand Avenue in... I would say in the late 20s. That's one of the reasons for the creation of the Pateh, I'm sure.
Uh-huh. Now then, did the temple people start moving to South Dallas before the Sherath-Israel people? Yes. Yes. Did they have perhaps start when the neighborhood was developed? In fact, they didn't. Did they start when South Dallas was started to develop? No, it hadn't already been developed. It had been developed when they started moving into South Dallas? Yeah. I see. I see. All right. Now, you moved from Cadiz to Park Row, you said. Do you remember the year you moved to Park Row? I would say possibly 24, 23, 24, 25. And when did you move from Park Row? 1962. And did you move here to this North Park?
I moved up this house in 1952. Were there a lot of homes on this street in 1952? They were all here with the exception of Blocking One or two rocks I saw On this table Of course, Pemberton was, I don't know what, it was pretty empty from there on out of it. Pretty empty. And of course, when we moved to the expressway we were just about to tell you about that dance, see? And we're still having a room road jitter, moved here, they said I've accepted, thanks to it. Oh. Okay. And right after he moved here, why they put in sewage. Now Pemberton's like, what, four or five blocks north?
One block north. No, one block north. That's right, okay. The Jenny Wolfe was on Punnettia. Right, right, right. And that was not developed in 1952? There was very little developed, more than another. this is more like the end of the road. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Have you always been a member of Sheriff's Office since Cummingsville? I've been a member of Sheriff's Office since 1980. Mm-hmm. I was still a single man when I joined it. Mm-hmm. I didn't get married in 1920. Mm-hmm. And I would say this without breaking up. It would be very unusual for a single man in 1918 to belong to the shore, to be a member of the shore.
I'd say, marry or something like that, and something like that. I don't remember any member that we had at that time that was single, that was single and was under 21 years of age. I was just about 21. How did you happen to join? Well, how I happened to join is because of the fact of my connection with Mr. Vestman. I'd have to tell you what he had with the Shoe. Would you like to comment on what he was involved in with the synagogue, with the Shoe? The synagogue, that's the angle you could possibly think of. That's the angle you could possibly think of. And his best friend in Labadine must have known somewhere in Europe that A.J.
Smith was an Irish Jew. I don't know where his husband got in. But however they knew each other from the old country where that was. I lived down to the shore on the caddy thing. And of course, I just want to pay very, very little attention after we, after we married the other castman, who had gotten a shoe business too, and I was there too. And we had another younger man who just started, Herbert Burtman. Do you remember him? Yes, I do. So between the three of us right there, we were everyone, and Bob Bannon, and I shouldn't say this, But there was a man that had a super-verdient, I told him I was asking, super-verdient.
But he paid no attention to his business or outside work, to the community. And of course, with A.J. Smith, he was very, very active. Cemetery and so forth and so on, the shul also. Between the two of them, I also missed the last one because he was very seldom putting a day of work at the show show. He left it all up to Alec Heston and myself, and to a certain extent to Harry Barsham. What were some of the things that Mr. Smith did for the show? You said he was very active. He did a lot for the show. What did he do? Well, he had a business of his own to take care.
There was enough work even for the cemetery to keep them busy, see? And I can't recall anything he'd done outstanding with Father Schubert from outside of the cemetery. And Mr. Zestman? Mr. Zestman, you name it. The Zionist organization or whatever it was, I don't care what the local needs were. He was interested. Was he always involved with the Zionist organization? I know he was involved with Jewish National Fund. As long as I can remember. As long as I can remember. And what about some of the things in the synagogue? What were some of the things that he did in the synagogue? Well, he was president one time.
He took it in another way. He was active in the synagogue. He was part of everything, everything contained to the Jewishness. He took care of it. I don't care what kind of, well, as I said before, he didn't pay no attention to his business. Everything was done to his community I don care what it was What are some of the Jewish organizations well before we go into organizations have you always only been a member of Sheriff Israel? How have you been involved with other Saint guys? Well a long time ago I paid my just dues at the Fairfield, and of course I gave it my building and I was not able to carry on where I had to be from there.
If I wasn't active, there was the attendance service and nothing, I just contributed. Is there any reason that you, was it just a matter of contributing to support the show then, is that it? Pardon? Why did you join? What was the thinking? How is it you joined here? I joined because of the fact that I felt like that they were a Jewish organization, and need some you know they all needed funds i don't care who it was you understand i felt like i could should contribute a certain amount of what i like to see but the big amount of hours when i contributed what are some of the jewish organizations you've been involved in or what organizations and since when organizations i've been involved or joined or belong to it first belonged to and then involved I was not involved in any of them as far as being involved with them.
I had designed it as a neighbor. I've been out of the neighbor for about 60 years anyway. There again was also doing it as a freshman. He said, you ought to belong here, you ought to belong there. He belonged to everything, see. But other than that, I contributed to any of it, to any great extent, to the best of my mouth and the best of my ability. When did you join the Zionist organization? Huh? When did you join the Zionist organization? I can't remember when it was, but I'll assure you it was at a pretty early age. And where are some of the other organizations you're a member of, other than B'nai B'rith?
And of course, you've got... None that I can remember. In fact, I had the email, and I just threw away the... Oh, shoot. My memory is terrible Are you still a member of YIVO No You spoke of the research I reached the point that I used to consider quite a few of the ushivas you understand In a smaller way, nothing to take away. But my income came to a point where I had to cut off something. Now you talked about the Jonathan Club. The Jonathan Club. The Jonathan Club was organized by Rabbi Gold, which in my opinion today, and no question about it, is the beginning of the Brotherhood of the Sheriff Israel.
We were doing exactly what a Brotherhood would do. But Rabbi Gold was responsible for it. And I was very, very active in the Jonathan Club, very active. In fact, I'm not bragging, and I gave up my time. I used to have some marvelous affairs. Maybe you've heard of it, maybe you knew about it. I used to, with the consent of course, address me, you understand? I used to contribute a lot of time to John's Cut. And when I reached the point that I couldn't give it any more time, that was the end of John's Cut. I mean, uh, Rose Mandel was very, very active. He passed away before I became an actor.
There's a Lou Cooper, but you don't know possibly, he might have to be, uh, he was very active in it there. But, uh, of course we had, uh, Max Rui was the first president of the Jonathan Club. And of course he had like Sam Roeback, he had the dream president. And I was always on the entertainment committee. We used to have some marvelous affairs, if I say so myself. And I looked up the other day, Lil gave me a card a long time ago showing the, the, what the cost was going to John, because I knew you didn't pay. I think six dollars, six dollars, you have a six dollars a couple.
About what year? Well, it's going back to 1930, 31, 32, 33. And I sit here and I think about how we were able to stage some of these affairs at hotels without any objection from the rabbis kind of not being kosher we hadn been What did they serve? Stakes. Stakes, and other fine food, and name banned, and everything else. And the rabbis never said anything about it being kosher or not? What did the people do who kept kosher? Was there a provision for them? Yes, I was together with a servant church. Did anyone meet with that kosher? I'd rather show you the hotel didn't have any separate dishes for that.
And therefore you're breaking the law of kosher right there. Today is a different story, too. Now Rabbi Gold organized the Jonathan Club about 1928, is that correct? Somewhere in that neighborhood, I can't say. I don't remember the year that he came here and the year that he left. very close to New York. I go, I visit him in New York. It was a great deal. And he was only living in New York. And when he was going to Bellevue, I saw him turning in psychiatry, or whatever it was. What? Oh, sorry. He was responsible for it, no question about it. And I still say that we were the beginning of brotherhood.
What were some of the things you did as far as the shul was concerned and were they only shul members well i was treasurer for two on two different presidents we were i was on the i'm talking to mr butler this is his second tape mr albert butler it is june the second 1983 and we are at his home um We have talked about a lot of things and we talked a little bit about Cherish Israel and what it was like as far as the synagogue was concerned, as far as the people were concerned. Who were some of the leaders in the synagogue when you joined in 1916?
Well, there was Mr. Winterman, and there was Harry Siegel, of course. Mr. Segal that lived in Old Cliff, I don't know which one he was, he had charge of the Sunday School for a while. That was Lewis Segal, wasn't it? Lewis Segal that lived in Old Cliff. Cross Eyes Vestma wasn't very active. A.J. Smith was active. Jed Green was active. My cousin Philip Gomansick was treacher. Mr. Holden, I think, was the name of the teacher that was quite active there, too. And, of course, Reverend Fromm was a cantor. Dave Green was very active. Now, amongst the women, does that mean anything? Yes, certainly. That's a little...
Mrs. Rosenberg. Which Mrs. Rosenberg? I don't know what her name was, but it was a Mrs. Rosenberg, though. Now, what did she do? She was in, I think she was the president of the Ladies' Auxiliary. And of course, 1918, when I joined 1915, and going back to 1915, the rabbi had just left there, and he was followed by, and then after the high holidays, he was followed by Rabbi by Boston, which I gave you a picture showing you was in there. I said yes. And there was, I'm trying to think of somebody else's. That's why they were bringing me. Of course, my first father was very active, too.
In what way were they active? Well they were just interested in any synagogue and they were doing would have to be done and so forth and so on And there was nobody that I can give you the present at that time but there was oh yes Oh, the name of this man right there was in the jewelry business, in the pawn shop business, and his son after he took all this present of the congregation. I got Goldstein. Hey, Goldstein! He was very active and so was his son. I don't know what his first name was, I think I'll give you a fair amount of people who were active.
I mean by active, I don't mean by just merely coming to synagogue, I'm talking about either the Gabbai's or whether they have a child or certain parts of the congregation, I don't know who they are. I know Treasure was my cousin, and I can't think of anybody right now to give you any more definite man. Now you mentioned Mr. Holden who was a Hebrew teacher at that time when you came. Now, was there a Hebrew school inside? No, there wasn't a Hebrew school. However, also, you used to have a group of men that used to lay in and learn after certain hours, and I gave you the name before, I guess.
There was also a Mr. Kleinman, that was Louis Kleinman's father, and there was Mr. Olivet, I know a little offhand, little fellow right there, he was a, not the old space, I can't think of the name. The son after he was very active with a, I mean, he worked for a polished paper company. I can't give you the name of the salary. Was it Schwift, perhaps? Who? Mr. Schwift. No, it wasn't Mr. Schwift. Borofsky? Mr. Borofsky, did he come later? No, I don't think so. What about Mr. Schwift? I understand that one of the Schwifts were... I didn't know Mr. Schwift, I didn't know him either.
He doesn't mean to go? Possibly some of his, but I know that he was. Dr. DeMuyell Johnson, sir. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Did I tell you about you asking about questions I tell you about the origination of the brotherhood the congregation congregation with the Jonathan Club which was started by Rabbi Gold Yes, yes, yes. You might want to tell us about the story behind that. Why did he name it the Jonathan Club? Oh, sorry. There was a club in California that didn't allow Jews to belong to the Lord, and the name of the club was the Jonathan Club. And that is what Rabbi Gold told us that we're going to call this the Jonathan Club because of the fact that we didn't allow our nationality in that club.
We called it the Jonathan Club. However, it may have had another meaning that I can't explain to you. What were some of the things the Jonathan Club did then, as far as their activities were concerned? They were active in any social events that were held in any way manner or fashion or formed by the synagogue. Then they had their affairs of their own. And of course, I hate to tell you this, and I shouldn't have listened to this. Why Rabbi Gold and all the following rabbis until the Jonathan Club disbanded never objected to us having our New Year's Eve affair at the hotel where kosher food was not served.
Because paper food wasn't served, but it wasn't kosher, see. However, there was anybody in the group that came to these outstanding affairs, and they were outstanding affairs. They kept kosher. If they wanted fish, why we ordered certain number of non-fish, fish orders, and so forth and so on. And there'll be also other activities at the Jonathan Club. During the summertime we'd use our picnics. We even went so far as having wrestling matches where we'd have the fellas like Sam Rovack or anybody in the business there where they had trucks would transport all this stuff out, let's say to White Rock Lake. And of course, when we had these affairs at the hotel, we had a few named bands, and the charges were so little it was pathetic.
How did you make money off of those? I think it was six dollars a couple. Did you make any money? Did you break even Were you coming in the hole We made a little bit of money They made a little bit of money because the Johnson Club didn make enough money to contribute to any real event of the synagogue outside of social let call it social pie They've done that, see. And, uh, we had the finest affairs that was ever held in this town, right? the Yman decorations always become the Idlewild Club used to, that was supposed to be the top Juntile Club in the town here.
And we had all the decorations and everything, we made arrangements with this woman and she saved them and had to use it for our affair right there. Terrific and definitely outstanding. That was held at the old Baker Hotel and also later on at the Adoptman. Were there any kosher facilities? Is it possible that there was no problem? There was no objection? There wasn't any hotel at that time that had any kosher facilities. There was no demand that was big enough because of the right population of the city of Dallas, the Jewish population of the city of Dallas. So there was no occasion. However, we never did serve what you put.
I said before, paper food. We have this paper that means ham, pork, or stuff like that for you. Or shrimps or anything like that. Of course, we would outline the menu before anything started. Do you have any idea what the Jewish population of Dennis was in those days, like 1915, 1918? I would make a guess possibly seven to eight thousand. Maybe ten, including the... I doubt what it was ten. The general population was ninety thousand. Okay. So, chances are we had eight thousand, not eight thousand by ten percent would be a big percentage. Yes, yes. If we haven't got ten percent today, chances are we haven't got five.
Yes. The national average at one time was two percent. You are, so... Or whatever that's worth. Anyway, um... do you... were you, um... Excuse me, sir. Would you have... Yes, sir. We talked about the Johnson Club. We had a lot to do with the 75th anniversary here that Shul had. What were some of the things did you do? Uh... uh... you name it, outside of it, editing the book and so forth. So, no anything pertaining to socialism. Did you give dances? I took care of them. Okay. What were some of the things that you took care of? Well, first of all, we had, I can hardly explain anything in other words, the general program, the social standpoint, is obtaining music and so forth and so on, if necessary.
I can't outline it right now, it just came like I gave you a letter the other day, it outlined in the defense guard. Today I can't give you a word of it. I reviewed a book. When did the Jonathan Club disband? I'd say that it was founded in 1955, 54, 55. It was the fact that Bloomer and Del was very active and I was very active and I had to give up. And when we gave these affairs, I used to die as a little two and three weeks in my town. I didn't work. Putting on these affairs. And Mrs. Now you're asking Mrs. Weil, that is not there, always took care of reservations for us.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which Mrs. Weil? That wasn't Izzy Weil. living though his wife passed away okay i can't think of name what is his name maxwell maxwell mrs maxwell okay she used to do the reservations he said you could have all reservations and everything else you can't do so you got the women involved a little bit maybe not in that no the low man down and myself at that took care of the social element, and the social and preparation for everything. Also, we always give, always give way favors with all that, and I mean, there were something that cost 50, 75 cents to us, you understand, that would cost maybe a dollar, dollar and a half if you bought out what I said What kind of favors It could be anything It could be maybe an ashtray or something you understand but it just a little different than a rather big ashtray or maybe a fountain pen you understand but something that was useful, even in the house, or maybe a vase or vase or whatever you want to call it.
Okay. But we'd buy it wholesale and it would cost us any less than 35 cents to 50 cents. But I had a card here somewhere showing the cost of each affair. I think it was either six dollars a couple or six dollars. Must have been six dollars a couple, I think. It wasn't six dollars a person. That was too much money. About what year was that? That's going back to 1942, I think. I'm like, no, no, what year, going back to 19, when the high 30s at first, number 20, he was here in 1928, Rabbi Goldberg in 1928, so I say from 1930 and 1950, to what I said before.
When you came to Dallas and through the years, I know you affiliated with Sheriff Israel, Is that always where your affiliation was? Were you a member of any other temple during those years? For a while I was able to. I belonged to the Fairfield, and I was a friend to serve with the committee. And I also attended to the good of shopping. I didn't attend, I contributed a small amount. Of course, in those days it was a small amount, a small amount, a big amount. But I was very, very friendly with Rabbi Brumowitz of the... What's any guy, did I say? A good esophant. A good esophant, I believe.
He always... every time I'd see him, I'd say, What's my good deeds? So, Manny Hoppenstein was a relation of his. Every time I see Manny Hopstein, he would tell you, he was a uncle, I think. He would tell you, he was not like, oh, Mr. Butler. You know, you might say it wasn't a common expression, but you gotta get a walk there. Yes. But who uses it? Yes, yes. The same when I greeted Rabbi Rabbi which he had never forgotten I used to go every Saturday When I was around the door, I was out in faith in Shabbat Shalom. I'm known for that for Harrington.
Would you translate that? Go ahead, translate it. A healthy and happy Shabbat Shalom. Our Gesundheit is healthy and happy Shabbat Shalom. Oh boy, I guess every year is that. He's known me for that. Every time he sees me he says, I just don't prepare for much of that. What are some of the other... One thing else. Why did you, or how did you happen to join Gurusakam and the Theret Vigil High? I didn't actually join him. I contributed to call me the cheapest device member, more or less, yesterday. Right. Of course I was not active in the B'nai B'rith, but I belonged to B'nai B'rith, so right now I feel close to the U.S.
What were some of the other organizations that you were involved in? Well, we had the Abba the Ring, which I didn't belong to, you see. They had the, uh, uh, oh, what's it, the Chulene Star, there was one of them. the hebrews will alone yeah i still belong to that team he's from local organization yes there are no other local organizations that i i belong to can you tell us a little bit about the hebrew free loan association i can't tell you anything about it i don't think he'll give you all the information you don't want about that i know his father was instrumental in either organizing or starting over a minute that's it there now the golden egg is from that the Hebrew free loan was the forerunner no no no no no I bet you thought I got the wrong wrong thing I don't know who was responsible for as a polycorp started something in them that was going anybody go the naked is all right um Do you remember there was a foundation that was built next to the synagogue Can you tell us about that a little bit?
I understood. I didn't know. I understood. I'm glad you asked that question. I understood they wanted to add an addition there. And due to the fact that it could not stand its foundation, there was water underneath there. They had to pass it up. And I remember this very distinctively at that time. Harry Segal was one of the instigators of it. And possibly I sublots him. I'm not too sure, but I think that was it. But the city wasn't allowing the building underneath there. on that because there wasn't the there was water underneath there why they allow them to build the at the park avenue synagogue i don't know but adjoining that there must have been a creek or something there was that did that have anything to do with the hebrew school did they have anything no plans for you just doing anything i mean as far as the uh the building there yes it could have been a hebrews for one end of this one what about your music for i don't know okay okay now what are some of your civic and cultural affiliation affiliations well for a long while i belong to evil institute new york of course i belong to the land as all the races still do I belong to the Hall of Independent Society, as my father's organization.
My father belonged to us, and while I haven't been active, I contributed a small amount of money every year to keep it up to you. There's still me just in fact. My father was buried in New York, and there was a cemetery as part of the cemetery, Cycler Hill Cemetery. No, actually Bayside Cemetery, but my father was there. My father passed away at 47. I was nine years old at that time. Um, we had talked a little... Now, we had talked a little bit about the YMHA and the building of the gym. Well, the YMHA was a takeover from the Yelp Club. A group of men took them over.
Alex Segal, Louis Narvin, Mr. Winderman, practically all of the Louis Arnish, Abe Arnish, there's quite a few like them that may take a ball of their names, that took over the Elskjub for one purpose. All of these people liked to play cards. It wasn't the real gambling, but it was a gathering for those people where they had to work, where they'd get together and play cards mostly. And I don't know of anything else they'd ever done. I didn't belong to a tree. And at least the time, at least the point where they felt like they didn't need that. They gave it to the YMH. That's when the YMHA built that gymnasium at 4C.
As I said before, I think it was previously that the ones who were responsible for the building of the gymnasium team. And I remember the first athletic director we had, that was a free director who worked camp. Let's back up. When they bought that from the Elks Club, were they the ones that named it the Parkview Club? Do you know anything about why they named it the park? I don't know. Maybe because of the sort of faking the park, the view of the park, maybe that's it, I don't know. Faking City Park. Yes, yes. Very good. With the YMHA now, you started to say the first athletic director was Bert Tan.
Can you tell us a little bit, have you been trained in physical education? We used to play a lot of volleyball then. We used to play a lot of indoor baseball. Outside of that, there was nothing else. There wasn't any such thing as physical exercise. I was just a game, that's all. Where's the action, though? Were the newcomers... Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. Pardon? There must have been people coming from Europe. Were the new people involved in that program as well? I would say not what the winery says. Not what the winery says. Because the average farmer that came into this town at that time was either a peddler or he had some kind of little business of his own you understand but he wasn athletic The gymnasial was of young people who wanted to participate in athletics.
Oh, that's like what the YMCA does, but they already have different schedules. We didn't have all those. We didn't have the swimming pool and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, right. Right, right. Now, the people that you had named in the leadership of Sheriff Israel, were these people first generation? Or had they come from Europe themselves? Every one of them were not born in this country. Where did most of them come from, would you say? I would say most of them come from Lithuania, from Poland, Russia, if you want to see. Very few of them came from any other place that I know of. Any of them?
Were any from Poland? The president of A.J. Smith came from Ireland. Yes. Were any from Poland? Pardon? Were any of them from Poland? I wouldn't be out of the island until Poland was one of them. I classify them over the world. Yeah, right. Oh, all right. That, I wanted, you know, specific. Okay. Do you know why they left? What was the general reason for leaving at that point in time? I imagine some of them had fallen through the site. They had to go into service for some of it, and a lot of it, you understand? They had in part, they had relations, living somewhere in the United States, but they brought them over to Ellis Island mostly, and some into Galois.
I don't know any other port whether he ever came in, but I would say they were all foreign born, to put it that way. Now, of course, after we were told, you got your second and third generation, that's something else. Right. What were some of those changes that you would like to note that have happened over the years in terms of the civic or the Jewish organizations? Right. Some of the changes that you've seen over the years in the organizations, the Jewish organizations. Well the expansion for number one like the Jewish Community Center like the Golden Ages I would say that all the expansion real expansion that we had in the city of Downward.
Of course, I knew Andrew Eagle School was the new sound section, which I hadn't seen in Moons and Barrett. I know there's actually an advancement right there. Of course, don't forget, I, when I joined, I, our show was on Jackson Street, and we moved to Park Avenue, I was seeing that, and of course to the Douglas and Wall of Hill Lake. That's a change of street. And I'm seeing the change into Fair Israel, Grand Avenue, and Grand Avenue and, I don't know what the name of that street was, Starks Street, one block off of Harwood. Edgewood, I believe. near edgewood yeah and i've seen the temple from early street to south boulevard now through hill crest and northwest highway do you happen to know when the temple moved to south boulevard temple moved west when did it move from irby to south boulevard what year i would say i would make a guess and made that move possibly in nineteen early 40s no from irvy street to south boulevard was in the teens pardon from irby street to south boulevard was in the i'd say that part of the 19 uh the high 20s Okay.
Now, tell me, where were your addresses when you came to Dallas? Where did you live? I first lived on St. Louis Street. They can't do the address. Between what streets? Right around the corner from Marion Street. Okay. Is that Marion Street, did that become accurate? Is that possible? No. No? Where did Marion Street? That became part of the three-way, you know, the subway. And there we moved at the 1211 Cater Street. Oh, how long did you live on St. Louis? About how long? About a year or so before we moved up to Louis Simon, lived at 1211 Cater Street. He lived upstairs and he lived downstairs, you see.
Okay, about what was the area? I would say 1917 16 or 17 And between what streets on Caties Do you remember what it is Caties between Marion and Browder which started on the south side Okay. On the south side, yes. West, maybe? No, south side, yes. But that direction was north. North Dallas, the south Dallas, see. That's the south. Okay, I see what you're saying. Okay. Okay. Okay. And then 19... 19... it was 1932, and 1932, I moved to 29, 24 Park Road. In 1932 I moved here. Oh, okay. Yeah, I think. Okay. Were those... now, the first houses on it, St. Louis, was that an apartment, or was that a house?
Anybody might call them duplexes. Okay. Lordshard lived downstairs and we lived upstairs. Okay. Was it brick or was it wooden? I'm sure it was wooden. Okay. What about on Cady's? On Cady's Street, that was also wooden. Was it also a duplex or was it an apartment? What type of housing? Probably lived downstairs in the two-story house. Okay. Duplex, two apartments? Two apartments? Oh, a duplex. They used a duplex. Okay, what about when you moved on Park Road? Well, we bought a house there. We bought a house there and that's it. What type of house? Was it wood or brick? Oh, it was actually wood. Mm-hmm.
You had a seeded block of tools. And this is brick, is that correct? I was right there. Would you like to have a general membership in relation to you? In what way? You said when you joined the Shul, you were the youngest member? I was the only... I can't... I don't know any other member, it was 21 years or even younger, that joined the Shul that was single. And I don't recall that any father had their son join it. In other words, that was under 21 years old and wasn't married. Maybe after they were married, it was another story. Yes, yes, yes, yes. What about your family structure over the years?
When you came to Dallas, what about your family structure? Did you and your mother live in the household, and your sisters, or did you have outside borders that your mother took in? At one time, at one time, we did have, remember, we lived on Cater Street, after my sister passed away, Zesma had a sister before she was married in Russia, wherever they came from, see, was courting his sister. He came to this, his name was Barwin. He stayed with us, see. He boarded with us for a while. Of course, his sister was still living in the old country and they already married, see. But that's the only boarder we had for a little while, and that was all.
About how long did he live with them? Less than a year. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Were there boarding houses for people, for bachelors and young ladies that came? I would say that there were quite a few homes that took in people that came from Europe, single people that came from Europe, as boarders. How did they make these arrangements? There was no specific way other than the fact that maybe some friend, in other words. Now, you take Little's husband, Sam Robach. When he came to this town right here, he stayed with Mrs. Louie Clemmon. It was Louie Clemmon's, well, you can't say mother after the second marriage. He stayed with it.
Some of them stayed with the, with the, also the Climons, the Tom Climons family. They lived on Marriott Street also, before the, not quite around St. Louis. We had the Rudeburgs, because they didn't have anybody, because they had plenty of people. Oh yeah, they had people. uh, uh, uh, um, but Lois Tobin's wife and his sister, and her sister lived with the road works. They had lost their mother and father, I think. That where Lois Tobin was courting Mrs Ida Franklin And the other Franklin girl I think married Frankenstein that had the national job with her. Over that time, he was working as a settlement for E.M.
Camp before he opened the shoes for the wood as he wore. Did Finkelstein change his name? Sure, the fielding. Do you know how those things came about? How did that happen? Don't ask me. Okay. Okay. Because neither one of them belonged to the sheriff. Okay. How did they find, you don't know how they found these homes to live in, then? Or do you? The only way they found those homes, there wasn't any registry anywhere or something like that. It was through somebody that they knew somewhere or other, know where I could find a place to stay. And they say, well, I think Mr. So-and-so or Mrs.
So-and-so would like to have you. They were satisfied to them. Why don't you contact them? I understand that they might be interested. But no specific, like, anybody's organization, hey, you want a place to stay on here, we've got a list here. I know that was out of fact. Well, the person who wanted the people to stay, or would let people stay as boarders, did they let it be known? Did they say... They were ashamed of us, because after all, they were all in hard circumstances. I don't know where Hank Hoover was. Okay. And they needed that help. Okay. They had the room for it. Okay.
Evidently they had the room for it and they needed that help and that was it. I needed the help and I usually, in fact, tonight he used to sleep with me. The same bed, see. And a lot of that went on too. Wasn't the question of getting a room. That was out. Uh-huh. Down to the street. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So as long as they had bed space. Okay. What about chores around the house housework household helping How was that arranged House helping around the house People helping around the house Did they have people that came in Oh yeah What different circumstances did your mother do it herself My mother done all of it on Taylor Street and all.
When we moved to Park Row, in back of the home right there, we had a garage and a big room upstairs. two car garage. We used to have a maid who used to live there. We used to pay her two and a half dollars a week. And this room, of course, she paid I think a dollar a week for electricity and for water and so forth and so on. So it used to cost her a dollar a week, kind of sense, her and her husband lived there, but she worked for us for two and a half a week. That was in the thirties? That was in the high 20s up to 1950, let's say.
Well, now... 48.50. Did she... How much did she get paid and how much did she... Two dollars and a half a week. In the 40s? In the 40s and the 30s, too. Okay. Okay. And somebody would call it all hours of the day and night, and that's any time. Were there times that she would be called to help at something that night when she was off? Anytime we needed that she was there. Well, she took care of the house and so forth and so on. That's all I said. My mother fell down and broke her hip and we had somebody staying at the house with her.
And she was in the room by herself. It just so happened. We had three bedrooms in the house. It was unusual then. Some of them were very, very tiny, but they were three big ones. And what was the name of the grocery here that's famous? They had the Tom Thumb took them over. Colum? Huh? Was it Colum? You mean they took Colum, took over Piggly Wiggly? Tom Thumb took over the grocery business on Preston Road now, but they were then... Oh, Fisher. No, it wasn't Fisher. I know who you're talking about. I can't think of the name. We bought his home, see. Okay. And he built a bigger home a little further down in Park Road.
Okay. Isn that something I think she living in Okay I know you talking about her Was he Jewish Pardon Was he Jewish Oh yes she belonged to the temple However, she was not Jewish. I mean she was Jewish, but the temple is in some small town like that. Her parents were fairly orthodox, let's call it that. In other words, she was Jewish, she wasn't converted. Oh, no, she was Jewish. Okay. She was Jewish. That's funny, I can't think of the name in the story, you know what I'm talking about, see. I'll come to the plate. Well, let's go on, maybe you'll think about it. Now what about your occupation?
Have you always had the same occupation? Well, you told me about that. Have you always had the same occupation down the street? She'll be in the good restaurant. When you came in? All night south. Now, was there any intermarriage in your family? Intermarriage in our family? No intermarriage. It was all tight. One of those other marriages, very about Orthodox people. Kept the state culture home. Living in New York, you understand? Mm-hmm. But I had my sister's brother, and that's all I had, see. Has he still remained Orthodox? Pardon? has he still remained orthodox your brother over the years what he remained orthodox he's very active in lake kiawasa the jewish he passed away because his wife kept certain coaching what are some of the things that you've seen in the jewish community as far as the changes the only thing i've seen up to the present day that they there was a time that i would say doing my activity at the synagogue.
I knew practically every Yehuda in this town. But in the last 15 years, I say, even though it was attending synagogue, half the people I didn't know. Are they newcomers? Are they people that have come to share us from other congregations? I'm the only newcomers, because I don't care who it was that was here years ago when I first joined right there, even the second generation I know, see. If they had any activity or they ever attended, or their parents ever attended, Sheriff Israel, why I would know them or see even when the Jonathan Club gave them the Fed, it wasn't just a Sheriff Israel, it gave them to the whole city.
So in other words, I would know people from that angle. I would say I know a majority of people in the city of Dallas prior to the advent of the newcomers coming to town. If they had any connection at all with the sheriffism. Is there anything in particular that you've been involved in over the years that you've seen the change in and what has taken place and what has caused some of the change? Nothing else than what I explained before. If you were to say what you were most involved in... The synagogue. Why? I just felt that it was my duty to devote as much time as I possibly could and do as much as I possibly could.
And that's it, for no good reason. Why didn't I attend the B'nai B'rith meetings like I should have? Why didn't I, after obtaining my Masonic work, why didn't I go after a certain number of years I taught Masonic work see And after a certain number of years why I gave that up for no good reason I gave it up see I uh I was uh I taught Masonic works for a good number of years See, in those days, we had to go down to Waco to get our certificate to teach. I didn't come here. Never will forget it. I went down with Henry Eli one day to get my first certificate.
Went down to the Grand Lodge in Waco, and there was a certain lecture that had to be given in order to complete the deal. And there was fifteen minutes left of the lodge close at ten o'clock, and the instructor says, well, you'll have to come back tomorrow. We don't have time for you to give me this lecture. I said, I can give it to you in that time. So, I gave it to him. And for years and years thereafter, that same instructor used to come to Dallas, and every time he came to Dallas he'd ask certain Masonic people, which I would still like to hear in Dallas.
Do you know Brother Butler? Yeah. He's the fastest-talking son of a gun that ever came to my life. Boy, I'd riddle it off. That's great. Do you hear some of the things, any other things you'd like to tell us about, and some of the pictures and papers and some of the things that we are... We don't have anything that I can tell you about. Okay. Nothing. Okay. Thank you.