Arthur Ungerman
Arthur Ungerman was born at the old St. Paul Hospital in Dallas. His parents grew up around the corner from each other in St. Joseph, Missouri, where his grandfather, who had escaped conscription in the Balkans, settled to work as a watchmaker and jeweler. His grandfather believed St. Joseph would prosper because of the Pony Express, but the town remained small. Determined to educate his children, he sent them all to college. Arthur's mother earned a degree in drama from the University of Chicago in the 1920s, and his father became an attorney. His family eventually moved to Dallas, in part because his father disliked the cold Missouri winters.
Arthur's father practiced law in a partnership with his brother, and Arthur followed in his footsteps, working at the family law firm. His mother pursued a career in the arts, giving book reviews and teaching elocution, and she profoundly shaped Arthur's love of culture, literature, and refined manners. He recalled early encounters with anti-semitism, including a frightening childhood incident in the Lakewood neighborhood when a caretaker named Lillie Mae protected him, and prejudice he faced during the World War Two years. He described the migration of Dallas Jewish families from South Dallas northward into the Park Cities and later Preston Hollow.
Arthur was a founding member of Henry Monsky AZA, formed with other young men when he was growing up. He belonged to several congregations over his lifetime, including Shearith Israel, where he attended Sunday school as a boy, and Temple Shalom, which his first wife Judy chose after it was started by Sol Besser. At Temple Shalom he chaired a committee that succeeded in making yarmulkes available to worshippers. He married Judy in Oklahoma City in January 1961 and was married for 48 years until her death. He later remarried Helen, of Greek Orthodox background, in a blended Greek and Jewish ceremony. Arthur spoke lovingly of his children and grandchildren and of the annual grandfather sleepover adventures he shared with them.
Full Transcript
I do tend to smile a lot so I'm Nancy Angermann i will be interviewing arthur Ungerman today today is jun 17 9 2011 Arthur where are we born I was born in st. Paul hospital the old st. Paul hospital and at the time I thought the nursing facilities were excellent because all of the nuns were the nurses but that has changed today see your parents born here to know my parents were born in st. Joe Missouri in fact they grew up around the corner from each other and in my grandfather's house was right around the corner from where my mother my mother's gram my mother's family was around the corner from my father's family what brought them to Dallas well my grandfather tells tells the story that he escaped from the Balkans i believe it was either estonia or latvia but he escaped because he was about to be drafted in the Army and he told me that he choose the Jews were drafted in the Army immediately because they were put on the front line and they were the ones to be killed immediately and protect the other people and that was my one of my first probably first encounters with anti-semitism as it was in my grandfather's time so your grandfather moved to Dallas first before you're paranoid and father moved directly to st.
Joe Missouri and my grandmother moved to st. Joe Missouri when oh that was probably the late 1800s and so what got your families to Dallas well before we got to dallas i mean let me explain why my grandfather and pick st. Joe Missouri oh very small city grandfather told me that he felt he had nothing he didn't have any money and nothing and he felt that that was the place to be because he could make his fortune in st. Joe Missouri and I asked him how was that going to come about and he said st. Joe Missouri is located one half way between the East Coast and the west coast and we have the Pony Express and this is the station and one day they'll build a bigger station and because the Pony Express was so important of course as history would it would have it my grandfather's prediction was wrong because Western Union came in and today st.
Joe's exactly like it was in the late eighteen hundreds my grandfather also I said well what business were you in and he said well I'm a watchmaker and a jeweler and I know how to fix watches and I he had a skill that always likely to how to fix the watches but he told me you know he says you can't make any money fixing watches and he says I had to send three children to college and they did all graduated and he said lovely just your mother one of issues my mother who attended the University of Chicago in the 1920s we not women even went
to college and she went to the University of Chicago got a degree in drama and his Nancy knows the apple doesn't fall far from the tree as I am my mother's son and she got a degree in drama and explain called an expression and teaching and the arts in any event he sent all of the and probably people watching this remember my uncle Arthur Goldberg who was well very well known in the Jewish community here and just passed away a few years ago so in any event they left my dad picked up and my mother and moved to Dallas reason they moved to Dallas my
father told me is because it was so cold and st. Joe and he never wanted to be in cold climate again and all the way through the time I was growing up people would complain because we didn't have air conditioning in the early days never complained a hot it was and shrine he said no he says I moved here because I didn't want the cold and that's why that's why my family is here and he can't get too hot for me and I sort of take after him I love to eat I love Dallas in the summer interesting that's very interesting what was your father's profession my father was an attorney and he had a partnership
with his brother my younger men and was the name of the partnership was on bereman hill Ungerman and angrist and they had started this back in the items in the 1930s and that was that's what they did tell the day everybody as to what they were attorneys and your mother had a mini career actually yes my mother was very steep to course in the arts and she would she would give book reviews in fact her big competitor who went on I would my mother I never tell this if she was alive but who went on to become very famous was Evelyn Oppenheimer and Evelyn Appa
higher and my mother used to do a circuit and give the book reviews she also gave lessons at the house they for allocution lessons and she also would have all these pretty girls coming over there and I asked her can I can I get in the class I would like you to teach me how to talk and how to breathe from the diaphragm and all the things that she was teaching him of course that was not my real reason for being in the class and that's where I made friends with a lot of the girls early on I that's one of them one of the
ways in and stopped since so did you carry on the legal practice I in those days you really did which parents told you to do and there came a time in my life that my father decided that it was time for me to go to work and he said you were going you a field which is a Khom park village and had a absolutely fantastic time there there was still that was during the war and there it was a me any Semitism was everywhere during World War two because the sentiment was that it was the Jewish people that have caused all the trouble we would
not have to have gone to war if it wasn't for the Jewish people and that was the line and some of the kids grew up believing that of course it was absolutely absurd but that's what happened and in reality I believe America stayed out of the war a little too long so i did lose any Semitism there and it stayed it stayed there all the way through through the war any other experiences with anti-semitism that was probably the most prevalent because everything was about the war everything you were growing up at that time in the 40s it was all about the war and you would
go to the village theater the will have to digress before we left our cousin Nancy says we left a part of my growing up out before we moved talk to tamaki Bertolini Lamu Alto we lived and we move from South I we lived in this wonderful little house on Casa Loma in back of the Lakewood country club and and at that time I went to preschool in lakewood and it was just as fabulous neighborhood and it was just like picturesque and I was just cleaning there was only one problem I was told at the school that they had a game and the game with the
Lakewood rats and they used to scare me and say the lake hood rats would catch all the little Jewish boys and they would do bad things to them and I said and I said though you just trying to scare me and I came home and I told Lily Mae who by the way was other men took care of myself and my my sister and live long enough to take care of my children that's how long she was with us so I told her and she said don't worry about it you don't have to worry I said good I like to play in the vacant lot
across a right next door to our house Lillie Mae usually was stationed in the kitchen and they had windows and you could see into the vacant lot lo and behold one day I'm playing there minding my own business and they appear of nowhere and there's the game the liquid right and they're carrying this big rope and they take the rope and just just like in the westerns and they throw the load there was a big tree there over the limb and they say we're going to take care of you a little Jewish friend or something you know something like that and we're going to hang
you and Lily Mae was looking through the window and I was about that I don't know what I did but she saw what was going on now in those days we didn't have these little Teflon frying playing pants we had cast iron skillets and she grabbed that cast-iron skillet she ran out of the house she got right in front of all of them and I mean they could have attacked her to attacked us in a minute and she said just like John Wayne I want to know who is going to walk up and touch Arthur first because that's the first of many broken heads that
will happen this is a steal this is a skillet can't start break one fell swoop I can break your head with it let me taught me a lesson after that she said Arthur she said bullies are the most cowardly people alive and of course they turned and ran and who disappeared and I never forgot that all bullies of really are cowards and after that that and they must have had a meeting because that vacant lot was off limits to the lake hood rats as long as I live there good old Lily a good story growing up from word go from your youngest years what were
your Jewish affiliations well I guess the probably the first one was the aza and I went to Hana park after a bradfield and I was asked to be part of a formation of the ACA and there were five or six of us and they told me they're going to form a chapter and the chapter was going to be called Henry musk so I was one of the founding members of Henry Mon ski along with since tall and and Donnie sale in Arnold sweet and wonderful people Charlie Ross and Ralph Kelman and so we formed that AZ a group now you have to understand a lot
of pull the kids today don't understand that when the flight from South Dallas started about that time and all of the Jewish families had no place to go unless they went to Lake hood but they wanted to go north and by going north that meant that went to Holland Parker university park because there was no question call everything stopped at northwest highway so the schools were had a huge Jewish population that's the hunkar junior high on Park High School and it was only natural that we would come together but a breath came in and told set up his AZ a group and helped us set
it up because we have more than enough people that were interested in joining it joining this and is that but when I tell people that the younger people that I did say but I thought there was no Jewish people in a hot on park and of course it was almost the majority at one time and I like to tell the story that eventually in the early 50s they opened up Preston Hollow and what did Jewish people dead they moved out a home park and they went north and the new homes were built with air conditioning my father had to admit it was nicely with air
conditioning and without her petition and they had built and they had electric stoves and all of that came in in the 50s so the Jewish people you know being what they are they gravitated out and they moved out north that was out north and they left and some people would wags would say too much to the relief of a lot of my friends that still stayed there and in fact it's true because all my friends moved into their parents house in Park Cities when their parents died and they're going to have their children to move in there when they died because that was because thatthat's
are like a Holy Grail do you ever have thoughts when you pass your house on mockingbird of some day living there I had those thoughts up until the time of what they call the great recession and the market fell out and I was a victim and I no longer could have those thoughts anymore it would have been impossible what temples or synagogues have you gone to in belong to in here all right starting from log starting down south dallas it was sheriff is Roman sheriff is one was located in south dallas and of course i have my early memories of going to sheriff Israel one
of the things I enjoyed was that across the street from sheriff is what was this beautiful park which i believe is city park today and during the high holidays especially with my cousin Jay we would leave sheriff Israel and we would go play in the park and never to be seen until it was time when they were singing the last song and come back into the service but it was a great place the surroundings which is beautiful and I remember the one of the early rabbis was feared by all I think that was rabbi gold and he was sort of a city probably the nicest
kind of the world because scared all of us and then I believe there was a rabbi Weiss Feld who was it just a just a charming lovely lovely man who's he's just everybody gray he everybody loved him so I went to sheriff Israel in those days and until they moved the course to where they are today on Douglas but I had a lot of memories of sunday school there and in fact the way we got to Sunday school to sheriff Israel is that the bus would pick us up in front of the village theater and on Sunday morning and they would drive us to South
Dallas and that's how we got to Sunday school every Sunday that's the lot of memories because the most fun was not Sunday School and most fun was going on the bus and raising a lot of cane on the bus going and coming back and that was that was just a ball because there was nobody no supervision there's just the Buster Iranian paying attention to what we were doing so that was a lot of fun going on the bus back and forth any other congregations yeah well eventually although my family was insured had been members of Sheriff Israel and I had been a member cereth Israel
after I got married I switched over to Temple Shalom and at the time Temple Shalom was in the North Haven church that's where it started and Sal besser of course started Temple Shalom and it was in that little church and well if you don't tell a rabbi cherez Israel but really happen is that my wife said you know I'm not sure if I want the kids to go to Hebrew school and I said well they're going to Hebrew school take over share of Israel and she says well what about this new temple temple lodge for long I said well I know a lot of my
family a lot of my cousins no solid esser and I believe went to a blue star camp with and many years ago and I said I think it's going to be a little liberal a little more liberal than what we are used to and she says all i care about is her school i said i don't think there's any hebrew school there that's a compulsory she says we're joining and she picked up the phone call all song and said Saul we are joining my we're leaving sheriff is 0 and we're joining Temple Shalom and the next thing I knew I was a temple sholom at
the North Haven church was about thought was kind of funny so and my actually my son was born is for their in Temple Shalom so that was my other affiliation Judy that that's your wife yes that was my wife she passed away two years ago that's correct and so I stayed at Temple Shalom and then did you join another congregation I rejoined another congregation oh no I draw I did joint enough but it was temple emanuel so i went from temple i forgot all about template- it was a short very short period of time that I went there but I actually rejoined sheriff Israel and
I did that because my son got married in sheriff Israel and I felt that that it would be better if i was in the same congregation because of my family my history of the family cherith israel and so I just we just moved back to share this role and I'm still a member of Sheriff Israel but we tell you one thing about temples for loan that is when we did join saleh desert said Arthur said I'm going to put you on a committee because I know you and you seem to have a good personality and calm people down and I'm gonna put you on the
most contentious committee that we have here and you will be co-chairman German and your co-chairman will be your opposite and I said well what did what is the committee he says it's the religious committee but there is a subcommittee and the issue is do we support people wearing yarmulkes in Temple Shalom and if we do then we should have a box where the yarmulkes are available to people I said oh my god I said you gotta be kidding I said that's going to be that's a huge issue and he says that's why I'm putting you in charge and with your cold coke you're a co-chairman
I said that's okay so i did of course i love I didn't tell it but i love i love doing so i just went crazy when i got there because the guy will remain unnamed i don't know if he's still living so what protect his identity and he just if you've ever been in one of the committee meetings that a synagogue or a temple you know what happens and he was just absolutely against putting any box against people wearing yarmulkes against this against and he says no this is a this is a reform temple and so i'll never forget i had i was ready for
him and I stood up before all of the members of the committee and I said let me tell you something mr. cult mr. Jones let me tell you something mr. Jones I said there will be a box there and people will have a choice and it is narrow-minded people like you that inhabit different synagogues and different temples that caused the issue but by God we're going to have one here because this is a free-thinking temple and I made this huge speech and everybody got up and they started clapping and these are people that came from you know from all different kinds of temples everywhere story PS to this day which I did take my my present wife and to show her they do have at that time they put the cardboard box they have a beautiful
wooden gorgeous wooden box when you walk in and it's overflowing with yarmulkes right at the doorway and I pointed it out and I said this is my legacy at box how did you mean your first life well I met my first wife actually at a party at my aunt edith house on labor day and I understood and I think maybe nancy was the one that said won't be sure and come to this party because there's a girl from Oklahoma City that's coming in and I want you to meet her and I said okay and but i have to tell you a little background because just
before the party on Labor Day I had just come back hitchhiking around Europe and this ties into my father at one point in time when I got back saying you know you're going to go I pass the bar by the end you're going to go to work at the law firm and you're going to get married I mean that was you minded your parents in those days I Duke lead to things about it so it was just sort of it was what's the what's the get some work for faint be sure and I walk in and I meet Judy males at the party and we
get along famously and I said why don't you come in for Texas Oklahoma weekend wasn't too far off and she says no she says I have a better idea she said why don't you drive toklas city I said why would it be driving to Oklahoma City with when the gay texas-oklahoma game is going on that weekend she says well one reason is there's no traffic you'll be going against the traffic I said well that sounds logical and so I drove to Oklahoma City against the truck wasn't one car going to Oklahoma they're all coming into dallas and i walk in the house and she introduces
me to her you know to her parents and her father comes up as honest god true story and shakes my hand and he says Mazel Tov and I said what I just you know met you I said that's a nice thing to say he says I'm saying it because I understand you're going to get engaged to my daughter and that's how it happened how long were you married Arthur well what you ought to ask me and how long was it since how many times did I see or a dater until the wedding January 29th in Oklahoma City well that too well I think it I
think she may have come down once or twice so that's it and the wedding was all planned and was in the skirvin hotel that was snow it was snowing and all my family came up on the train and this was january twenty nine nineteen sixty one and they all came this 300 people and i had just seen her two or three times when we got married but I've listened to my father and by the way I had started working right after the party and it is I started working at the law firm I said this is what dad wants so might as well just you
know go on with it and I went along with it for 48 years until she passed away and as a lot of people know that we're probably at the funeral she passed away the day after our 48th wedding anniversary huh and I told the story with the rabbi and I was up there and I told the story Judy was pretty I did strong mindedness everybody that knew Judy spoke to her friends call to the Tooth Fairy and she and I knew that week and she wasn't going to make it but the 29th was coming up and it was a snowstorm and it was freezing and
Judy hated hated cemeteries but she really hated them in the bad weather and I knew that she was not going to leave during that snowstorm and sure enough she stayed held on and then finally at the end of the week and it was January 29th and I knew that nothing was going to happen until the next day and as I told hundreds of people that came to the funeral that with her friends I I do have someone a reputation for sometimes being late to various events and I'm not one thing I don't do is go to the hospital early in the morning that's not a
big thing so I figured out she figured out I would be there as it and approximately twelve o'clock I was early and for me and I showed up at twelve o'clock in the hospital the day after our anniversary and at that time I showed up and then she passed away and I are your role models aren't there you mean in the community or in the Jewish community can be the Jewish community could be life you know in your who are the people that you admire the most well the people that form me that made me and made my personality i believe is my mother and
my father my mother took me when I was young too all of the cultural events and doubts and we went to the symphonies we went to the theater and I came to the ballet and I grew up under her tutelage and she got me interested in the literature everything to do with the arts and I was fascinated with it because I noticed a lot of my friends really kind of thought the strange that I went to all of the instead of being out there playing football or go to the symphony or something like that so she really formed a lot of my and she also
taught me how to dress and she was in charge of that and she says you're not looking like yellow to other people they're all were in short pants you're going to wear long pants and that's the way she was you're never going to eat on a paper plate he will always eat on regular plates he will not use plastic knives and forks you will use regular knives forks so when you're young and you grow up like that you continue to continue to cut my pizza with a knife and fork but I don't pick it up in my hand which most people find reducing but that's
your history that's how you learn and that's what she taught me so and that's that she was really a tremendous influence on me the second was my father because my father really didn't have was not that artsy but he loved music he did like Jewish music and he had great philosophies because he was never judgmental and one of the things he taught me I never forgot those you hear all these things about the difference between sheriff Israel and in temple emanuel and the reform and the orthodox and the conservative you're going to hear all these stories and he said let me tell you I don't
care where your sister and you go as long as you go somewhere so it doesn't make any difference to me and in those days the people that were really involved with thee with our own synagogues and temples did not exactly feel that way and I remember his hope everything he taught me was based upon that just to just do do the right thing but you don't have to beat middle tell me about your children and your grandchildren do they live in Dallas what I do my daughter Oh Dana lives in Charlotte Dana her last night Dana business and she married or does not and real
quickly the way they met is that we sent her to a off to school the University of Arizona and she called about the first week she was there and it's the thing that your father does not want to hear she said dad damn i meant somebody just like you oh my god as they say today OMG and I said what's going on data and she says all but this young man and I said good and I said is he like you know going to be a lawyer doctor is he graduating and there was complete silence on the phone ah and she said no damn she
said he's a freshman and I said sounds like there's more to it than that and she came out with the most incredible line I've never forgot that line and it's and only she after North would come out with the next line she said dad I know you don't believe this but there are poor Jewish people in the United States of America and that was almost dropped the phone one of my daughter my daughter and you just have to know where you love it and I said okay what's next and then from there they got engaged in the I'm a different teenagers and they got married
and my eye hair I just adopted another son and sent him all the way through college and today he is a managing partner at deloitte touche and so in life you could get for Daniel good for Dana I'm good for Dana hunger that's why I and your grandchildren oh my god yourself daughter's children my daughter's children artists actually you've got to take the grandchildren together there four grandchildren there's my daughter's son the firstborn was Benji bismuth he was named after my grandfather his name is Benjamin Isaac busines just like Benjamin I is a Goldberg but he grew up to be pretty tall and he just
graduated a military school in North Carolina and got accepted to the College the military college in Charleston The Citadel wow so and then their his alley she's younger and she's all into fashion and arts and probably will stay that way for the rest of her life the youngest that Josh and Ellen have Oh tell me I was wrong about Josh before you tell me that Josh Smith well Josh met Ellen and he got married and they had two beautiful kids and the youngest to Samantha and Samantha takes after my mother she she puts on place for herself she writes and she's nine years old now
and she's incredible just incredible and she could talk with an English accent like you've never heard very dramatic and she is her grandmother's granddaughter and Sloane is just a beautiful beautiful or a beautiful young man and he was Bar Mitzvah in Nice 14 years old and he wants to be a lawyer he's the one that's going to carry on the tradition an attorney and the four of them real quickly because I know we're running out of time but you have I came up with an idea ten years ago when there was very small and I told him when they were very small I said look
we're going to go on an adventure together for the next ten years and that adventure is you're going to go on a sleepover because they all like sleepovers but this sleepover is going to be different you're going on grandfather sleepover and we will go to different places together and we have no rules we have there is you can do whatever you want to accept like the up early in the morning and it's going to be a different existence and i'm going to show you there is something outside of school and and all of the rules that you live by and you're going to learn to
think and do what you want to do and we just completed our 10th year by going to hotel de clase which for those you may not know there are two ice hotels in the world and this is one of them in montreal the others up in scandinavia below the Arctic Circle and thought that'd be a little too cold and it was the most exciting experience they have ever had because truly it is made out of ice so are 22 degrees and it's all done in sculpture and then it melts newly rebuilt it back again and it would and they are and of course these kids
today they know been ever work they got all the things that you could possibly and they all came up and they let said this is something that nobody will ever take us to grandmother lucky them so I've kept that up with my grandchildren is there anything that you like to add that we haven't covered in this energy no other there real quick I'd like to say I did get married shortly after my wife passed away and after after talking to a lot of my friends and family I am NOT the kind of person to live alone with 48 years a long time and I met
someone in the gym at the boneventure where I live and as when we met each other it was just like just love at first sight and she her name is Helen Peru las and helen is Greek Orthodox and her family escaped from the Nazis and came to America and and lived lived in a small town in Virginia and they and she's a very interesting person she's in the corporate world she's an international tax lawyer he had been with EDS now hewlett-packard for 20 years she did the acquisition was on the team for the merger and then she did the disentangle mum when she came there
of EDS and MGM when Ross Perot was there a more interesting is that she has she has a background of one foot in the little restaurant that they had they they be her brother mother and father and they had nothing and they put two kids through school and managed to also do the same thing and she grew up in helping them out in that restaurant and she was the epitome of My Big Fat Greek Wedding how if you recall that that was her favorite mugam she's not very big and I'm very fat though in fact she's beautiful and she has the other foot in the
corporate world so she knows she knows both of those makes an incredibly interesting person and she's beautiful on the inside as she is on the outside so we've had one year june six that we were married a year ago and quickly it was just a fantastic wedding because it was half Greek and half Jewish and we went to our rabbi cherith Israel and we went to her priest over a crock across the street that's the other pink a Greek Orthodox shirt cost me couple shalom and we went to both of them and we had great they were greatness it's only one thing neither one of
us can marry because neither one if you're converting and it doesn't work that way and Rabbi chose Israel he was just wonderful she just felt love with him and says no there's nothing we do about it you're going to have to find somebody so that was a long story in itself but we did find somebody and we got married in Charlotte one of my kids Daniel an early and we found a wonderful minister this woman had a degree and she performed thousands of weddings and she was fantastic she says you can you can have a very very religious wedding you can have a non-religious whether
you have a hippie wedding whatever you want and I said you mean we can build it ourselves I said and she said yes and we did build our own wedding and it was exactly fifty percent record the dogs the rituals were there and fifty percent Jewish our originals were there and all the brushes were said and then all the blessings over the bread and Greek were said by her brother and it was a complete mixture and I'll just ended by saying when I first met her I said do you do you have ever had a Jewish wedding have you done Greek weddings and she looked
at me and she said Marcus this is the minister and I was interviewing he says Arthur she says of course I have she says they're the same and I said what do you mean the same to same they talked with their hands they have fun they laugh the same it's the same wedding you close your eyes you can't tell the difference the two I said if you ever had one together she says no but I am looking forward to it hmm yeah that's that was the wedding well Arthur it's been terrific talking to you under a pleasure thank you for letting me participate in the
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