Bess Goldstein
Bess Goldstein was born in Vancouver, Canada, where her family lived for a time. She had a sister born in Winnipeg and a younger brother born, like her, in Vancouver. Her parents, immigrants who she noted were largely illiterate, later moved to Pittsburgh and eventually to Dallas, drawn by cousins already living there. Her father spelled the family name Segal, though relatives in Dallas spelled it Siegel. He died young, at only 52, after having suffered a heart attack. From the age of seven or eight, Bess helped in his little variety and dry goods store, coming home from school to mind the counter so her father could rest.
In Dallas the family lived on South Akard, and Bess attended Lamar School and later Forest, which she did not complete. Her father ran a dry goods store on Elm at Good Latimer that served working men and farmers coming into town, selling overalls, work shoes, and piece goods. She married in 1933 after meeting her husband, whose family had migrated one by one from New York beginning around 1931. He opened a tool and key shop on Elm near Hawkins with a partner, a gunsmith, and later the business grew into a pawn shop and then a swap shop dealing in guns, tools, and secondhand goods.
The couple first lived in a duplex on Gould Street near Bess's mother. Bess worked alongside her husband for many years and ran the store by herself for about ten or eleven years after he died in 1972. Growing uneasy working alone, she eventually closed the shop and went to help her son Eddie, who ran a similar swap shop off East Grand and kept the same cluttered, welcoming style his father had. Bess remembered Elm Street as a busy, once-safe place where merchant families sometimes lived behind or above their stores, and she recalled the neighborhood's landmarks, characters, and long working hours.
Full Transcript
In 1985, Mrs. Beth Goldstein, Rose Biederman. They did live in Canada for a while. And because I had a younger brother, he and I were born in Vancouver, And my sister was born in Winnipeg. And then they moved to Pittsburgh. We were in Canada first. We had to tell it to remember it. But I'm really interested in how or why they came to Dallas. Do you know? Was there a relative here? That happened so many times. My father had some cousins that lived here. You remember their name? Manuel Siegel. Oh, okay. And they had a little dry goods store on Curran Street. And of course having someone here, I guess is why they moved.
And, well, aren't that the beginning? Okay, yeah. I went to Lamar School. Oh, you did? Uh-huh. Do you know what age you were when you came to Dallas? I guess you were just very young. Very young. So you went to school in Dallas? Yeah, yeah. Because my brother was a year and a half younger than I was. What was your father's name? It's been so many years. He died very young. He was only 52 years old. But he was Siegel, right? Siegel. Now we spelled it differently because, see they were illiterate, my mother and dad. My mother could read a Jewish paper, but she could not write, and my father could sign his name, and that was it.
So he spelled it the easiest way it came, S-E-G-A-L. But the Siebel's that lived here were S-I-E-G-E-L. It doesn't really matter. They eventually moved to California too And then they pretty much died out the family much of the family Well what he did in Dallas when we lived here we had a little dry goods store, like a variety store, next to our house. And actually from childhood, from the age of old, seven, eight years old, I would come home from school and I knew my job was to go into the store so my dad could go in and rest. He had had a heart attack and then I had an older sister and she and I, after I checked in, I'd go to the kitchen and make us sandwiches.
So you worked in the business from childhood? From childhood. That's interesting. So did your family always have a variety store? Well, let me see. My father then had a store on Elm, Elm and Good Latimer. I guess as Eddie told you, it was Good Street at that time. Okay, he didn't remember if it was Latimer or if it was Good. No, it was Latimer. It was Latimer. It was Latimer. It was Latimer. So your father had a store on Elm and Latimer. Mm-hmm. Okay. Do you know what time period that would be? Was that before the First World War or after? Oh no, let's see.
If I was seven, eight years old, I figured I'd be there. Well, we can come back to it maybe other, you know, I'm trying to get a time frame. It may come to me, yeah. But right now, I just can't remember. That's alright. Do you know why he moved to that area? That's what I'm interested in. Why did the merchants go to this area? Well, let's see now. At that time there were already pawn shops all over and down, and I guess the building was available and he rented it and because he knew that was a place where there were going to be pedestrians You know walking traffic was important And the street wasn quite as busy but it was you know the people used to come in from the little towns into Dallas on the weekends to do their shopping.
And why would they come to this area? Do you know? this deep Ellum area, do you know why the farmers that would come in would come to shop there rather than some other area? There weren't nearly as many shopping areas then. This was downtown. Okay. So I guess they would naturally go to the downtown area? Yes, this was important to them because they, you know, like even the farmers that would come in, he's buying overalls and he buys some neat things working and working. That's right. And work shoes and we handled all that. My father did in his store. Now, did he have new merchandise?
Did your father have? Yeah, yeah. Okay. It was not, we didn't handle second hand. So this was new merchandise and it was geared to a working man. Right. Okay. And then there were several big grocery stores on the street at the time too. Do you remember the names? I've heard of the American Trading. American Trading. That was Reuben. I heard that was a large Reuben. Reuben and Ackerman, that's what I've been told. And Mr. Myers. Oh really? They finally moved out to Oaklep. Is that the same? Right. Oh they started in that area? They were on Elm Street too. Do you remember any other? Now I know Nathan Rosen was telling us about his... Yeah, see the farthest little brick building and the roll of pictures there.
Well that was Nathan Rosen, he was there for many years on Elm Street. And he moved back right off of East Grand, around from where Eddie's story is. And now I understand he's retired, and his son is selling there for his life Oh is that right And he going to go into something else I don know why Okay so your father had a store on Elm and Latimer and you helped Oh, yes. Did the whole family help? Well, I would come home from high school and catch streetcars, streetcar, mind me. And I would go to the store and stay in the store, you know, whatever, the rest of the afternoon.
And my younger brother and I were just great on walking. We used to walk home. We lived on South Akard. And we used to walk home from Elms Bay. Well, people walked a lot in those days. Oh, yeah. So your whole family helped when they could? Well, eventually my two younger brothers took over the store and they ran it for quite some time. Was this the usual thing with other families? Did the whole family help out with the store? Oh yeah, I think a whole lot. I really think so. Did any of the people live behind the store or above the store? Do you know of any Jewish families who had stores that did?
My sister did, and Dave and Dora did. Oh, is that right? They had a poncho. And they first lived in the quarters behind the store, but then they refurbished, remodeled the upstairs and they made it look like a Highland Park house. And they had eight children, and they raised them in that upstairs. Dora would go through pregnancies. When they lived there, at 12 o'clock at night, she couldn't sleep. She'd get out and go take a walk downtown and probably stop and have some coffee or whatever and walk back late at night. It never bothered her in those days. Well, what time period are you talking about when you say those days?
You're talking about the 20s, the 30s? Yes, I imagine the 30s. So you're saying that it was a safe area. Oh yes, like Eddie might have told you, we'd have a deposit to make. He told me about him walking. He walked through all these black people. No one had any fear. And then I had a sister that had a little variety store on Elm Street, but not for too long. And they also lived in the back. So some people did and some didn't. Uh-huh. And the kids knew when they were free they'd come in the store and help. What high school did you go to, you mentioned?
What high school did you go to here? Oh, I went to Forest. Did you? I didn't complete it, but I went. So you know, that's what I'm trying to get a picture of the life of how it was in that time period. Well, listen, my sister when she lived behind the store, she'd take a walk every day when her husband was in the store, she'd go take a walk downtown and do whatever and walk back. It was just a place where people lived. They did well living that way. They liked it. But of course, they all want to better themselves. Did you meet your husband on Elm Street?
On Elm Street. Did he already have a store? No, he moved to Dallas. He came to Dallas in 1931. Okay. He was from New York. His whole family had migrated one at a time. His uncle, do you happen to know Bill Salkis? Oh, of course. Well, that's his uncle. He was here first, and he went in business with some of the other family, I don't remember. I think the name is Ketch. They went into business together. Well, anyway, he eventually wound up in a palm child. And then Isaac came and then his mother came and the sister and Dave and you know, I think Dave was the first one to come after Uncle Billy.
And then my mother-in-law came and she lived with Dave and Dora for some time. and I let see we got married in 33 and there was a my mother lived in a duplex on Gould Street Oh, uh-huh. And she, there was a vacancy next door and she touted us. Uh-huh. So we moved in there. Uh-huh, uh-huh. But thank goodness not too long. Now let's see, my first baby was born and I went back to Gould Street after she was born, but then we made a couple of moves after that. Well did you meet your husband just because everybody was like in the same area? I'm going to tell you that.
I was helping in my store, my dad's store on the corner. That was more like a dry goods store or a clothing store. Yeah, it had no women's stuff. It was mostly peace goods and you could call it a dry goods store. That's what we call it. And then my husband opened up with a partner that was his sister's husband on the next block on Elm Street. That was between Hawkins and Latimer. Hawkins and Good. By then already it's Google Atomer. I had been-anyway, one of his speeches was making keys, and I had lost a key. I knew who he was. I had never been properly introduced, but I knew a good Jewish boy.
So I walked down there to have the key name and he didn't want to charge me. And I said, thank you, you don't owe me anything. I'm going to pay like everybody else. So I got my key. My sister was going, do you remember, I think I can think of his name. Oh, Berger, Abe Berger. Oh, well, I've heard the name, I remember. Well Abe Berger was going with my sister and he went into my husband's store on a rainy Sunday and he wanted a ride home He lived in South Dallas and my husband volunteered to take him and as they passed in the car they passed the store my dad store Abe says that where my girl works Well he met my sister My husband thought you know that it was me He said well I tell you what if it the one I thinking of you going to have to fight for her because that the one I got my eyes on And he brought him over to my house.
I'll never forget, it was a very rainy Valentine's Day on a Sunday, and he introduced us. And we started going together, and that was it. That was it. Now, were the stores open on Sunday? The Dry Goods store was not, but the key shop was. Oh, I see. So was the grocery stores open on Sunday? Like American Training, do you remember? I think they were, but I'd only be guessing. Okay. It would just be interesting. But I'm sure there were long hours. Oh listen, we had to shove them out the door at 11 o'clock at night to get close up. Why is that? Well, the street was always busy, busy.
People coming and going to all hours. And then, I'm sure Eddie told you about the central tracks. Yeah. Well, there were people on the street all the time. And of course, black people needed to get along. And that's what went on and on. Were there a lot of blacks that lived in the area when you were? Do you remember? Well, let me see. I know when the area first started, as the research seems to indicate, that was a residential, that's where the blacks lived in the area. Well, there were no blacks, there were no people living on the street except those few families that lived behind their store.
Well, not on Elm Street itself, but around. Well, their area was nearly always West Dallas, but at that time they were still South Dallas. That was a black area. Well, around where Central Tract used to be, it was called Freedman's Town. That I don't know. You don remember hearing that term Uh Okay okay But I sure the blacks did congregate in that area Yes because all those businesses were run by blacks What businesses were run by blacks? Well, there was a- Did they have any pawn shops? No, no. Things like a voodoo shop, you know, where they sell incense and stuff. Yeah. And then there was a place where they made fried fish sandwiches.
And there was a colored picture show and all that was in that area. Okay, so blacks had businesses but it was different. Yeah, yeah. They didn't have any pawn shops. No. Did they have any dry goods at their stores? Not that I know of. What about groceries? Did they have groceries? Don't think so. There was not a lot of stuff run by black people in those years. But they did have things around where the tracks were and on Elm and all, but it stopped there. I mean, they didn't spread at that time. Of course, now they're everywhere. Well, but I'm trying to talk about that.
Yeah, I know. Okay. Oh, and there was a colored barber shop, I can remember. Uh-huh. You know, those things fade away when you don't think of them and talk about them. Were there white barbershops? Could a black man go to a white barbershop at the end of those days? Do you remember? I don't think so. I don't think so, but I don't know. When you said that, it brought... Even now, it kind of irks me when I see these black people come into the beauty shop where I go to have their hair cut. The females and the men come for haircuts. And that kind of bothers me.
Well, because I'm not used to it. I'm not used to it. I'm not used to it. I'm different. I understand. When you think of Deep Elm, what area do you think of? Around the central tracks? No, it would start like in Harwood. And how far did it go from Harwood? Because see, just before Harwood were several palm shops. That's where Rocky started out. Isaac was on that block of Elm just before Harwood. Do you think it would go as far east as Hawkins or more? Well, there's no more Hawkins. I know, but at that time... Oh, no, it would go... See, my husband's sister had a tool shop, and I think it was the 2700 block, and that's beyond good lack of birth.
You think that might have been about the... Well, I don't know that that actually was a boundary. I mean, it's just Elm. And of course in this day it's no more just Elm, it's the Elm, E-L-L-U-M, you know that. I'm trying to, so far I haven't really been able to define the boundary, that's why I'm asking. Everyone tells me it started with Harwood, but then it's vague, it's going the other way. Well, see, the pawn shops extended from Harwood to, well, we were a pawn shop for years, and then we just changed into a swap shop. So I would think a good Latimer. Okay, so you said that your husband's first store was on-it was right at Hawkins.
Hawkins. Hawkins and Elm. And it was a pawn shop? No, he just opened up as a tool shop and he made keys. Tools and made keys. And his brother-in-law, I mean, the partner, was a gunsmith and they repaired guns. Oh, no. Who was that? His name was Joe Dormer. Is he Jewish No Okay So he was a gunsmith Where did your husband at that time get the tools Did he get new tools No no he didn handle anything new He bought anything that anybody brought in He just bought things For instance, a woman lost her husband and he's got a garage full of tools. She would call him and he'd go out to the house, make a bid on it and he'd buy that.
So it didn't take him long to have turned away. Let me see. I'm happy. And then in-let me see what year it was then-the partners gave up of being partners, and that's when I started working at his store. And did he handle guns? Oh, yes. That was one of our big deals. So I guess guns that had accumulated when the gunsmith was his partner. Right. They'd bring a gun in to be repaired and maybe they wouldn't pick it up. It didn't take long. It just built from that. So did he actually specialize in things like guns and tools or anything? Well just anything really. Like we had one of those phonographs of the movie.
And when I would walk past his store, go down the street or something, he would play, let's see if I can think of it. It was called a Victrola, wasn't it? A Victrola. A cranking Victrola. I can't remember. Some song he always played. Okay. Like, oh, I can't remember. That's alright. But he played the victorio every time he saw me go past. It was an affair before it was an affair. Well, he did all kinds of things to get your attention. He really did. And he was like I said he was very well known and everybody well I tell you what the many years that I stayed in the store I never had anyone talk ugly in front of me They respected me very much And I ran the store by myself for about, well, 10, 11 years after he passed away.
Oh, really? And my store is very dark, whatever lights are on, just plain hanging lights, you know, old flash. And everybody that would walk in looked around, aren't you afraid to be here by yourself? And I never was afraid, but they said it so much I got afraid. Oh, I see. I know what you're saying. I couldn't keep help. I would have somebody for a week or two and they'd leave and things like that. And then I guess the thing that really did frighten me, one morning I had just opened up, I used to open up at 8.30. And I was behind the counter and the young black fellow came in and looked up and down and said, are you by yourself?
And my heart dropped. And I said, no I'm not by myself and I hollered to the back, hey hurry up and come on up here. So, but I was afraid then. And so one Saturday and not being able to keep help and business dropping down to almost nothing. So I, one Saturday, I locked the place up and I haven't been back since. Oh, is that wrong? And I called Eddie on the phone and I said, Eddie, well, how you doing for help? You got anybody? No, I haven't. I said, oh, yes, you do. I'll be over in a few minutes. And he won't let me work over two days consecutively.
So I work three days a week. I work Tuesday and Thursday and Friday. You wonder why I'm home today. This is my day off. I didn't realize that you did that. I think that's nice. Well it keeps me I don do much of anything There are chairs there when I feel like I have to sit down You know I not well I sit when I feel like it And it just another pair of eyes to watch Oh that right For instance yesterday he has a whole tray of solid gold charms And he got a whole tray of chains and bracelets and things Some guy comes in and he wants to see that charm.
So instead of Eddie taking out that charm and showing it to him, he takes the whole tray. Then in the meantime, he gets a phone call, he has to go to the back, well there's got to be some eyes to watch that man. He was a preacher, you know, that's the worst time. He killed about two hours of Eddie's time, and he said, well sure thank you, I'll try to come back and get him, buying a charm for his wife, buying a chain, buying a ring, and he bought nothing. I'll be back, thank you. But that's the way it goes. That's the way it goes.
When they come up with what time do you close, and you know that's Katie Bar the door, they're not going to be back. What year did your husband pass away? In 72. And he was active with the store the whole time? Oh, right till the last, yeah. He just had a heart of having him. Now you had talked about and showed pictures of celebrities who came to visit your husband and how well known he was. You attributed that to all his signs and his personality. Did you think highly of Eddie's personality, even though you didn't meet him? Oh yes, right. Well, he's a chick off of the blind.
People are just drawn to him like monster around the flame. People knew of him and heard of him from various places. Just from being written up in the paper and other times you said you had articles from different out of town papers. I don't know what I think they're back there. Well that's alright, but the story would be picked up and do you think that all the signs were colored? Well it was a landmark. A landmark. It was a landmark. Is the store still there? Yes. It's got a whole lot of my stuff in it yet. It's there and it's just closed. Are the signs still there?
No, no, I told you when the sign business came up, Eddie went out there, and Leslie's already tried to keep out of trouble, and he took all the signs down. And the little tin shed had been rented. I think he said it's not rented now. You know, on one side was a tin shed, and on the other side was a little loath building. What hundred block is it? 25. Is that the area where, if they're calling it like an art district? Some have, excuse me, rented places, but I don't know. You know, I've been away from there over three years, and I really don't know.
Okay. So your son Eddie has the same type of business? The same type, and listen, the messier it is, the happier he is, because it's like his daddy did it. And he in Lee You said East Grand area East Grand Is it a same type of locality or it different No it a shopping area but it not the same type There are several pawn shops, however, on the street that have moved there within the last while. Oh, really? Well, does your son have a pawn shop? No, he started out as a swap shop. Okay. Because the pawn shop is a little more rigid. Rules are a little more rigid.
Were there rules in the early days when you were... No. No. Were there any rules that you know of? Well, you had to have a license. You did, from the city? Uh-huh. Okay. Is that because of guns, or... Did any store have... Pawn shops. Listen, the rules were so funny, I don't even remember them, because... I can't even remember when we quit being upon China. But there were rules... But there were rules that, like, you can't display...