David Katzen
David Katzen's family roots reach back to Riga and Lithuania. His father's parents emigrated from Riga to South Africa, and his father was raised in Vereeniging and attended King David High School in Johannesburg. On his mother's side, his great-grandfather Sammy Marks was born in Lithuania in 1844, learned the knife trade in Sheffield, England, and came to South Africa as a peddler before becoming a leading industrialist. Marks bought farmland including the farms Swartkoppies and Zwartkopjes near Pretoria, established the country's first major brick factory, donated bricks to build a synagogue, mediated between the Boers and British during the Boer War, and was honored by Paul Kruger with 100 gold coins struck at the Pretoria mint. David's grandfather Joe farmed Swartkoppies, and his mother Jill was Joe's only child.
David grew up in Johannesburg with three sisters, the only son of Jill and Ashley Katzen, an entrepreneur who owned bottle stores, menswear shops, and a hardware business. He attended Pridwin elementary school and St. John's College, had his bar mitzvah at a Johannesburg synagogue, and after matriculating served a year in the South African army artillery. He then earned a joint finance and law degree. Concerned about South Africa's political future, his parents left in 1976, and David moved to London, where he qualified as a chartered accountant and married his wife Georgie in a small synagogue on Abbey Road. The couple lived in London for several years before relocating to Dallas in 1984, drawn by family who had settled there.
In Dallas, David joined the accounting firm Arthur Young, later Ernst and Young, obtained his green card and citizenship, and built a long career. He and Georgie hold dual British and American nationality, as do their three sons: Jamie, an attorney; Steven, a neurosurgery resident; and Michael, who works in investment banking in New York. The family joined Congregation Shearith Israel, where David has served on the board and executive committee and where Jamie now serves as well. Describing himself as a Zionist, David has maintained Jewish traditions at home and has treasured family heirlooms tied to Sammy Marks, including a gold fob watch and two of the gold coins struck for his great-grandfather.
Full Transcript
hi David I'm Joan Claremont and then the metric losin this year on the camera it is Saturday October 31st 2015 and finally we managed to get this interview going so we're very happy about that very cool David tell us about what you know when and why your family originally immigrated to South Africa and what can you share about their lives in South Africa in the early years they came from Riga I think yeah both my dad's parents emigrated to South Africa my dad actually was born in for reality that his whole life there we're two Gebbie boys High School in Johannesburg and actually I think
his mom and dad where she born for anything I think about it and it was his parents actually were born in Riga my mom's grandparents or parents her dad was born in moist earth in Lithuania in 1844 he's name was Eddie Marx he left nice that at a very young age went to live in Sheffield in England met his future wife in Sheffield burnt a Goodman family so was she English or whether she was actually English they were in the night he learned the night business in Sheffield how to make sharpened knives when the South African diamond mined gold mines were started to open up
Sani actually went down to South Africa and did not take his wife with him at that time he went to establish himself down in Cape Town where he spent most of his time initially as a sponsor so he had a wagon in which he sold mutter and pots and pans that's really all he started do you know what what year that was do you know he went in I think 1868 1869 it's a long time in there once he's gotten established he actually went back to Sheffield got his wife and they moved doctor Cape Town and then eventually after the Transvaal he was interesting guy
in the sense that he started with nothing was not able to read and write but did not have a formal education was a very good business man recognized that the country was expanding bought up a lot of farmland where they were grouping coal deposits and so on eventually moved to Pretoria where he had an opportunity to buy two farms pro-fascist of Pretoria the first one was the farm called swap copies and the second one was a farm right next door called penis port a total about 5,000 Morgan in those days the story behind why he was given the right to buy the farms was we
can go to lots of detail but basically he even though he was Jewish and did celebrate the holidays but did not celebrate a Friday nights will Shabbat interestingly enough well they was very religious man he used to mediate between the boys and the British during the Boer War so he knew he actually used that switch on roads personally he knew Paul Kruger personally he mediated between the British and the Boers had had both those guys gentlemen at Swart copies the farm that he built during that period to see if they could come to some kind of a settlement between them because of the work he
did in that regard and was and was perceived as being a intermediary but also a neutral party Paul Kruger said Sammy I want to give you something for your efforts and you said I'm going to close the mint in Pretoria for a day and I'm gonna mention hundred gold tikkis and that was the origin of 100 gold turkeys that they talk about the Kruger tikkis which are worth a lot of money today but we're not sure all of them are I knows and cousins would have a lot of them actually so it was a great honor to him and he was given those two keys
so he was a great ambassador for South Africa became a state senator in the government in South Africa and eventually died in 1820 so he was 1844 I guess he was a good 1920 the 1920s or so he was he was what sort of 1880 76 he had four sons and two daughters all of which were educated in England and various English private school boarding schools one of which was my grandfather Joe who actually continued to farm the farm short core piece and penis put through through his whole life until his death my mom Jill Katzen was his only child he was married to Cecilia
bowes-lyon Sippi is I used to call it I think was from my crude start or veljko one of those times and a very interesting lady her first husband had been a and this was my grandmother her first husband had been a fella called John French who was an Irish Catholic from Ireland who was a wild game hunter in Angola so she lifted and go for a while my mom's half sisters actually born in the bush in Angola before they moved back down to South Africa at which time sippy my mother's mother actually met my grandfather Joe was her second husband so my mom had a
brother and a sister from her mom's first marriage to John French then it was she was the only child from her mom's second marriage and they were married many many years my mother's mother was quite a character actually and there's a lot of very fascinating history with her she was a great gambler loved to gamble actually went through three husband's mother fortunes during her lifetime including my grandfather okay there's a story about her she was living in England she loved to live in England and she had gone to Monte Carlo for the weekend and had run up a bill or losses gambling with chemin chemin
de fer at the casino there of about 10,000 pounds well back in the 1940s there was a lot of money and the story is that she had known aristotle onassis at that time and he had walked up to the casino manager and said don't worry about mrs. Bose Lyons losses I'll take care of it and he did apparently so that's the story so she was very colorful personality who was married to my mother's dead Joe who was a farmer and really in all senses of that word he used to fall beef and beans and a nice Jewish boy farming pigs but a lot of fruit trees pears peaches and all that kind of stuff my mom's third husband actually was Ronnie bowes-lyon who interestingly enough was actually a first cousin to the Queen mom in England she was part of the buzzline family captain model birds lion you see your mother's first a third
husband was Captain morning birds my grandmother's my grandmother's yes so and my mom was very friendly with him and so throughout her whole life she maintained a relationship with all her husband's who loved her dearly but just couldn't stay married to her so when my mom was born she was actually born in the cetra Pretoria in the port Kruger house with is a museum they were poor Krueger's house she was actually born in that house which which she was born in 1927 and the poor Kruger there's a statue in the center of Pretoria right mm-hmm that was donated to Pretoria by San Dimas so that
statue of Paul Kruger in the centre of the city and all the busts around it had been contributed to the city by by my great-grandfather so a lot of history with that side of the family with with Pretoria itself as I said my dad came from for anything and Sammy marks actually had huge investments in for anything because he was an industrialist and he had actually met my mom infrared oven right after the Second World War after my dad got from law he was up in North Africa for six years and in those days they didn't just travel back to Johannesburg when they had leave
there was nowhere to get back so when he went to North Africa and then up into the Middle East Syria Lebanon Israel he couldn't get back so his parents passed away while he was in North Africa he never came back he came back at the age of 31 without a college education my mother she met him in cinema in a movie theater in Florida and even though he was 11 years older than her they got married back in 19 interesting thing about going back to Sammy Marx and that side of the family he was a very interesting guy he established the first major brick factory
in South Africa we'll yester for Britain mm-hmm and because he owned that he actually if it was a desire but there was a necessity to build the wall around street shoe he actually donated the bricks the red bricks to the show to build the show from the yester fabric and the first brick factory so lots of interesting you being very modest about your great-grandfather because you don't talk about the semi Marx museum so which of the poems is that on that's on spark or glass right and it's it's interesting because that house was built in stages over a period of time like my grandfather lived
there won't his life I used to spend every weekend with my grandfather and so did all my kids I have many friends who I grew up with it was it I was at elementary school who spent many weekends with me at the farm so I know the farmhouse very very well I used to play all over it eventually they wanted to make it into a museum because there's a lot of interesting history associated with it long interesting people visiting and a lot of interesting furniture in there do not permit and everything isn't it it is yes and so about 15 years ago my mom and
some cousins of ours who are administrators of the semi Marx estate somebody had approached her about converting it to a museum the family all thought was a great idea you know because especially because he was Jewish and he had such an impact at least in the early days on on South Africa so the family did they sold it to the museum and a very good price and then donated all the furniture and everything for a nominal amount to establish the museum in Swat copies so they actually have a book here which I can show you later which was written by the spelling alain prost of
all the great houses in South Africa and their movies is in the book and it shows you pictures of the billiard room where I can of the snooker room where I can tell you I won the way many hours as a young boy in that house even the photographs on the wall of Paul Crewe there and the other you know famous South Africans that there are there are and I have to tell you that I remember seeing that the kiddush cup they say you said he to the celebrate Shabbat the kiddush cup the original Peters peppers there's not a lot that if you walk into
the house that would say this man is was a Jew but there are pieces around the house that you clearly can see menorahs and candlesticks he was a very devout man very they were to just man himself so but what you're not mentioning and I understand you'd be modest is that any time you mentioned South African Jews semi mobs name comes up first as the most influential and important Soviet Jews of Africa yes and I think he was at that time he had a tremendous impact on establishing the goldfields the diamond mines in Kimberley yeah brick factories and actually had one time he and his
cousin Isaac Lewis who he brought up to South Africa over between them over three million acres so David tell us more about your own life you grew up with were you in Johannesburg I grew up in Johannesburg I have three sisters then the Francis and Tessa my mom is Jill she was the only child as I mentioned my father's name is Ashley he was one of four he had three sisters he was the youngest he was the boy I always lived in Joburg although my parents lived in for elephant for a lot of their lives my two elder sisters actually lived in for anything in
their early years before that my parents moved to China spoke and my dad really was an entrepreneur the owner bottles throw in Farina had called captain's bottle store he and mint couple of menswear houses around he owned a hardware store in near bits University called bran Fenton Hardware the corner there I think it was kind of an entrepreneur eventually he and my mother's father Joe built the Roseman clinic and nearly went Bakula with it so I grew up in Joker was born I think at the Marymount one of one of four kids only boy went to Priven Elementary School a nice emmagan school for a
nice Jewish boy and then went to sixth ilion's college in Ranbir good method of school for a nice Jewish boy so I'm probably one of the few Jewish kid guys living in Dallas he did good King David but what a great my sisters will wait to Kingsmead in Roseburg so a little bit of an unusual background in the sense that I think they were my grandmother on my mother's side have been married to a lot of non-jewish men during her life or to non-jewish me during her life and so to my parents that wasn't important but nevertheless in spite of that I had a cousin
who insisted I go to Shrew with him every Friday night nearly Saturday morning and spite of my dad who was very close to I did have a bar mitzvah at Valmont Street sure right which incidentally of course in those days was one of the primary shows with Oxford Shirley in Johannesburg so at the age of 18 or 17 I guess I was at the time I graduated with trick where I matriculated at Sicilians went into the Army in South African army to the artillery spent a year in patch of straw with the felf butter they actually LM paisa was in the army with me he's
a new thing now so had a good year there and then after they went of its for three years did it be calm it was a joint become LLM ll be kind of the kind of a finance degree and then after that like a lot of the South Africans we were concerned about the political future and that's when my mom and dad is particularly my mom actually who had been schooled in England and actually had been in Beck was living in London during the Blitz with her mom had been evacuated back to South Africa when the German bombers came over London she decided that would
be my going to give for the family to consider moving so we had a lot of English family at that time her sister was in London a lot of cousins were in London we moved to live in England up until that point I'd be dating my wife Georgie who had met her when I was 13 the lovely Georgie cause and we kind of broke up but then I went to live in London and I asked her to come to London and shortly thereafter about three years after she came we got married in England on heavy Road in a little show called the New London synagogue
it was about a hundred yards from the famous Beatles crossing in London and so I always remember that and it was it was kind of nice a lovely day in July in London and then we lived in London for nine years from 1976 to 1977 to 1984 at which time I had been chatting with an attorney here in Dallas rotten gas with who is very known and Ron had done all my labor certification the reason we came to Dallas of course was because Georgie's sister Andy and her brother Norman Gordon had moved to Dallas in 1976 so they were kind of one of the first
South African groups to come to come to Dallas I had been working in London as a chartered accountant qualified in London as a chartered accountant so it was a hard move for us to to make that move species I was leaving family yes that's nice how did your parents feel about you leaving London they were not happy particularly because my eldest son Jamie had been born and that was their first grandchild so but they understood the desire for me to come and live in the United States because I really kind of felt my personality fit better with the open american-style way of doing things the
English way although I'm very comfortable in England and there we go there awesome to see my family used to live there so George and I moved to Dallas in 84 and at that time I had one son Jamie who was 18 months old I joined Arthur Young which was the predecessor to Ernst & Young big accounting firm and did well with a firm got my labor certification in a green card and you know went through a wriggly transfer - across on an l1 visa which was an intercompany transfer and then applied for my green card got that and then of course applied for citizenship so
we hold both actually American and British citizenship which I like to do and interesting enough I insisted my boys do the same so all my kids actually hold dual nationality even though well Jamie of course is entirely British citizens but the two younger youngsters were born Michael and Steven were both born here in Dallas but that there are they held dual nationality as well as do Georgie and I and so we beat him Dallas for the last 33 years I guess loved it here I would not move back my parents left coming to visit us my mom still loves coming to visit us and it's
been actually a very very positive move for us I'm very very happy that the family made the move out of South Africa I think it's been very beneficial when I when I hear what's going on back there so what year did your parents leave South Africa with no end of 1976 all right so just after the Soweto riots kind and they tell us about your your feelings and first impressions of the United States have you been to Dallas to persist before you moved here I presume you head to visit India Norman yes we had and George and I had turned in the United States we've
been around deaths in those days reminded me a little bit of for reaffirming to be quite candid it wasn't he it wasn't the city it is today it's really changed a lot and continues to change so I was happy you know I had a I had a great job with a great company and we traveled around a lot we we weren't restricted to Dallas at the time I think Georgie had the most trouble because she'd been working in the West End of London for a travel company that specialized in doing tours to China in those days which is unusual and so I think Georgie had
more of a culture shock than I did because she wasn't working at that time and it was kind of bringing up a young kid but over a period of time I think we both be very happy outing adapted well to the to the culture let's talk about in the diversity which community and did you join the congregation when you bought yet we joined yes we joined sheriff Israel right and did your kids go to schools they started a Jewish my Elvis Jane you into a key before a couple of years to kindergarten the other to wind to Davi Kevin your subject in those days and
then the two olive oils we put them in Green Hill when they got there at that age my youngest son Michael went to the public school system so we did not keep them in religious school all that time although we as a family have been very active in the Jewish community well I'm very active quite active probably more so than a lot of the families so I've always been very active at Sheriff my brother Newell Normand of course was very active in Sheriff I've been on the board a number of times just come off the board and come off sitting on the executive committee I
said Jamie is now on the board and sheriff and he's also on the executive committee now so it's nice to see that mantel be handed down a little bit we've always supported the Jewish community where we can I mean he wasn't a religious man he was a good you know he was proud of the fact he was Jewish he just wasn't a big sugar and and show us about and traditions that you've maintained at home the Jewish cultural traditions you know the lighting the candles Shabbat rest well we clearly do Shabbat we go to shore when we can we always celebrate the holidays so whether
it's Chanukah whether it's Russia Shannara whether it's Yom Kippur we celebrate not always but all the main the main holidays and continue to do that and make sure that the kids have always been involved in doing that I think that's what it stills a lot of the get excited enough to say and this is I'm really proud of this my eldest son Jamie married a girl Megan Rudy from Kansas who she was born in Seattle a nice Irish Catholic girl and before they got married she midnight and she loves being Jewish and so when they got married it was really nice it's been a very
good thing and Jamie insisted on that before he would even consider that so I'm proud of that fact because in this time it's hard to do that actually and tells about how important Israel was to you growing up in South Africa very we were very actively involved I even remember the six-day war my sister Frances she and I've got it somewhere I just haven't found I'm going to find it it's very interesting she had put together a whole scrapbook from all the newspapers magazines in South Africa of pictures and documents and editorials on that whole six-day war what was going on at that time so
from a very young age in 67 I was you know my interest started there with Israel I guess and the family's interest so we've always had a very keen interest George and I have been to Israel I think we'd like to go back again take the kids with us they have never been to Israel we're very supportive and I would say I would consider myself a Zionist and do you still have family in South Africa close family do their Bakley to visit I do have family we have some cousins in Johannesburg Martin and I are smaller and they're kids and my other cousin Stephen I
have cousins in Cape Town the lovers we don't I don't have any immediate family back in South Africa I have just cousins who we talked to who were friendly with who we know but like so many of the South African families I've got fourth annual over the world including Australia Toronto Canada England my older sister Linda lives in Italy but family Israel I mean of course and also of course all over the United States and there's anything you miss about South Africa maybe customs food I think the thing about South Africa I missed the most is it was a very unique group of people living
in in South Africa really and I think we kind of duplicate the South African community is duplicated in Dallas were the South Africans tend to hang out with the other South Africans I think they feel very comfortable amongst each other there's a certain honesty about them that I really like there's that tremendous sense of humor which of course I really like is that caring that I really like and I think there's a certain entrepreneurial ISM about the South Africans that I don't see and a certain pushiness that I don't see with a lot of other folks that I deal with and of course I deal
with a lot of businessmen in my profession so I miss that community if there's one thing like David is there anything you'd like to tell us that that I haven't asked you about or anything we haven't covered Terrace your children are we let's talk about your children my eldest Jaime is 30 choose Mary - Megan maybe they live it down Jaime was a green yo then he went to University of Kansas Freese undergrad he went to law school on at st. Mary's in San Antonio he then went to work after law school didn't get a job it was good while he was working actually went back to SMU ended his tax LLM and masters Master of Laws in taxation and now Jane is working for trust of estate where shall all firm and which does a lot of trust in the state work wills in the States and international tax called right Ginsburg and Bruce alone doing very well and is very happy living in Dallas with his wife Megan I mean another son Steven who is 29 Steven wasn't greenio he went to Tulane University in New Orleans for
his undergrad decided he want to go to medical school did not get into medical school his first year that he applied which was a shock to him but that's life so he decided he would go into Europe for eight months on up with a backpack which is what he did came back just get into medical school the second time went to Texas Tech Medical School in Lubbock so he's been two years in Lubbock and two years in ever illa did exceedingly well - scored very hard of the board exams and actually is now and then applied to go and do a residency in neurosurgery done
at Memorial Hermann in Houston which is where he is now I think he's crazy it's a hard road but he's not in his third year of residency so he's getting there he's that great Michael my youngest was told that he would not be he was not a good candidate for gradient as he was likely to be very disruptive in class which is probably true actually so he went to through the planer public school system ended up playing football on the planet West senior high team because only Jewish kid playing football of you know it was like whoa interesting they're very very well with the football
and he also got into Chilean University which is a great school his grades were good he scored high on his tests and he did a master's dominant today and last year and this year he's taken a job with the Canadian investment bank in New York called Canaccord Genuity so Mike he's doing great he's living the life of Riley and he loves New York enjoying the social aspect he was working very hard but he likes and he's 25 so at this point George you know empty nesters October 2015 almost all the kids off the payroll just about favorites that's about the things that are makes to
you on the table okay so what occurred here is this actually is a a gold stopwatch which she has got my grandfather's initials on the back and I think this my mom gave this to me this actually was given to him by Sammy Marx as a present and it's an antique watch that the China it's actually a fob watch so they would they would wear it like this not of course the chain is gold and it's just a beautiful watch which she gave to me as an inheritance just something to remember remember him by and migraine I actually have these which I thought would be
a bit of great interest these are too and unfortunately they'd be ruined a little bit because they made it into Catholic but I talked about the hundred gold tikkis what these are two of them okay so they're valuable but they're not as valuable my mom actually has one of the original gold tikis in London which she still keeps and I think she's wilted to one of her great her grandchildren but I've got these my mum gave these to me and of course these will go as a as an heirloom to one of my kids eventually so this is when Paul Kruger closed the mint these
are two of the tikkis that he made specifically for Sammy at that time interestingly enough I know what they were thick she but they're worth a lot of money apparently it's interesting is that called T keys but they much bigger yeah tikkis really well yeah and actually it's interesting because the way these are being martyred this is actually the head of Paul Kruger back yeah and this was like the South African I just thought this was interesting I actually have a book there's a book being written on sending my monks and I can't find it but I've got a subway in the house because there
was a there was a gentleman who when they established the Jewish Museum in Cape Town there's a whole section in that museum dedicated and I've been there to see it it was the guy who did that I think who wrote this book and researched it it's actually fascinating but this was a book photographs by this fella Ellen Provost you can see that this is like the colonial houses of South Africa and this actually see it this actually is the it's the billiard room of Swat copies that I used to spend hours and hours with one of my cousins playing snooker and this is a scoreboard
here we used to score our actual game of the scoreboard and we used to sit on these chairs smoking cigars like big shots when we were little kids great break history of great memories 14 spacious ceilings actually a short of semi right there these are the old style bathrooms so the house has been left as yeah I mean let's just still like this yeah I remember showering in these with the water coming hit me from all angles Eddie was this bathroom was in the back of the house this was a balcony up right outside right outside the billiard room upstairs the villager was upstairs when
my mom was a kid she's just suffocate from asthma so she used to sleep it's a lovely house I mean it's it's this was the this was the old kitchen when the whole big stove there you can see it yeah now back to that picture of off semi there is a picture here I'll go back there's a picture here you can see this can you zoom in on there very difficult this is Sammy marks here and he's here with Lord and Lady Robert who was I think that the governor of South Africa okay yeah he was a little bit God but but very very small
very well so maybe he did it yeah I mean he did well and you know he left a great legacy which was which is great it's just a shame that you know so much of the family has left South Africa and is there's no one to continue on you know farming the farm and take advantage of all that interesting factoid sandy Marx had this opportunity to buy these two farms short core peas and peanuts port and there was another farm on the other side further away from Victoria on the way to like the you know the eastern Transvaal now straight and so on he bought
the two farms that were the closest to Pretoria they found the colored diamond it's in the crown jewels Wow and that's where they found the kulluk or the colon so he picked the wrong tune phone so that's really a little bit about that obviously