David Lefkowitz

Full Transcript

This is Ginger Jacobs and I am going to be interviewing Rabbi David Lefkowitz Jr. from Shreveport. And this is January 27, 1980. And he is going to be, Rabbi Lefkowitz is going to be talking about his own experiences living in Dallas. Rabbi Lefkowitz is going to be also telling us about Shreveport a little bit as he is the Rabbi Emeritus of B'nai Zion in Shreveport but let's go back to your Dallas experience Rabbi how many years did you live in Dallas? well I came there with my parents my father was called to the pulpit in 1920 And I remember in Dayton, Ohio, where Father had been rabbi for 20 years, Herbert Marcus and Arthur Kramer came up to interview Father, and in 1920 we moved to Dallas.

And I lived there, you might say, officially until 1930 when I entered the Hebrew Union college. Of course, I was at the University of Texas in 27, 28, and 29 before I decided, well, I had decided on the rabbinate, but my father wanted me to stay another year to make sure I was sincere about it and serious. So I went up there in September of 1930. Then I was at Cincinnati for seven years. It was an eight-year course in those days, and I made up one year through in absentia summer work. I was ordained in 1937. And before I was ordained, my father had cataract problems and was not certain of the outcome.

So I was actually called to the pulpit as assistant rabbi two months before I was ordained, although I finished my thesis and was approved by the faculty and President Morgenstern. And then I went back to Cincinnati for my ordination. I completed all my work and two months later I was married But then I started on three and a half very fruitful years with my father the first case in the American rabbinate where father and son served the same pulpit at the same time And then in the summer of 1940, August, my father received a long-distance call from Dr. Abrambrill, the rabbi of Shreveport, who was very ill and wanted to know if he knew of any assistance that were available to come.

And it was not too difficult to make up my mind because I felt that I was ready, and especially since Dr. Brill was a classmate of my father's in the 1900 class of HUC. and it also dated my mother before dad did and I knew him first as Uncle Abe and they were the last class to be personally blessed by Isaac M. Wise and so I felt very much at home but unfortunately right after I came well the very holy days after I came in Yom Kippur Memorial Service he had a heart attack during his memorial sermon and except for brief returns for six months, I carried the load and in January of 1941 I was elected rabbi.

I came as an associate because I said I'd already been an assistant. I didn't want to go. So that was an easy, as easy as any escaping the nest would be. But it's been a very rich and rewarding ministry there. And Dallas was, and Temple Emanuel was very, very beautiful because of the warm and loving relationship with my boss. It was very tough, too. He demanded a lot. And sometimes in my youthful way, many years ago, I was somewhat concerned. But then when I got to Shreveport, I realized it was a magnificent apprenticeship. And I never regretted for a moment and I certainly as I sure you realize revere the memory of my father both as a person a man and a rabbi exemplar of all I consider fine and my mother who was the ideal rabbi wife Now, was your father the first generation arrival?

I should say, were you the first generation arrival? Well, my siblings and I, my two brothers, sister, my mother was born in Cincinnati. Father was born in what was then Austria-Hungary, Austria-Hungary. But he came at five years of age, went to New York, as so many did, was in the Hebrew orphan asylum because his mother, his father had died on shipboard coming across, and either coming previous or... And so my grandmother, whom I never knew, had four boys to take care of, and she just couldn't handle it by herself. So Father and his younger brother, Herman, were in the Hebrew orphan asylum. And it was there, although Father had originally planned to become a commercial artist, that under the tutelage of Dr.

Herman Barr, a very fine German-Jewish gentleman, directed him toward the rabbinate. And he got his first bachelor's degree at the CCNY. And then later, in 1896, he transferred to the University of Cincinnati in Hebrew Union College, and he got a second bachelor's degree from the University of Cincinnati. And in four years, because of his previous Hebrew training in New York, he was ordained rabbi in 1900. So you might say, because of my father, my siblings and I are first-generation American-born. Do you know the circumstance that your father left Austria-Hungry, or the parents left? No, I really don't. It's possibly the same reason that my wife's father, who was born in the same town in Eppetish in Hungary, and they came in the same year to the United States, but they didn't know each other.

And my wife father was 12 years old and dead And he came as a peddler with a peck on his back tramping through Pennsylvania and ultimately landing in Ohio Little Rivertown Portsmouth But I do not know the circumstances, other than the general unrest, as Dr. Marcus told us last night at the opening session, of trying to get out from a very trying and difficult situation, that difficult that is for the Jewish people. Do you have any idea about the year that he came? Yes, 1880. Okay. Okay. Which would pretty much coincide with some of the problems. Yes, indeed. Yes, so historically. Now, of course, you've mentioned the fact that you are a rabbi.

What Jewish education did you have in Dallas as you were growing up? Well, I had a very typical Reformed Jewish education in religious school, Sunday school. I like to call it religious school. And since my father was a rabbi, it was a pretty good one for those days. But I grew up in the 20s, you know, the so-called roaring 20s, and I was like any other young person of my age. I didn't dig it pretty, very deeply. but I had the added advantage of living in a rabbi's home and I had the spirit and the dedication the meeting I remember every Friday night after Temple the folks living only two blocks from the old Temple on South Boulevard would have people come over just to visit like they say today for the Onig Shabbat and it was a purely personal thing sometimes they bring musicians sometimes the president of the Temple sometimes the visiting speakers would come I remember Dr.

Solomon Freehoff was there one time, and others of similar stature, and sometimes they would have musicians they'd play, I mean, from the choir and others. It was a very cosmopolitan, I would say, today we'd call it sophisticated thing, although I didn't know the word then. And I guess I got my motivation there. then I would say basically that was the extent of my Jewish education, formal Jewish education, while I was in Dallas as a high school A grade school and a high school student. What were some of the things that you studied in religious school? What was the program, what was the study like? Well, in those days it was history, Bible, Hebrew, prayers, social activities that came later, but some ceremonies tailored to what was then our modern philosophy and so forth.

But it is rather vague. We had a drama department, which I took an interest, centered on Jewish plays, Jewish pageants, and so forth. Miss Bertha Jacobs was the leader in the early days. She was very, very capable and very, they lived across the street from us, and so I had no problem, she had no problem in coloring me to get me to participate. So it was a fairly rounded and I would say rather innocuous type of Jewish education as I look back on it. What about the secular education in Dallas? Well, when I came to Dallas with my family, I was placed, because of previous grade schooling in Dayton, Ohio, I was placed in a fourth grade.

How old were you? What? And how old were you? Well, I was, I was born in 1911, nine and a half. Nine and a half, okay. and I went to the Colonial Hill School, the first grade, fourth and fifth grade. Then my parents moved from Forest Avenue. They had been renting a home from Mr. Gus Roos, and they built a home, which was for us fine brand in those days, on South Boulevard, two blocks from the Temple. And so being in another neighborhood, I transferred to Brown School. And it was there at Brown School that I went through the usual routine of all the classwork all the curriculum of the times and I passed out of Brown School It was only seven grades in those days so that where I made up one year And then I went to Forrest Avenue High School, the so-called Jewish high school, and I had four years with the usual subjects, history, English, Latin, zoology, physics, physical education, ROTC, and so forth.

That was a typical Goethe education in those days, but very helpful. I remember with great fondness my English teacher, who was, oh, for many years lived into my Shreveport ministry, Miss Edna Rowe, who is a legend, and she pounded unity, emphasis, and coherence in the English sentence, a simple declarative sentence. Don't say anything in a hundred words that you can say in ten. And themes and debates and so forth. And she was perhaps, with the exception of my history teacher, Miss Mosby I guess she's Miss most of them were Misses in those days they had Miss prior with the exception of Miss Mosby my history teacher I think Miss Rowe was the outstanding memory that I have of my classroom work in the school and then after graduation I went to the University of Texas and for three years before I decided, or I had decided a year before, but my father kept me in Boston to make sure that I was sincere and was really certain that that's what I wanted to do.

That was the year he was president of the CCAR, and he was pleased, but he said, stay another year and study under a rabbi. He was a rabbi of KAM in Chicago, named Jacob. Adlin? No. I'll scratch that. Anyhow, it's the rabbi in Austin at the time. And I stayed and I studied Hebrew with him and the elements of Hebrew grammar which were sort of catch because he was busy and trying to go up in the ladder of the rabbinate which was proper and so I had to study more on my own And then I had applied for entrance to the Hebrew Union College, and I remember getting a telegram or a letter from Dr.

Henry Englander of blessed memory, a wonderful blessed man, who was a friend of my father's and a contemporary, although not as old. And I had to send my transcript from the University of Texas. And he said, Lefkowitz, because of your father and not because of your transcript, you're admitted to appear before the entrance committee because otherwise you wouldn't stand a blank of a chance. And so that is how I got into Hebrew Union College. And then is when I learned how to study, because I had university in the morning. In those days, that's how I did it. It was before it was a graduate school.

Then I had university in the morning with the German, logic, history, physics. And then I'd run back down the hill, literally, to the Hebrew Union College and put my books up on the fourth floor, take my books from the afternoon to the Hebrew Union, and then finish at five o'clock. And I had to learn for the first year and a half at Hebrew Union College. I didn't have a date for a year for that time, because I would stay up to two, three in the morning working on Hebrew grammar and the really essentials for acquiring a background in Jewish scholarship and I had majored at Cincinnati and Texas in history because of one of my teachers and my English high school teacher had been sort of an inspiration to me and so I changed from English literature to history major in the regular college and I think that stood me in good stead when I went to HUC and the year and a half, year paid off really, because after that first year I got what they call scholarship grades.

In those days it was a little less pressure And the first year either your sisterhood or the family paid your tuition room and board which was a whole thing you can imagine the difference but if you made scholarship grades you got that free so the only expense the family had in the days of the depression which was important was transportation and so many other time I went back in an upper berth a little bit off the cuff though what was it like in Dallas in your experience during the days of the discussion? Oh it was an exciting time for me because we lived in that if you remember well I don't know you're so young we lived in just two blocks in a temple Yes.

And I would say from our house, or from the railroad tracks, actually, which was right between our house and the temple, and maybe three blocks down there was hardly a non-Jewish family. That's right. And we used to call it South Jullivard. And in our neighborhood we'd have, I mean, children I grew up with. The Herbert Marcus family lived up two blocks down the street. There was no difference in financial status and so forth, social status in those days. We'd have our afternoon after school and after homework. We'd have our football games on one of the empty lots, which was then empty. That is, except for the time I took piano lessons from Miss Gertrude Mandelstam.

who was sort of a protege of my mother's and I took a piano from her until one day she said David if I didn't love your mother I'd wrap this piano around your neck because I didn't practice I learned to love music because of my mother and her conservatory training in Cincinnati and Gertrude who was a wonderful soul but I was no musician and I'm not today But, for example, when I was in the confirmation class, and this was rare in those days, I had what they called a streptococcus stroke infection. They didn't know antibiotics, they didn't know it. The doctor who should needn't be named, who was a fine doctor, a Jewish doctor, tried I was a human pincushion.

And I was in bed three months. And they allowed me, I was considered non-infectious. So they allowed me to, I learned my part, the Torah part, in bed. They allowed me to go to temple. They carried me upstairs to the, remember, the level of the old temple. and I didn't march in with the kids because that was too much effort and not effort but they were concerned but I took my seat there and then after Father blessed us and after I was immediately sent outside then they took me downstairs and took me back home to bed well after the confirmation services to show you what a sweet spirit there was in that Jewish community And incidentally, it was not all reform.

It was just a very sweet spirit. But most of them were in our temple. Those days, we didn't have air conditioning. So I could hear the noise. And the kids were noisy, as they are today. And the nurse went out and asked them if they wouldn't quiet it down, because Rabbi Lefkut's son has not been well, which they knew. so there was a slight diminution of noise but when the nurse came back they had a quart of ice cream and a piece of cake that they sent me I mean they just said hurry up and get well and it was there was a beautiful thing about the life in Dallas in my teens that there was no social distinction that I was aware of.

There may have been, but I was a pretty... I wouldn't say I was a naive person, but I took people at their word. And I had no feeling of superiority. Certainly that would be beaten out of me. Father never touched me. He looked externally at me sometimes. But there was no notion of superiority or of inferiority or of religious discrimination between Orthodox or conservative. And I remember in high school I was having problems with math I always had them probably going back to my illness when I was in confirmation class And Sherman Kaplan, a boy from Sheriff Israel, lived across the street from me, next to the Munsasheimer home, which later became the Max Jaffe home.

And Sherman would coach me in math. and Saul Levine was another friend of mine also of the shul the synagogue and so I have just as many friends, Saul Katz and I stood next to each other at ROTC I mean we were just friends without labels naturally we were Jewish but we were proud of it and we saw no reason not to be and it was a very warm beautiful relationship that I wish our kids could have today. Of course, life has speeded up so, and there has been such as spreading out into the suburbs. You don't have communities like that. It was really a community there.

Going from Forest Avenue, South Boulevard, Park Road, and even Grand Avenue in the old South Dallas days. What about the extent Now, you've already mentioned that, of course, you had more enriched observance in your home than most of your congregants, certainly many of them. What were the holidays like? I like to call them the holy days because that's probably because of my background. They were a lot faster since I'm 11 years old. I mean, just because we were reformed and Pop was so-called classical reform, that didn't mean any diminution of our, I was expected in the temple once a week, either Friday night or Saturday morning, as a kid.

And then the holy days I was expected to attend. I did not attend school on the high holidays or on Sukkot, Passover, or Shavuot, if school was on. And not only the first, but the last day. and it was understood that those were Jewish holy days and a note would be sent to the teacher or to the principal explaining for the Jewish students why a number of us would not be there and the observance of well the kindling of the blessing of the lights and the blessing my parents my father of his children was a regular Sabbath observance the holy days it was even more heightened and emotional and whereas we didn't have a family Sukkah you know outdoor Sukkah we did observe it with the usual produce festivities were displayed around our dining room.

And, of course, we always had a sukkah temple. And William Wallstein was the shamus of the temple for 50 years, in the days when shamus was an honorable term. And he had built a sukkah that we took pleasure in decorating and adorning with the usual fruits of the vegetables or whatever of the season. and Passover we never had bread in our house it was matzah although I can't say that I enjoyed it and I can't eat it today and we didn't have candy then later on in my life I had discovered there's such a thing as Passover candy I never knew that I'd get home and then Shavuos was the time of the giving of the Torah it was supposed to be very important And it was.

And so we had a thoroughgoing, as far as Reform Judaism was concerned, a thoroughgoing religious home. Father had, as I mentioned, after Friday night, we'd have these on a Shabbat, the different people, visitors, members of the temple come. Then he would always, he would like to read to me from certain books. in those days, no TV, no radio. I accepted little crystal sets. He'd read some of the books, some of Jewish interests, Jewish history, things which he was interested in, and he was interested in a lot of things. And so, and mother would play the piano and sing. She was graduated in both at the Conservatory in Cincinnati.

And in an American sense, though not in a traditional sense, conservative reform, orthodox, it was a completely Jewish home. There was never any question as to what was expected of us And that how I grew up and that the memory and that how my children grew up How did your parents deal with Hanukkah coming so close to Christmas and so many of the congregants We were Jews. And although you have a lot of rationalizations today about the Hanukkah bush and so forth, we never had that sort of business. Mother had the menorah. In fact, I have Pop's menorah. It was given to him by the class, or early class in Dayton, Ohio, big thing.

And that would be kindled, and the Papa would say the blessing, and the mother would sing the Rock of Ages, which Mo'ozur in Hebrew. And she would have a little table. Now, this was for me because my brothers and sister were all older. I was a baby. And she would have a little stocking. you should pardon expression, and she would have tangerines and nuts and little candy, mints, little round things. And then every evening after the Hanukkah meal was over and the light candle kindled and the meal was eaten, I would have my day as present. I mean, it used to be so exciting. And my Christian friend said, well, you Jewish kids are lucky.

You get eight days' worth of presents, and we only get one. I said, yes, but what you get on one day is more than we get in a day. And especially with four kids in the family, the folks had to play close to the vest. So I'd get articles of apparel or occasionally a bike or something of that nature. But that was very rare. but something that could be used because the salaries then didn't go too far with four children and to clothe and educate. So it never entered my mind at Christmas. I said, that's for the Christians, and God bless them for it, but for us, we've got our own holiday.

There was no problem about Hanukkah observance, and I never was in although I do remember and this goes back before Dallas days I have two friends who are twins we grew they lived back of us in Dayton the la with and we lived there We used to have under the table that Mom always had for us with a pot present, maybe a present of the evening and the candies. There would be a present for my Christian friends. And then they would invite me over and there would be a present for me under their Christmas tree. They knew that what it was. And that's 1920 that I left.

And to this day, every year on Rosh Hashanah, I get a letter from Thomas and Charles Hall. And every year on February 19th, which is their birthday, they get a birthday letter from me. That's been, what did it say? Sixty years now. So that's the spirit in which I was raised. My father was once called by a paper that came out, a slick paper, a thing called Big D or something, Dallas, called the... Well, Purim was observed, as always, with the reading of the Megillah, for one thing. Generally, it was on the Shabbat nearest Purim, although I learned to say Shabbos because I was raised in the Ashkenazi tradition.

The sermon was always devoted to the Purim theme or to a theme that would, by rabbinic manipulations, could be connected with it. You know, a springboard from which you can jump off in any direction, but the Father was quite a scholar and he could manage it very well. on the Sunday for a nearest forum we would have a Dallas a pageant Miss Bertha Jacobs would put on the grand delicate pageant there and I'd always want to be Mordecai and all the girls want to be Esther and everybody else you know that sort of thing nobody wanted to be Haman and they would have in those days in addition to the pageant they'd have the usual masquerade of the thing and the Gregors and the noisemakers.

It was, as in Jewish tradition, it was a half-holiday. Hanukkah and Purim are half-holidays, but in my later ministry I stopped it Because if you stop beyond go beyond the devotion of Esther and Mordecai Mordecai is more than Esther because he compelled her to, if you don't speak out, surely deliverance will come, you know, from another place. If you go on in the book of Esther, there's a retribution on the Persians of that time under Haman, who had been adherents of Haman. And I did not like the vengeful spirit of Purim, the happy masquerade, the Purim guilt and so forth, Shalachmonas, the giving of presents for the poor.

Yes, that's fine. But vengeance to me and violence to me was then and is now abhorrent. and it is that angle or attitude of Purim that when I was in Dallas I tried it was rather ingrained then but when I went to Shreveport after my Dallas experience I determined to eliminate the noisemakers and the English reading of the entire book of Esther because I felt that Judaism was more than a vengeful spirit after all vengeance is mine saith the Lord you know that sort of business so it was celebrated in both from the pulpit on Friday night and Saturday morning nearest Purim and then on Sunday school in the pageants and in the what do you call it the masquerades or the promenades and the judging of the costumes that the mamas had worked so hard to do I guess they still do in some places but generally speaking it was a very happy holiday and made serious by the giving of Shalop and Monos so to take care of those, or at least to help to take care of those who were less fortunate in the way.

Art, let's back up. Now, you said you wanted to eliminate the reading of the Megillah in English. Does that mean that you wanted them to read it in Hebrew? No, no, no. No, you misunderstood. I understood reading up to and including Mordecai's admonition to Esther to stand up and are going into Ahasuerus and the saving of the Jews the deliverance of the Jews That is the important Okay But not there I wanted to cut because the vengeance part at the end of the book was apparent to me, and is. Okay, but the rest of them you weren't using the groggers? In English, yeah, yes. I had to in Dallas.

I mean, it was a custom. So later on, in my own pulpit, I gradually eliminated. Where there was no grogger? No. Was there reading? Oh, yes, still is. Okay. Up until the point of the end. Yeah. What did, just out of the, how did people react? How long did it take you, were you immediately able to affect the change? Oh, no, you never are. Only the greatest fool would think, or the most naive of rabbis would think you could affect a change immediately. You know what happened to one of the rabbis, he tried something immediately and he was strung up on a cross. But no, it took several years.

Do they feel, do you have any people disagreeing now? No. No, when I explained to them that the positive idea of dedication to faith and to people was the important thing, not the vengeful part. that was to me it was alien to the spirit of what I was taught about Judaism ok this kind of leads us into how has your observance changed over the years not only with Purim other holidays has there been change in your own orientation no Shavuos is in Shreveport in Dallas we did it on the day the day of Shavuos But in Shreveport, which you have to tailor your activities to meet the different situation, the men, and this was later on, of course, work.

So we had the confirmation service and still have it at night so you can have a bigger attendance of parents and of the congregation because we want to make it meaningful to the young people. But there are services on Shavuos Eve, maybe you call it consecration services for the young people and then the actual confirmation is on the day with the Shavuos theme and both the biblical portion of the Ten Commandments and the Haftar portion which is traditional Rosh Hashanah as they say ain changed a bit As Reformed Jews, we keep only the one day, but it is observed with great dignity and solemnity. And I might say that in the latter years it has become one of the three major holy days, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and Confirmation when you get the biggest attendance.

Shabbos, you hope for the best. Depends on how many yartites you have to call out and how many you're going to have. But Yom Kippur was always, we started at 7.30, and we had both the vocal kol nidra, after the rabbi's prayer before the Holy Ark, Then we had, after that, I sat down. I stood there with the Torahs and the president and the vice president was holding the other Torahs. We had three. And then after the vocal conidra, I sat down. Then they had an instrumental playing. Then the regular reading of the reunion prayer book. Now we use the gates of prayer, gates of repentance, the news thing.

and it was generally 7.30 generally about 9.30 quarter ten there were no short cuts what about during the day of Yom Kippur your services how were they well it started out slow as it didn't in Father's Day the morning service at least at 9.30 and it would be a fairly good attendance and then around 12 o'clock and I'm going by what I do now because it's difficult to remember how dad divided it. He had members of the congregation reading various parts of the book and I do two but different parts than he did. Then at 12 o'clock we have an interim period so the parents can go home and get their children for a children's service.

See, ours is a smaller community than Dallas. Yes. and then at 1230 we have the children's service to 1245 during which the Ten Commandments are read again a brief children's sermon a sermonette is given maybe some of the children those who can read Hebrew have a chance to read parts of it take part in the service And then 12.45 is dismissal and then a brief break before we have the beginning of the afternoon service. And that is a longer service, as you remember, and in that as well as parts of the morning, I have some of my people read several pages from the prayer book to give me a voice break.

and then that goes on with the I used to give the memorial sermon at the end of the afternoon service as it was in the Union Prayer Book but I of late, of the last years of my rabbinate active rabbinate that is I waited until about 3.30 and at the beginning of the memorial service the Isker service after the opening hymn then I gave the memorial sermon and we read the ritual and of course the reading of the names of those whose yortzites occur at this time plus those who died during the year and then saying the El Malerachamim and then following which the congregation stood for Kaddish and another well we went right on from Yizker Memorial to the Nihilah concluding service and the breaks were made necessary partly because we have an entirely non-Jewish choir and they had to be given voice breaks too but also gave me a chance to mingle and walk around the temple and ease the strength of you're always a little tension on that great day especially if you're fasting and I visited with the people so for this a day where you're fasting nothing I I always have.

And so we ended up around 5.30, 5, 5.30, very... And then there was a gigantic rush to get home. And so I remember Mother, in the early days when I was with Father in Dallas, used to leave shortly before the concluding service. She'd stay for a good five minutes because she was only two blocks. And she would, and Dad would walk home, and of course in my three years with Dad, she would meet him at the door with a small dish of herring and the schnapps which was the old tradition They called it the Litvot tradition although Father was Hungarian but he still liked herring in just a wee bit I remember one anecdote that to me is very cute.

Papa would naturally thank the choir after, and she could wish the Janta to the people, as they always did in the old days before the Litvot. And we went back to his office and put our robes on the hanger. And then he said, let's go home. Because we'd always have one, although Leona and I lived in the early days in North Allison, near SMU. And then apart from Lakewood, we had three places we lived. We were walking home. We'd eat all these young people, break our fasted folks. mostly because we loved them, partly because of finances. It was awfully tough then, having a wife going to SMU and me when I was trying to be a rabbi.

Father would come home, and he would really be exalted. I mean, he had a look, a glow on his face, and to me it was beautiful. And we were walking down, and we just got near the railroad tracks, as I say, which are halfway between. and the public is good if he's going to say something I said what's on your mind dad? he said do you really want to know? he said thank God it's a year until the next one but of course he was worn out he was just absolutely wringing wet in those days that was for air conditioning so far but I always remember that was a great deal of amusement I would guess that you'd have some ideas to what the rest of the congregants were doing and how their observances were going.

Yes. And even though you stayed home from school and were rather observant, what about the rest of the congregants on an overall basis? On an overall, you mean an adult congregant? Your peers, going to school and not going to school. Well, also the adults as far as they're concerned. Some didn't, some didn't. In those days in Dallas, they even listed the businesses that were closed in honor of the Holy Days. Okay And they did it in Shreveport up to recently Okay And some still the ad in the paper that in respect to the Jewish this most holy of days this store will be closed on such and such a day In those days, it was pretty well, I remember how unhappy Father was when they started falling by the wayside, kept open enough.

But the owners would come to temple. Now, I don't think I know that they wouldn't stay all day. Usually some would come in the morning and some very faithful ones, and there were many in those days who would come and stay. Maybe they would take a break outside or go downstairs in the little steps, you know, the temple, while the children's service was on. Then it built up around the memorial service until they had a full house memorial, including there was never a pop in. Same with me. I never had a separation between them. It would go right on. I dare you to leave before it's over, before the final chauffeur blow.

But let me be honest and say that I'm sure people came back to Temple for the burping, I mean, after having had a good meal, I heard that as a child sitting with his mother in the back of the temple, and I was first learning to fast. I was just listening to Dad. I mean, I always-there was just something beautiful there. And the child with his mother was in front of us, and it was rather far back of the temple. I remember those exits to the old temple. We had some steps going down. We were behind where they exit. And the mother reached into her big handbag in those days, and the kid crunched an apple while during the service.

I was literally dying. But they stayed. So I have occasion to doubt the sanctity of stomach Judaism. Although I still fast, of course. Did you keep kosher? Did your parents keep kosher? No. My friends my traditional friends Sherman Kaplan and Saul Levine and Saul Katz did They were homeless After all they remembered the shore But at Temple maybe some did but I assure you they were in the minority Mm-hmm. Because as my father said, God cares more what's in your mind and your heart than what's in your stomach. What about changing dishes during Pesach? They wouldn't do that even though they would have paid moxas?

No, my mother would clean the mine. I would say the vast majority did not. Maybe those who came to Reform out of traditional Judaism would do that. You could have the badika swam into searching out of the leaven. Right. But whereas we did that, it was more like Pop tried to make it a game, so you can find the most. But as I said, we didn't have bread or candy or that sort of thing, those sort of things during Pesach. But we didn't have the change of dishes. Mother always washed them carefully, and there was never any ham or pork, because Father didn't care. later on maybe he had a piece of bacon but I mean he never could eat pork never could eat ham we were raised and I guess in a more modern tradition both in Dayton and Dallas that felt that whereas that had that validity in the early days whether as a tribal writer as a health measure it was not necessarily valid for the so-called modern Judaism of that day.

Although when we ate out, when we were in the presence of those who might be of traditional event, we always respected their feelings and never ordered anything that was not kosher with either fish or we never make male meat and so forth. I mean, that's a matter of courtesy. I still do that. For example, in the temple, I don't wear a yarmulke or talus. But when I go to shul, I do. It's the thing to do. Why embarrass them? It's, again, dera herds might be translated better, good manners. good manners um that you have always and only i'm almost loading the question here have you ever had any other Filiation other than a Reformed Filiation.

Me? No, I have not. And your wife was also from a Reformed Filiation? Yes, yes indeed. Her father was president of the temple in Portsmouth, Ohio, for many years, and upon his death in 1933, before I met her, her brother succeeded in a small town that helping happens, and they had students from Hebrew Union College come every other week. And it was on that occasion in 1936 when I was given that biweekly pulpit that I met would prove to be my wife. And other rabbis have done the same thing the other way there. What about Jewish organizations during the time you grew up in now as well?

Well... Your Dallas experience. And Dallas experience was mostly the youth, well, the young people. It was rather an innocuous organization of the temple in those days, but it was mostly, well, temple, of course, used for the Jewish Federation as it was called. There was no Junior B'nai B'rith in those days. There was no ACA. There was no... There were very... This whole youth movement came up and developed in the 20s, late 20s and 30s. ACA and then later the Temple Youth. When I was a young rabbi in Dallas, I was sent up at the founding meeting of the National Federation of Temple Youth. I was one of the founding delegates.

And as a matter of fact, before that time, at the direction of my father, I organized what was first known as a junior congregation at the Temple Emanuel, which later became a charter member of the NFTY, Nifty. And so I have been youth-oriented ever since then, which gives my young son, my children, My daughter was the regional president of what they call Softee Southern Federation. My old doctor son was vice president. My young son was a little shaver and he was active but he was never an officer He was one time an interim board member But he has grown in his interest in things Jewish and things religious And he's active, but in those days he didn't have that.

He was tied up primarily with the temple, as I recall it. And Jewish associations. Okay. I mean, my friends. Do you remember the Orthodox community? Very well. organizations well they too matured and for example they didn't have the United Synagogue youth in those days as they do now the Orthodox although I worked with the rabbi there as a young as Rabbi Abramowitz a good a second and I cooperated with Rabbi H Raphael gold of sheriff Israel and a couple weddings and I was very friendly with a lot of his members. And again, as I said, in the early days there was no social bars, religious bars.

I mean, there may have been some hardliners on both sides, you know, those reformers, they're buttering it down, are those orthodox, they're not American, you know, the usual stereotype. But I never felt it. My father wouldn't allow that sort of stuff in our home. We were taught respect for teachers, respect for learning, respect for every man, every individual's worth. You mentioned that you share the pulpit with Rabbi Gold and Rabbi Abramowitz. Well, not the pulpit. It was a home wedding. It wasn't a pulpit. Oh, okay. That's what I want to know. And I also did one with Rabbi Abramowitz, a bit of sassy. and I spoke once and my father spoke a number of times to Fereth Israel with Rabbi Annas there was a very for the most part a very cordial relationship in my growing up years among the various Jewish houses of worship and organizations the Federation was a very big thing with Dad And, of course, my brother, oldest brother's father-in-law, Nathan Mettenthal, was one of the founders and president of the Jewish Federation.

Based on my experience in Dallas as assistant rabbi when Reuben Resnick was the director of the Federation I organized the Jewish Federation in Shreveport and I was its first executive director What year was that 1940 But in those days, as I said, it was mostly temple or synagogue oriented, except for our play or school work periods. What about the attitude towards Zionism? Well, in my early days, frankly, I was not a Zionist. And Father was not, although he visited Palestine, as it was called in those days, several times. And the first president, then later chancellor of the Hebrew University, Dr. Judy Leon Magnus, was ordained at the same year with my father, in 1900 at Hebrew Union.

But Father was, I guess you might call him in those days, in a current of the universalistic school. And whereas he was certainly sympathetic and gave most generously for the relief, that was before the Hitler times, for the relief of the people there and for the problems they had after the first and second alias, he was never a Zionist in the modern sense of the term. Well, it's always been very interesting to me that he did participate in a Jewish National Fund book in 1938 or 1939 when it was published in Dallas. And I've been given to understand that he was supportive of a homeland in Israel prior to the war years.

He was supportive of the... humanitarian aspects of the Israeli experience, but he was not a nationalist. I think I might say that correctly. And so he was originally, I won't say he was anti-Zionist, but he was non-Zionist, as was I. Although in the last 15, 20 years, I've been a member of the ZOA. And I have supported it. And two years ago, I was given a recognition award, the ZOA Man of the Year in our area with some trees planted I hope they haven withered by now because of my earliest attitude We mature. After all, I was in Germany. I was in Dachau. And I buried the ashes of 5,000 Jewish babies.

And then near our base at Bad Kissingen in Upper Bavaria, they found the two railroad cars under camouflage with the bodies of over 250 Jews. I'd say Kaddish over them. How could I possibly be a non- or anti-Sionist? I still object in many ways to the emphasis of Israel to the detriment of the support of our houses of worship and organizations here in this country. I think it's sometimes overdone but there can be no denying that if it weren't for Israel even more of our people would have been lost I could never be an anti-Sionist or a non-Sionist again I may have difference of opinion as how the Federation apportions their money in the UJA but most Jews do two Jews, three opinions you know, that sort of stuff so I have no quarrel with those who differ from me except I differ from them Yes.

What about civic and cultural affiliations, your previous affiliations that you have now? I was a member of the Lions Club in Dallas. I carried that over in Shreveport. Don't forget, a lot of it was preempted because of my father's activities and eminence in various fields. but I attended many of the meetings with him and to hear him at the Critic Club his very fine essays to the Astronomical Society Red Cross and so forth and then in Shreveport then I started branching out I carried on the Lions Club and after the war I was at my desk one morning and I got a call from the telephone and said congratulations David you're the state chaplain of the American Legion I said but I'm not a member He said, yes, you are.

I just joined Jewish because I was the first rabbi that could qualify. And that started moving at that convention when I attended. And they moved me. I was the first Jewish chaplain to be elected, first rabbi to I was elected as a national chaplain of the American Legion, and there was not a single Jew on my committee. Oh yes, there was one, Sam Rubin of Monroe, Louisiana. I carried that on, and I was a founding member of the Symphony Society Board, of the Symphony. I'm a life member of the Red Cross Board, all the Jewish organizations in town, of course, and the neighborhood, the Federation, and, of course, the Safety Council, and then I'm on the board of the Cattle Committee Action Agency, which is primarily black, I mean, of interracial health, and the National Conference of Christians and Jews, the usual things, the usual boards.

Too much to mention. It's certainly not in any introduction. you always hate that he's a member of this he's a board member of that and the president and Leona has done work in interfaith multi-faith retirement center Herb Shore is coming from Dallas over to Shreveport to speak next month and she gets out their bulletin as well as the Jewish Federation bulletin and she is chairman of the Shreveport Daycare Association I mean she she's not not necessarily that we're joiners but we feel it's an obligation and the smaller the Jewish community I think you understand that the more we feel that Jews ought to participate in the things, the cultural and civic things the little theaters and other things that we support I was on their board and although I've never been a member of the Opera Association I go when Beverly Sills sings nice Jewish girl Let's talk about the housing over the years and the years that you lived in a particular place.

You mentioned that when you came to Dallas, you were born in the forest. 1833 Forest. That was only for a couple of years at the most. I mean, days of the hazy summit. And they folks built on 2415 South Boulevard And we lived there from early 20s actually The folks lived there my brothers and sister I mean they were in college After my brother and sister graduated high school I was still a little fellow more or less And we lived, they lived, folks maintained that house in South Boulevard until I got out of the Army, my brother and I got out of the Army, so that we would have, God forbid, if something was wrong, we'd have someplace to come home to.

In fact, that, although I would give Shreveport as my place of residence, Dallas was a place to be notified in case of my anything. So then after that, the community was changing. The Marcuses built way out. The Brombergs moved. The people started moving out to North Dallas and to the Lakewood area. That was popular. What year? About the span of years. Oh, it started in the 20s, late 20s. It started. The Marcus's and others. The Millers, Lawrence Millers. The Brombergs did not move in those early years. I remember I went to grade school and high school with Henry Bromberg, Jr., who was president of the temple, and a very good friend.

Then, of course, there were the friends from the synagogue and the shul. I always called the synagogue with Sheriff Ezra, and the shul was a good assassin in our parlance. They moved into the neighborhood. The Munseshamers moved from across the street. They moved first down to the apartment or duplex opposite the temple, the old temple. And I remember I had the wedding of Lawrence Munsesheimer Jr. in his mother's bedroom. She was, before she expired, it was rather not a very happy thing, but it was a very sentimental thing. He wanted her as mother to be at the wedding. Then when I came back to Dallas as a young rabbi, I found the place had split wide open.

The Goronzics had moved the Alex Sangers had moved the Levi who were next door to us had moved the Boas yes The Boas had moved, and up and down the line, the Victor Hexters had moved, the Freedmans had moved, And the, well, the Rosenfields had moved. Aline Rutland, who was for so many years secretary of the temple, she had married Rosenberg and married Julius Rutland. And there was, oh, down the other end, the Buckspins had moved on the other side of Harwood. And so they started going out to north and east Dallas. and have a meeting here. And, as I say, the Lakewood area and farther out, some in the White Rock area, the more affluent people.

Some moved out the Preston Road area, Highland Park and University Park and beyond the Preston Road area. That was quite the thing. And then... Was this 37, 38, 39, 40? It started then, yes. Okay. Yeah. But when I'd come back to visit of latter years, they had spread all over the map. I mean, the old Jewish community or residential era that we knew was almost entirely black. No disgrace or derogation in that remark. But the temple was bought by a black organization that was then torn down, as you know. And the whole area is changed there. And I guess if you would... Well, I don't think there is a Jewish area anymore in Dallas.

Not like South Dallas were. No, no, no. Not with the density of population. Your population. Look, you had the Eishoreth Israel, you had Gouda Sachin, you had the Temple, you had Tefereth Israel just a few blocks away on Grand Avenue. I mean it was we didn feel it was a ghetto The people there took part in their religious affairs their commercial affairs and their social affairs But we were all together I mean both the Anglicized Jews and the slow Americanized group had come in And there was no... Jake Feldman lived on Irvey, moved I think into the old Draftis home or right across the street on Irvey and South Boulevard.

and that was even in my day in my young rabbinical days but there's no lack of there's no cohesion I guess the nearest approach to it would be the Hillcrest area, Northwest Highway area because of the two synagogue, the temple and the synagogue and the Jewish Community Center which is out in that general area But as far as the home sites are concerned, they're spread to heck and gone. Now, you said that when you came back, you lived, after you were married, of course. Oh, yes. Your parents were still in South Dallas, and then... Until I got out of the Army. And then they moved to Maple Terrace because the house was too big for them.

All their children were married and gone. What year was it? Oh. Do you remember? I got out in either 46 or 47. And when they felt that there was no need, thank God, I returned well. My brother was not well at all. But there was no need because he was able to resume practice after some hospitalization. So it was just too much for Mother. And walking up the stairs for Pop wasn't easy, so they moved out to Maple Terrace where you could get a minion shouting around the elevator shaft in five minutes, you know. And I remember, of course, there was a nice Jewish man who had a very lovely wife, lived on the same floor that folks did at Maple Terrace.

She was Greer Garson, and he was Buddy Fogelson, and she said she'd gotten so many flowers she thought it'd be nice for the folks to have a little plant. It was a pancetta with typical Christmas decorations. But she meant it beautifully, and she was a gracious person, folks said. I never met her, but there were so many out there. It was almost like a recreation of the Jewish settlement. Was Buddy Fulton's a member of the show that Not to my knowledge. I mean, I may be in error. I can't say it. I never saw him. Okay. But there was no question about his Jewish identity?

There was. As far as I know, my departed brother, Lewis, said he was Jewish. And everybody that I knew mentioned that he was Jewish. His wife, a very famous movie star, was of course not. Of course he did. But that again shows the changing of values already. Yes. But today it's not at all unusual. Yes. That's one change. What about the rest of that neighborhood? Were the large Jews still in that neighborhood? Where? In where the Maple Terrace was, or was it just the apartment building of Maple Terrace? Was there any? Well, primarily the Stonely Hotel, the Stonely Court that used to be called Maple Terrace.

And now there's a new one right overlooking the park there, Riverside Park, Terrace Towers apartment. My sister-in-law, Ms. Blanch Lefkowitz, lives there now. Rabbi Olin lives there in that same apartment building, and a number of other Jewish people. But there are some. Mm-hmm. Okay. Did you ever have any of your relatives living in your home, either in, well, really I'm geared to Dallas. No. Was there any extended family living in my home that you remember? My siblings. Oh, yes. No. No. No, there was none. My brother, and one summer when the folks were out of town, my brother and his wife, Blanche Mittenthal, she was Blanche Mittenthal.

They lived there primarily to look after me while I was going to summer school, but that's family. But no, that's immediate family. So no, I would say you never know. And now when you came back after the war and lived in Dallas? I know. Oh, you didn't. You went back to Shreveport. I had months leave of absence granted to me by my temple in Shreveport to sort of reconvert to civilian life. So I spent two weeks in Mineral Wells and two weeks in Dallas. Then I went back to Shreveport and took off my uniform. I see. Now then, from the period of time that you came back, you were already married and you came back to be the assistant?

Already married and had two children Into 46 Yeah Now when you came back originally after rabbinical school and came as assistant rabbi I was married your father you were already married and you said you briefly lived in Dallas for those years, away from your family, away from your parents' house. Yes, we lived first in Granada, so my wife could either walk in good weather or I'd drive her to SMU, and then we'd schlep over across Haskell Avenue to South Dallas for Temple. Okay. And then we moved from there to Lorna Lane, which is in the Lakewood area, after she was finished school, and I'd have an equal schlep.

And then after, no, Lorna, no, before Lorna Lane, we lived on University Park. There was a four-quadriplex, I call it. The only Jewish person I know, Sylvan Mincer and his wife, lived there. They were members of the temple most days. And then our, that was I think the time our son was born, our oldest, Florence Nightingale. That's nice. Anyhow, then with him born we needed more than enough quadruplex and we rented a nice little home down the street from Jack Wertheimer on Lorna Lane, which was in the Lakewood area, right off of Gaston. And it was from there that I was called to Shreveport. Okay.

Was there any major marriage in your family? Immediate family? Well, immediate and even extended. Well, no. My brother's marriage, you know, my sister married Fred Florence. And then after he passed away, after a number of, quite a number of years, she married, we married Harold Weinberg. They are a devoted couple. Well, my brother's children, Lewis, Jr., married a nurse, NJ, and his daughter Emily married Victor Hexter II, and my doctor brother's children both married Jewish people. And Helen's, my sister Helen's son married a young lady I converted, received into the Jewish of faith prior to marriage and her daughter married Jean Gaw who was a Jewish boy Now my son is unmarried All right Let talk about My young son.

Okay. Let's talk about your, the couple with the nurse. What are her feelings to Judaism or with relation to Judaism? My nephew is a member of the temple and oftentimes he's a professor of medicine at Vanderbilt. I know they were being sent to Sunday school and sometimes Lewis Jr. before he was made professor sang with the Temple Choir there although he was no good shakes as a musician but he loved doing it and he was very Jewish at heart and his wife is one of the finest women I ever met a matter of her faith has never come up as far as I know And what about the kids?

What about their children? You said they've gone to Sunday school. They were raised in a very liberal home, but it was known to them that their father was Jewish, and I think that we've lost contact, really, because I have only seen them once, the family. But they did go to Sunday school, but actually, of the last four or five years, I really lost contact, except that I ask about them through their mother. So you don't really know if they're identified within the Jewish community or outside? I know my nephew is, but about the kids, I don't know. You don't know. What about the niece who has converted?

Or is it a nephew's wife? The lady who you converted. She passed away. Oh, sir. And so my doctor brother's children, One of the daughters married a conservative Jew from the Boston area, and they're now on the West Coast. And his son is a physician also. And he married a girl from Ohio, a Jewish girl from Ohio, from a reform but semi-traditional family. And their children, the children of those are being raised Jewish. So there's no questions about that? No, none. Of course. No problems within that? but insofar as the not asked this is a favor insofar as the respect to my brother lawyer brother memory that the son marriage be deleted if you be sublacious I'll disclose it.

When we transcribe, I'll delete that. Now, a general sketch of the Jewish community in Dallas over the years, is there anything that really stands strongly in your mind? Well, as I look back over the years, I look back over what to me in those days seemed like the giants. Herbert Marcus and Al Neiman, in the days when they were still associated, stood for the finest in both merchandising and in cultural things. E.M. Kahn, all temple members, certainly was, and the Sangers were represented with what I thought was best and still think is fine in our Jewish social and cultural life. Arthur Kramer was one of the men who interviewed Dead to come down from Dayton, Ohio to Dallas, and was at once president of the temple.

He certainly stood for cultural things. Of course, the singer Harrison, I don't know the makeup of the new generation. Teich Gettinger, both of them were, as I wouldn't say, and I'm not speaking in criticism or derogation, were not being the same class as, say, in the Neiman Marcus carriage trade, certainly were reputable, fine, dignified representatives of the best in the Jewish community. And then Saul Dreyfus was very well respected. And they had the medical people in the community, Dr. Sam Friedman, Harry Jablo, and then the newer group that came in from the German, when the Germans came. That's in my young rabbinic years and assistant.

Pre-World War II is what you're referring to? Yeah, pre-Yes. They got out just before the war. Yeah. Dr. Wassman, Dr. Paul Wolf, who delivered my oldest son. And there was some boot duck and I don't know whether it was both out there or Book sailor. Book sailor, yeah. His wife was a nurse. I remember she helped take care of Leona for a while. And there were many others in the Jewish community then. Then in the civic area, my brother-in-law, Fred Florence, certainly was a big name, the only Jew ever to be president of the American Bankers Association. I stood in awe of him until he started courting my sister.

and then he used to let me, to get me out of the house and hiding behind the sofa, he would say, take my car in for a couple of hours. Of course, it was a nice Cadillac convertible and I was only too happy to oblige, but he was always very gracious to me. In my adult years, he was never condescending, always warm, and he was always, whereas he knew more about the business of this country and the community than anybody else in the family, When Papa spoke or when even I spoke on Jewish things, he'd always listen very respectfully because he was, with all his activities, with the state fair and everything, he was a dedicated Jew.

And grew up in a little town in East Texas, Rusk and Alto. There was a mayor of Rusk that swept the floor of the city hall. And he came to Dallas as a young man, a young banker. And when I first knew Fred, possibly before he married his sister, he was the vice president of the Republic Bank. And it was, in a certain sense, a monument to his memory. And interestingly enough, Fred and my father, you know, they always have the athlete of the decades before. 1950 were elected among the 12 Dallasites who were Dallasites of the first 50 years. But it wasn't them alone.

They did contribute in a financial way and in a spiritual way. in a cultural way, both of them. Dad, I like to think, in his own inimitable way. But there were so many others. Nathan Mettenthal, who was an insurance man, helped in the formation of the Jewish Federation He elected as a president I mean Jewishly committed people without labels Orthodox conservative and reform committed Jews And from the synagogue and the shul, there were people who gave so much to help the oppressed and the needy. I can remember my next door, well, he lived across the street from us on South Boulevard, Max Jaffe. He was a very pious Jew, ultra-pious, would walk rain or shine, wouldn't smoke, wouldn't light.

If light was left on on Shabbos and so forth, that light stayed on all during the day, no cooking, everything, complete observer of the Sabbath. And he was, came up through the ranks of scrap metal business, as you know, and he had lucked into an oil deal and oil business and among gifts to charities in addition to raising some fine sums Morris and Irving and Herschel whom were my friends. Herschel was my first college roommate in Texas. He gave the Talmud Torah to the Agudasafim. I mean there were all phases and all color of Jewish life in Dallas, it was, it represented to me the ideal situation, whether it was the rabbis who did it, whether it was my father of blessed memory who was helpful in motivating that.

I think they all played a part. Were all these people involved in Jewish activities as well as Dallas cultural life, like Kramer and Marcus and Harris and Dreyfus and some of the other, Teich. Yeah. Marcus and Kramer, particularly in cultural affairs, Fred Florence and civic affairs. Jewish affairs. Jewish life as well. Well, by their own participation. Did they all participate? Go ahead. Yes, they did. Herbert Marcus was, until his illness, was certainly a prominent person in Temple of Pharisees I remember when I preached in Dallas after Levi retired one of the first people to walk down was Aunt Minnie Marcus to say good Shabbos to me at the foot of the pulpit I mean, there was a sense of this is my temple, this is where I live spiritually.

And it could be said about the majority of them, not in the same degree, of course not. not everyone can be burning flame all the time but I think we had an outstanding group of Jewish people in my early years in my early rabbinic years here and so far as I know they still do but I have lost contact after 40 years in Shreveport I mean except for visitations occasionally sad and happy occasions I think I was been in the temple twice. Once when I preached and once we had a meeting over here and I attended. Well, do you have any memorabilia that you would tell?

Well, I tell you, Ginger, I have a whole file drawer just chopped full of Father's sermons. I have a copy of my father's manuscript copy of his thesis. He wrote Mysticism in the Zohar, which is a very esoteric subject, especially among the Pharisees and rabbis. But he was quite a scholar in many languages he read, and six or seven he spoke, or could speak, maybe not fluently, but could be understood. Pictures, yes, that are in albums of various kinds, my younger years, some even preceding my birth. There's a picture of mother holding my two, or sitting next to my two brothers and holding my sister, and then she was reading a paper, and it said, 1906, terrible San Francisco earthquake.

I mean, which dated that picture. and other things, pictures I have of fathers speaking in various places, mother active in the visiting nurses. She founded the Visiting Nurses Association in Dallas. I want to ask you about that or tell me about that Well she felt the need of visiting nurses Not everyone even in those days could afford a registered nurse How she pull out How she do that I don't know. Maybe it's because of Father's prominence and with the help of some of her Christian friends and Jewish friends, she got this BNA started, Visiting Nurses Association, and she was its first president. Was she involved with the Minnie Hexter milk flan?

Do you know anything about that? Well, she and Minnie Hexter were very dear friends, and I'm sure she was, but I don't know the details. Do you have any other things that you could think of that you want to add, things that we should be aware of? No, except, and these are the reminiscences after many years, the rabbis do not have the same respect from their congregations that they commanded in the early years not commanded they merited I don't think they merited them any less today but the so-called nuclear family nuclear society people have so many concerns is a secular age. And I think, too, a more permissive age.

I think our young people, that is, 40 and below, up to 40, and even some older, are missing a sense of sentiment, are missing a sense of belonging, a sense of identity, who they are, where they are, what they are, why they are. and maybe it all goes together as the religion has in many respects been superseded by the marketplace has been crowded out by world events and as Dr. Marcus pointed out last night it is our opening session of the Jewish Historical Society in Texas now it's perhaps needed more than ever before And I can chew on these things now. I'm retired, and I'm teaching in a Methodist institution in Shreveport, a college.

And I spend 90% of my extra work, pulpit work, extra college work, in interfaith relations, because I was trained. on that by my father. Well, I certainly thank you. Thank you, Dixie. Okay, Rabbi, earlier you mentioned the fact that you were a chaplain in the European area. I was a chaplain, Air Force chaplain in England, and then a week after V.E. Day, I went to Bodkissingen in Upper Bavaria. and from there I had in the last six months of my stay in Europe I had the northern half of the American zone of occupation and Rabbi Louis Milgram an Orthodox rabbi, a very dear friend had the southern half and so I traveled from base to base and had the DP camps in my area the principal one was Zalsheim at Hearst between Frankfurt and Wiesbaden.

And then I also was in Dachau, where a very traumatic, for me, traumatic and for our people, our people event took place, where upon visiting the camp, I was told that the ashes of 5,000 Jewish babies, and with a great deal of difficulty, I forced myself to say Kaddish because it was an emotional thing that perhaps will stay with me as long as I live. And shortly thereafter, not far from my headquarters, by the Kissingen, that is, the headquarters of the Ninth Air Force, I was a Jewish chaplain there. The American military government found, through what agency? I don't know, two freight car loads on a camouflage siding.

Two freight cars. And in those freight cars were the bodies of over 250 Jewish people, what was left. The only way you know were Jews, you could find some decomposed or tattered yellow stars of David on what had been their garments. And what they did was get a bulldozer and manhandle those freight cars literally manhandle those freight cars into the deep ditch And once again after the earth was covered to say Kaddish It was something that I guess will be with me as long as I live I'm an emotional person anyhow, but I really overflowed at that time. I mean, my sense of just complete devastation and realization.

I knew what had happened. I saw the combat films. I saw the actual films of what had happened. But this I saw a touch and felt. I was a... As I said, this I touched and felt personally. I did not just see it in films or in combat photographers' work. And having put my arm in the ashes, those sad ashes, I for years after for at least ten years I would wash not only take my bath regularly but wash my arm to try to wipe away somehow the stark misery of what I'd seen and even now from time to time I think back over those years and And about a year ago, my nephew from Dallas, David Florence, sent me a book by Lucy Davidowicz.

And in the front cover, he had a description to me. He mentioned those items that I discussed at Dachau and the railroad siding and ashes. And every time I passed by that book, I mean, something runs through me. I don't know what it is. I do know what it is, but it's something that's hard to verbalize. You mentioned your dealings with the DPs after the war. Yes. After the VE day. Yes. Would you please tell us about that? Well, the principal place I visited was Salzheim, between Frankfurt and Wiesbaden. And I used to visit there at least every two weeks taking some salami or some things And then I had the men at the various bases I covered which was as I said the northern half of the American zone of occupation and the Air Force units, right home to their parents, their sisterhood, and so forth, brotherhood, to get clothing, food.

And it began to arrive, and it was sent in my care at the 9th Air Force headquarters. and finally the day came when I was due to return home on what they called rotation then and my chaplain's assistant a fine New York boy at whose wedding I later officiated but this was well before got a big trailer and we loaded it full of all the clothing and food things that we'd taken And we drove from Badkissingen due west to Frankfurt, and then from Frankfurt to Zilsheim, which was between Frankfurt and Wiesbaden. Now, we hadn't told anybody when we were coming. We hadn't told anybody about my orders.

But through some spiritual osmosis, they must... I don't know how it happened. we were met at the gate by a horde or as many as were mobile of these our people some still in their prison garments or what had been some in hand-down clothing, ill-fitting but with their gaunt bodies literally blocking the jeep and the trailer I was concerned not worried, but I was concerned that God forbid one of them should get hurt after all surviving it all And they wanted to push. They wanted to pull. God knows where they had had the strength. So I said to my Alan Baron, my young assistant, I said, Alan, drive very carefully.

And they were most orderly. They were no problem. As I mentioned in our earlier conversation, I had the biggest Mug and Dovid on my Jeep that I think was in Germany. So there was no doubting who I was and what I was. And when they saw that, they literally, well, they literally went up, you know, got on high. But they were most orderly. We drove to the UNRWA headquarters, a camp, part of the camp, and the director was there and he assured them And he spoke their language fluently and I only haltingly No German or no Russian or Polish but some Yiddish but mostly college German He spoke to them and said, all will be taken care of, you will all get something.

And after it was done, we had a brief service. They invited me for a little party at Farewell. I said, what, Farewell? He said, you're leaving us. I said, yes, I am going back to America, but how did you know? He said, I don't know, but we knew. So we went in, and the director, the UNRWA director, had provided ice cream and cake, which was probably the first time in 15 years these people had had it. So it was nice, and I tried as best I could to communicate for my very limited Yiddish and my very poor, ungrammatical college German. But we got along. They smiled with me, not at me.

And they knew I was one of theirs, and they were one of mine. So after that there was to be a presentation. And one member who spoke a little English, extremely accented, said, Herr Rabbi, here is something I'd like to have, a bar of soap. I said, a bar of soap? I said, to myself it is. So commonly you can get it for a nickel at the PX. It's ten dollars on the German market I could have get. So I evidently looked, so what? He said, but you don't realize, Rabbi, this is a special bar of soap. It was made out of ashes of many, many Jewish babies.

I couldn't hold it. And he dropped it to the ground. And he saw that it was an emotional thing with me, and he said, well, I have something for you. He said, I'd like you to have this. We would like you to have this. It was a beautiful lampshade. Lampshade? But was I going to take a lampshade home in all my footlocker and all the boxes I was sending home, my books and so forth? And he evidently again saw my face in the look of what happens here. He said, but you don't understand. This was made out of the skin of the rabbi from Leipzig.

Now whether it was actually from the rabbi of Leipzig, it was a tattooed skin from one of our people. But that's what the man said. Again I dropped it to the ground. I just like fire touched my hand and I said I can't do this. I said as best I could. So finally he said here is something Rabbi you can, you will, you must take. I said what? He brought out something very it smelled to high heaven. I said what's so special about it? He said well we've We've hidden this under manure heaps, in the latrines, under our mattresses, between our legs. It is this that has only, and only this, that has kept us going throughout all the years of our imprisonment in concentration camps.

And I had to look. And I opened it, and what was it? A siddur, a prayer book. And that tears began to flow down my eyes. He says, in his final words to me, and I just couldn't take it anymore. Emotionally, I was just ripped right open. He says to me, Gagelzente heit, Rabbi. Vergist uns nicht. Go in health, Rabbi. Don't forget us. And it is that that formed the basis of my early talks on my tours for the UJA. Forgest uns nicht. Don't forget us. And I never can. And it is because of those experiences, because of the depth of my feeling and my emotion, that I could never after that be indifferent to the fate of our people and their future in the state of Israel.

Whereas it had previously been somewhat different. So you might call it the conversion of chapter Lackowitz. Over and out. Now I want to go back one more time and pick up on two things in your Dallas experience. Maybe. All right. One of the experiences of dealing with anti-Semitism in Dallas, and of course the Pukul Xan in Dallas plays a part in that. And the second being information that the Jewish community got in Dallas in the early 30s as to what was happening in Europe Well so far as anti is concerned that is personally I felt it only once and then it was not very well disguised.

It was when I was a young fellow at Colonial Hill School. And there were some bigger fellows, and I was a little... I was the runt of my family. I'm only five, nine and a half. My brothers are both over six feet. And I was still in... What do you call it? Nick-lockers. Nickers. And long stockings. And some guys tried to be smart, and I said, I'm a Jew and I'm proud of it, something like that. in those days. Still, in other ways we do it differently, but same idea. Well, they said, we're going to fight. A nebbish fighter. I could fight. I couldn't break through a pound of butter.

We're going to take care of you just after school. I was just biting my fingernails and wondering what the heck. But they didn't fight themselves. They got another Jewish boy. And he beat the living daylights out of me. And I came home with black eyes and everything. I didn't have glasses in those days. And my father asked me what had happened. I'll not mention the boy's name, because the family, I think, may still live in Dallas. And my father called up, and he raised Holy Gehenna. And the boy came down and apologized. And they said if he didn't do it, they would beat him up.

Well, that was personal. That was the only instance in Dallas that I ever had personally. Now, as far as anti-Semitism goes in the KKK, I personally, both as a young person and as a young rabbi, had no experience. I only know of it through the lips of my father. There were moments when, well, it was very difficult. The police department the city establishment the city administration were just ridden with them And this This is again sucking man through father lips and I remember it well A convention of black ministers, in those days we called them colored, convention of black ministers would meet in Dallas, and were on the steps of the city hall on Harwood.

They'd be greeted. But the mayor wouldn't greet them, and none of the city establishment would greet them. And they tried to find some of the leading citizens to greet them. And someone got to a phone and called Dad at the Temple on South Boulevard. He jumped in the car and said, hold him there. He jumped in the car and raced down Harwood. I don't know whether there were traffic lights, but he came quickly. And he apologized on behalf of the right-thinking citizens of Dallas, those who didn't have the courtesy that was always extended to visiting groups, especially of ministers. And as a colleague and a fellow human being, he said, I want to welcome you on behalf of these people, these good people.

And he said, there are more good people than bad in Dallas. And there were. well the word got around that my father and Alex Sanger and Max Rosenfield were the ringleaders of anti-KKK group I'm sure there were others and again this is as told to me you know father's story as my father told to me and they threatened to run him out of town and these other two leaders in the Jewish community at the time out of town on the rail, tarred and feathered well he didn't So it happens that my father was a Scottish Rite Mason, ultimately a 33rd degree Mason, as was Asher Mintz and a couple others.

And one meeting in Lodge, they call it the Lodge, I call it, he got up. And I can't reveal the inner workings of the Masonic Order. It's not kosher, you know, not permitted. And he said, I know where you became a Mason, and I know what made you a Mason. Believe in God and the brotherhood of man and yet you have the nerve to leave here and put on your bedsheets and terrorize the community God blank you Expletive deleted. I don't know whether father actually said that, but he was so mad. And a couple of them came up to him and complimented him on his nerve.

He said, no, I was only stating what I believed and what I felt was right and fair. He said, I'm a citizen of Dallas. I'm an American citizen. I happen to be Jewish, and you happen to be Christian. Why don't you live up to the beliefs of the founder of your faith? And there was some unpleasantness, as you know. There was Hiram Wesley Evans, who was the imperial wizard, for want of a better name. I could tell him something else. and I understand my father had a couple of meetings with him, but I can't verify it. But he stated his opposition in no uncertain terms.

But in the early 20s, which would place at the early time of my living in Dallas, there was quite a bit of unpleasantness and a number of cross-burnings that nodded our home. And again, we were not personally involved other than the threats made to Dad and to Rosenfield and to Alex Singer. But it was a time of, we were concerned about it because Dad was outspoken on behalf of what we would call today social justice. And these people were as then as now, narrow, bigoted, just ingrown rednecks as we call them in Louisiana. You'd call them hillbillies here, I don't know what you'd call them.

Rednecks. Rednecks also. And it was a very trying time. But personally, that one time at this Colonial Hill School and then one time in the Army only, twice. I was one time in the Army in California at a cadet base. I used to go out with the men I knew, not all Jewish, but to go at the firing range because I used to fool around with that sort of thing. And the firing range officer, who had been on Guadalcanal and was sent back, in the hearing of several of the people there, said, of course, Rabbi, you can come out. I'm glad to see a rabbi is out and not back so far.

I wasn't making money out of gasoline. I said, it's fortunate, sir, that I'm a chaplain or else I would meet you somewhere. Well, the word got back to the Catholic chaplain. And he threatened to blow the place apart. He is still today at this stage, all these years later, one of my dearest of friends. And he is a ranker. He was a heavy, he said, Irishman and a lover, loving man. He said, I'll get that man. I said, no. He's been through hell that we don't know in Guadalcanal. He was a flyer. I said, if you'll only apologize before the men who were there, I'll be satisfied.

I said, no, no, no, no, no formal action. And then another time in Europe, there was a change of chaplains, and I had to clear the 9th Air Force headquarters to come home. And I went to this chaplain, who shall be nameless, and he had to give me my efficiency reports and ratings so that I could go home. And I got S which is just barely endurable I said sir after I noticed it I went out the Agent General office I got it marked and I went back up I said, sir, how can you do that and justify it in the face of every other entry in all my record that is done every six months is marked superior?

I said, if it is not changed, this will be brought to the attention of the Inspector General. And the assistant chief of staff, not a Jew, heard about that, and he wanted to take action. But I said, no. All I want to do is get rid of him, or get gone. I'm not out of service yet, but I don't want any part of any problem to create dissension. But those are only two times I've ever personally experienced anti-Semitism myself. Then to my father, the communications with this case was okay. Did the sergeant apologize? The sergeant? The guy on the rifle range. No, he was not a sergeant, he was a lieutenant.

Lieutenant, pardon me. He sure did. What about on the other, was the other officer? No, I just said kill him to the general. Do you remember any of the reports coming back from Europe How long by the way how long did you travel for UJA and talk after the war Oh about four years until everybody heard my story Then I'd do it locally and take part in the Pepper Repers with the campaign. Do you remember any of the attitudes or reactions or information that was received in Malice about what was happening to Jews? Well, maybe later, but it goes back to the 30s. I remember when I came back from the war, and Father was not, we was getting along in years, but was well then.

He said, tell me, son, is that all true that we read in the paper that we heard? Sometimes we saw, isn't that just propaganda? You know, they talk about in the First World War, the Germans clubbing Belgian babies and so forth and violating the women. And some of that was proved to be propaganda. I said, no, Daddy, it's not propaganda. I saw the films, but even more, I saw the people. It is all too true. The people in Dallas and in the United States generally, Although they were told they did not understand the full import of what had happened there No But then their men came back All of us came back not just chaplains but all their men their sons their husbands came back.

Some from the Pacific, more from the European theater. And unfortunately they brought back pictures too. And then we started getting the verse to the refugees. And then we knew, then they knew, I knew, of course, through my personal experiences, but it was the amount of ignorance, and I think a great part of that, though I can't be sure, was due to the indifference of the State Department and of the late President Roosevelt, who was gladly respecting and revered, but was not too interested, an interest enough to send so many trucks for 100,000 Jews when he could have done it. They spent a hell of a lot more, pardon the expression, on things that were of less humanitarian value.

But that is a personal assessment that I don't think all of my fellow Americans share. Okay, I thank you. Thank you.