Ernie Owens
Ernie Owens was born in New York City. After leaving New York he spent a year in California, which he did not care for, and then came to Dallas around 1938 or 1939. His move was connected to family in the apparel and manufacturing trades: his brother-in-law Irving Gold, who had been in the Venetian blind business in New York with partners, opened a plant in Dallas, and it was through this family connection that Ernie made his way to the city. When he first arrived, he took whatever work he could find, starting out loading freight cars for A&P and later working in a shipping department for a Dallas firm.
In 1940 Ernie joined Nardis of Dallas as a shipping clerk, a company he would remain with for about 41 years. He recounted the firm's origins in 1939, when Irving Gold put money into a dress business run by Joe Sidron, whose name reversed inspired the Nardis label. Irving's brother Ben Gold, who had run a taxi business in New York, came to Dallas and eventually became the driving force behind the company after buying out Joe Sidron in 1940. Ernie described Ben Gold as an intelligent and independent businessman who hired top talent, including designer Abe Sapruda, and who once walked away from a large JC Penney account rather than be dictated to.
Ernie watched Nardis grow from a small shop above Bogan's Market on Main Street to a large operation with plants in Irving, Kilgore, and other locations, at times employing hundreds of workers. He served in the Army from 1942 to 1944 and then returned to the company. He recalled how wartime demand and a fortunate stockpile of corduroy fueled the firm's growth, and how the business eventually declined and closed around 1980 after Ben Gold died in a 1965 automobile accident and his sons took over. Beyond Nardis, Ernie offered vivid memories of the Dallas apparel district around Commerce Street, life in the Oak Lawn area, and the changes brought by the Apparel Mart and the decline of the traveling salesman.
Full Transcript
This is November 25th, 1986. I'm Rose Biederman. I'm in the Archives Room and I'm going to be speaking with Mr. Ernest Owens. Mr. Owens, or should I call you Ernie? Ernie is good enough, Ernie. Okay, that's very good. I'm going to ask you where you were born. Were you born in Dallas? I was born in New York City. In New York City. And what age did you come to Dallas? And maybe you can tell how you came to Dallas or why you came to Dallas. When I left New York City, I went to California. I went to California for a year because I didn't like it.
Then I came to Dallas because my brother-in-law, Irvin Gold, and my sister-in-law, Steve Gold, came here and run a business, run the Venetian Blind business for years. He had a plant in New York City with two partners. In that business? Yes, in the Venetian Blind business. Uh-huh. And he came to Dallas and he opened up a plant, and that's how I come here. And what year was that? That was 1939. 1938. Okay. So you came here to work in the Venetian blind business? No, I came here to go to work any place I could go to work. Okay. I went to work for A&P, loading freight cars, and then after about a year, I went to go to work for an artist in Dallas, packing in the shipping department.
Well, wait a minute. Let's back up a minute. Yes. Who opened the Venetian blind business? Oh, Irving Gold had it in New York City. He had two more partners in New York City. Okay, but Irving Gold was in the Venetian blind business in New York. Yes. Came to Dallas and opened the plant. Yes. Okay. Venetian blind business. All right. Now, when did Nordisk begin? Nordisk began in 1939. And who started Norgans? Mr. Irving Go, Mr. Joe Sidron. Why did Irving Go leave the Venetian blind business? He didn leave the Venetian blind business He just used his money He was always his silent partner Oh all right His money is what they wanted Okay So he put his money in there and then after six months his brother came down from New York City And what was his brother's name?
Ben Gold. Ben Gold. And he came in as a partner with Joe Siddon. How did Mr. Irving Gold know Joe Sidman? Did he know him? Met him here in Dallas. Just, okay. Met him here in Dallas. As a matter of fact, his wife met around at the Cape, and they got acquainted, and then she talked to Joe one day, and he told me, she said he was in the dress business, and she asked him, how's business? Well, it would be better if I could have some money. So she said, well, I'll see if I can't talk to my husband. So she talked to her husband, and he put the money out.
Oh. What was Joe... So you're saying Joe Sidron was originally by himself? That's right. And what was he doing? He had business. Making dresses? Yes. Okay. Do you know how long he was in it by himself? He was in the business, oh, about two years, I guess. Oh, I see. Okay. And then they got together. He was up to his house for dinner one night, and they were trying to figure out what kind of a name they were given to artists. And all of a sudden they decided, let's take Joe's name and turn it around, put it backwards, make it an artist of dollars. That's how they did it.
Very clever. Yes, yes, yes. So why did Ben Gold come down? Well, because he was in a taxi cab business in New York City and it was no good. He had 120 cabs. And the union came in and pushed him around and pushed him around. So we had to get out of the business. You're saying that it was not unionized? That's right. And when the union came in, there were problems? There was problems. So we got out of the business. And came to Dallas. Came to Dallas. Is it because of his brother? Because of his brother, yes. His brother brought him down here so he could put him into the dress business.
But he really knew nothing about it? No, he knew nothing about the dress business. Didn't have that background? Never knew anything about the dress business. Never knew anything. Very interesting So actually it was He was a very clever man He was a very intelligent man Uh He was a very good businessman That why he got right on to Justin He hired the best help he could get. Okay. He hired Abe Sapruda, a designer. Oh. You know what year that was? About nineteen... I guess it was about nineteen forty. About nineteen forty. Was Mr. Subruder already in Dallas, or did he bring him here? No, he brought him here from New York City.
Brought him here from New York City. So he came down as a designer. That's interesting. When Ben Gold got into the business with Joe Sidron, they couldn't get along, so he bought Joe Sidron out for $2,500. Oh, when was that? That was in 1940. Well, did Mr. Sidron continue then on his own? Joe went out and went into business himself, yes. I see. So... He was a very successful businessman. So you're saying after 1940, Nordisk was just gold? Yes. Was owned by the Gold Brothers. Uh-huh. Irving and Ben Gold. Okay. And did it change in any way after that? No, no. What did they make primarily?
Well, they made skirts and blouses originally and dresses. Then they went up to evening clothes on the side. You know, they made evening clothes also. Yeah. Did they make suits? Made suits, yes, they made suits. Was that at the early time or...? Yes. Excuse me, just a moment. All right, so when did you come into the business? I came into the business in 1940. After the Golds owned it? Oh, sure. Okay, so what was your position? I was the shipping clerk. You were the shipping clerk, okay. Now, would you call the business at this time period, 1940, a small business, a medium-sized? Oh, it was a small business.
It was a small business. Yes, yes. But it grew up pretty fast. Well, what was their main, were their main customers just Texas or... Oh no no they sold Oklahoma They sold all over all over the country When you came in it was all over Just southwest or you saying all over New York City all over Oh really Yeah. Well, then how did they expand and become so large? They did become a large company, I believe. They did, yes. You see, they opened up the first plant they had over at Bogans Market on Main Street. Bogan's Meat Market was downstairs, and they were upstairs. Then they, after about a year, they were growing, so they went down to Lamar Street behind the bus station.
Now you're saying the first plant, you mean the... Yeah, the first plant was over Bogan's Market. Where the actual plants were... Very small plants, yes. Where they had dressmakers and so on. That's right. We had had sold machines. Yeah. So about how many do you, would you say approximately how many people were employed in actually making the dresses? Oh, at one time they had, they had. You mean when they began on both ends? When they began, when they began there, they had about 40, 40-year-olds. About 40. And they were actually sewing, did the complete... Yes, they completed every big garment, yes. They sewed it up the bottom.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And so when they expanded... And the sales went out and sold it. How many salesmen did they have at that, around 1940? Around 1940 they had about four. About four salesmen. And so you say they had to expand and they moved by the bus station? By the bus station, yeah. And about approximately how many? Upstairs over McCarty's. McCarty was downstairs. He was an assistant. They were upstairs over McCarty. So how large was the plant at that time? Oh, that time was a very big plant. It was run from employers over to young. And approximately how many people were then employed? At that time, then they had 400 people working.
Oh, my. And that was just, I'm sure there were no night shifts, that was just . No, that was just . Okay, and so I'm sure that they still expand. They expanded because they left them up to quite just some wood. They found their own building up there. And how large was the... That was a three-story building. About how many salespeople did they have at that time? Well, at that time they had about a hundred. A hundred salespeople? And in 1942 I went in the Army. And they, uh... So how did the war change? Well, in 1941, Ben Gold bought a hundred thousand dollars worth of corduroy.
And everybody in the city of Dallas left on them. Why was that? Because they didn't think it would sell. Why did he buy a thing? Well, that's the type of business the man is. He just liked it. He just thought it would be a good piece of material to buy and make some dresses out of. So it didn't go over, so they had to put the corduroy in Irving Gold's warehouse. Then in 1942, the war came on, and he was in like Flynn because he had all that material. Well, what did he do with the corporal? He made dresses, I mean, suits out of it.
In 1942, he was in the war came and he made suits out of it. And his quota was so big he was able to get a lot more material than anybody else. So that's why he grew so fast. Then in 19, I guess it was about 1947, he opened up the plant in Irving, Texas. It was called Clarence Street. You mean the label? Yeah, the label. And what was made? What was under that label? Was that suits or dresses? They made suits and dresses. Yeah, and skirts. Was this a medium price or a high price garment? No, it was a pretty good price dress. Did he, did the Nardis, did they do a full range of price clothes?
Oh, sure. Was it mostly high priced? High priced. There was nothing cheaper. So you would say moderate to high? Moderate. Then they opened up a plant that killed North Texas. When was that? I guess they opened that plant about 1950. And still retained the one on Irving? Yes, sure. And they had about 75 people working down there. Then in 1953 we opened up another plant and then went up here We got on the way to Kildare anyway. Okay. They didn't open outside of Texas, did they? No. So you're saying they had three plants at one time. um they told they sold to uh jc penny okay very big account with jc penny one day the big shot committed then those offices now listen we want you to make this garment and that down we want this price and that price mr ben gold said you know what you could do get out he told him to get out he calls all the salesmen until this continues aligned with jc pennies now why did he take that position he don't want nobody to dictate to him when he's in business he runs his own business and that's it even though it might have meant a very don't mean a thing to him when he does something he does it he doesn't worry about it did that was that a step back no it didn't hurt the business at all, no.
Then they opened the plan in Grant Salim. I would like to-well, let's continue, and then I'll-I want to ask, what is the position of Nardis today? Is it still- Well, no, Nardis closed up. What time? What year was that? About 1980. About 1980. Why is that? 76. I know. 76. Yeah, I was 70. Yeah. Well, you know, 1980, things began to get bad in the garment business. Why? The boys took it. The boys took it. The father got killed July 4th. About 1980? No, about 21 years ago. Oh. Oh. Yeah. 1965, he got an automobile accident out there. Ben Gold. Yeah, Ben Gold. He was at the Columbian Club.
Uh-huh. He was coming out of the Columbian Club and a truck run into him. Oh, no. Killed him. So the two boys took it over. And what happened to Irving Gold Oh no he still in the business Oh okay He never left the business Oh all right Okay The two boys took it over Richard and Alan Golds This is Ben Golds son Yeah Okay But before that, about 1963, Ben Golds decided he didn't need his brother no more, so he bought him out. Oh, alright. What did the brother go into? No, the brother was always in the Venetian Bar business. Oh. Oh. He was always the silent partner.
He was the silent partner. Yeah, sure. He got interfered in the business. So actually, Ben Gold ran the business. Ben Gold ran the business. That's right. I'd like to go back, if you don't mind, to the war time. How did that, did Nardis produce clothes for the armed services, or did they get into that aspect at all? I don't know whether they did it, because I was in the Army. So you were what? Well, I don't know whether they made you in the Army. But see, Joe Siddon was making garments for the Army. That's why he went into business and he got contracts from the Army.
But you're not sure if Nortis or Nortis? No, no. See, from 42 to 44 I was in the Army. So when you came out of the Army you went back to... I went back to Nortis again. How long were you actually with Nortis? About 41 years. 41 years. What is the company today? Do they still make clothing? No, no, no, no. They're out of business today. They're out of business completely. The boys got into the oil business, and they made a bundle of money in the oil business, and the dress business was in this black town, this black town. And they got careless, not taking care of the property.
So they just turned around and closed it up. They didn't sell it? No, they just closed it up. Okay. Just closed it up. Now you're saying about 1980 that the dress business was not so good. Is it because of the clothing being made in foreign countries, or what was the rule? I don't know what the condition was. Just somehow or other, I think, 19, maybe, they had to have a little compression of something wouldn't, didn't we? I think so Anyway And then there were so many things I guess it could be with the foreign countries too don't forget, there wasn't too many manufacturers in Dallas, and when Joe Sidman and Irving Gold and McCarty and them opened up that there was only maybe four factories in the city of Then they start to expand.
A matter of fact, Dave Saputo went into business for himself later on. You'd have to ask him for that one of the reasons I don't remember. But you're saying there were only about four. Well, maybe six. Well, um... Could be about six. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. But I think there was only about six or eight. Six or eight, that's it. There was Leach and there was Cartier and then there was more cellulite. Yeah, Marcelli, that's right. And Lorch's manufacturing. And Lorch's manufacturing. And Lorch's manufacturing. And, um, Lighten manufacturing. Yeah, but Lighten went into business later on. They went into business, I guess, about, uh, about 1970, I think.
Oh, really? Early on there was only about four or six gas manufacturers. Now when you say early on you mean before the war? I mean back in 1939. Before the war? Yes. Oh, yes. Dallas became sort of a apparel center. Apparel center. Why? What would be the reason for that? Because it's centralized. See, Dallas is centralized. people want to come from New York City, or they want to come from Oklahoma, or they want to come from other places. They can commit the dollars very easily. And there was a lot of garment manufacturers here, and then they opened up the apparel mart. Do you feel that most of the people that were in the business originated from the the East Coast from New York or the East Coast or?
I think they did. You think they did? Yeah. He received his cousin, or his nephew, Irving Glada. Another name of his company. Now did he come from the East Coast? Yep. So you're saying people received training there and came here? And also when they came here, McCarty and them there trained all these guys. And you're saying Justin McCarty? Justin McCarty. And he was not Jewish? No, no. But what do you mean he trained a lot of people? Is that a big operation? Yes, it was. It was a very big operation. What did they make? They made the same as we did. Just women's apparel? Women's apparel.
But it was a large operation? Very large operation. As a matter of fact, they were still in business, they're cut. I think their son is running the business. They're down there under Commerce and Young. Oh really? So Commerce and Lamar, yeah. At one time, and I guess this was, well certainly before the war, and maybe until the 60s, I'm not sure, most of the business people in the apparel business were centered on commerce and... Yes, yes. That was... That was like... That was like the apparel business. Can you enlighten me in any way about that area, about the people there, the life at that time?
I know there were a lot of people involved in millinery. Yeah, there was still a millinery place down there on Elm and Lamar. Yeah, that millinery supply. Yeah. But of course... The son is running it now. Well, nephew. He's got his nephew. Yeah. Very fine gentleman. Uh-huh. Very fine gentleman. Do you have any memories of life at that time in the apparel district, which was commerce? Well, they grew up real fast. That's the thing. They really grew up fast. What do you mean? All those people that was in that business, they expanded fast. The business just got better and better and better. What time were in the car?
You're talking about after the war? No no no no before the war Before the war it did very good Well what do you attribute that to Well because there wasn too many manufacturers in the city of Dallas at that time Would you mean then that this whole area of Dallas was like the center? Yes. There were not manufacturers in other areas? No, no. With maybe- Some of them had plants out of town. He's some of my plants in the prairie maybe, or Garland, or something like that. He had a plant in Garland. He was a good distance from Dallas at that time. Well, still considered sort of...
Like with us now, we had a plant, we had that plant in Kilnore. I used to go down to Kilnore every day, a little load of cut goods, and they'd sew it up down there, and I'd bring back the ready-made merchandise. Now why was it cut here and taken there? Because we had our cutting room here. Well why didn't you have the whole operation? No, no, no, it was cheaper to use. How was that? Because you had all the cutters in one department. Okay. So you're better off to cut your material in one location. All right. If you have branches, cut in one location and then send it to the other location.
In cutting, did that involve a lot of... They wouldn't have been able to control it enough. They wouldn't have the proper control over it. See, like with Ben Gole now, he was in that cutting department every day. And what would he do? What would he do? He'd walk around and see what they were doing with the merchandise. Yeah, they were spreading it, see if they got the right color, this and that. He was just working. He really was. So you're implying that control means a lot. Oh, sure. Is there a lot of machinery involved in cutting? Oh, sure is it. Yes, well, I have a lot of cutting machinery.
How many layers can be cut? Always layers. You can cut a layer this big. You're saying about a foot? Sure. Is that right? Sure. I guess that's right. They have a lot of orders on a certain thing that just spread and spread and spread and Then they'd come along and Abe Saputa would design it and then they'd make patterns for it and then they lay it there and cut it I see And so you saying it would be cut here It shipped to the whatever plant they had Sure Why weren the plants here where you would have people to sow it Well, because it would cost too much money.
The cheap analogy is if you went down to Kilgore, and you couldn't get the help. You know, you couldn't get too many women who didn't want to sit down and saw the machine. here in Dallas? Yeah. And what you're talking about, what time? Oh, well, this is after the war. Up until the war, they were glad to get anything. They were glad to be able to sew. Okay, so that wasn't a problem? No, it wasn't. Of course, a lot of jobs opened up after that. See, after the war, a lot of jobs opened up. Defense plants opened up, and why should a woman sit in a sewing machine and make nothing when she can go to a defense plant and maybe do what has to work and get good salary?
So that's the reason they went to the small town. Yeah. If you get the help. Is that all that was done would be the finishing, the sowing? Yes. The sowing and then they would bring it back to Dallas and ship it out. It would be cut here and then sent to the plants where it would be sowed and was pressed. And when the gun was pressed and then when the gun was ready for the lady, put her in a truck and brought her back to Dallas and shipped her wherever they had a ship. As you can tell, I don't know that much about her. That's all right.
Listen, listen. That's all right. So it's hard sometimes to know what to ask, but that's interesting to understand how that was done. Yeah. Yeah. They were better off. We couldn't get the proper help here. Where did the material come from? New York City. New York? Oh, sure. Was that the main or the only place? Yeah, sure. Well, New York City was the main place. So would that mean... All these big Peastris manufacturers, Peastris people were in New York City. How was that done? Would salesmen come with samples or would someone go to... No, no, the sales would come in and then, oh, no, no, someone would go to New York and to the different plants that had the material and they would pick out what they wanted Pick out what they wanted And they would ship it to dollars in big rows I understand Is it difficult to How do you decide on what you're going to...
Do you make a design first and then find some fabric? You make a pattern first. Okay. Then you make a sample. Alright. And then the samples, for instance, when they made the samples, the samples would go up to your power mark, and all the salesmen would sell it from there, the customers would come in, and they'd show all their merchandise, and they would sell it from there. Oh, I understand that, but I want to go to how-do you make a design first and find material, or do you see material and then make the design to- No, no, you get your pattern-you make your pattern first, that's the first thing you do.
And then- Then you get some fine material that would blend or would go with that design. That's right. I see. Then they would make a sample. And after they made the sample, when they got into the power mart, whatever they sold, they would come back and tell what they sold. Then they would calculate the amount of red, blue, green, yellow, white, what the fabric that they wanted to. Then they would order it from the peace goods people. From the mayor. Oh, okay. Well, it's, it's, it's all very busy. Yes, yes it is. Yes it is. But it's pretty bad today, isn't it? Especially in the paramount there.
The space, we've only got a paramount, the rent is so high, up and up and up and up. it up and a salesman can hardly make a living today by the time he gets finished paying his rent in the head in the fire mark then he gets in his car and drives it all over to see his truck in there and that price of gas and everything costs him a lot of money um i'm going to ask you a little bit about what was what was dallas like when you first came here oh no small town i lived in oakland if you wanted to come out this part of town when you got the northwest highway That was it.
All farms there for that. All farms. As a matter of fact, everybody used to live in Oakland. They stopped building houses this side of the North. Highway and buildings, buildings, building that too. What about downtown areas? Downtown areas? I mean, you worked in the downtown area. Yeah, sure. It was wonderful. You could park your car for $35,000, not $6. Did you have a car when you came? Oh, sure. Did you find life very different from New York? Well... No. No. Didn't live a fast life in New York, so you just lived a quiet life in Dallas. We lived in Old West, and we used to live down in Marseilles, much of whatever in Marseilles, and we used to leave there at night, and walk down to the beach, and come and get some ice cream, and then walk back to them.
Oh really? Sure, you could walk down and walk over the bridge and walk back to the bridge. You didn't have to worry about anybody shooting you. That's true. Today people would think that would be too far to walk. Today you got three locks on your door. Those days you didn't have a lock. That's right. Also, people would think it would be too far to walk. Well, those days it was definitely, they didn't mind walking those days, because they had nothing to worry about. Today you got some noise, that's all you're afraid to go to the grocery store. I tried to go to a restaurant day, lab and hold it up.
Well, but you evidently felt you had more time and you could do that. Oh, sure. How long a day did you work? Well, we used to work eight hours a day. Eight hours. Did you start extra early or that was not possible? It was not at seven o'clock in the morning. Was the shipping done mostly through trains or by truck By truck By truck Um would that be into the Oh, the Railway Express, Railway Express used to do big business. Oh, that's right. How did the apparel mark make it, when the apparel mark was built? How did that make a difference? Well, the difference was that it didn't cost much stock.
an automobile and that and there was more salesmen and every week there was always another salesman the manufacturer needs more men so he hired more sales he hired more sales he got bigger he got bigger and then they got bigger in the apparel market what was the apparel what was that the place where a salesman could have an office story he had he had a room he would have a he would have a room some of them would have a room half as big as this some of them would have a smaller room they all had a different different all depends what size business they're in how big a room they needed and what was what was done there was that just that that was just the the the samples were brought into that room and the customers would come over and go in and look at the samples they would write their order what they wanted to the customer and then they would leave.
Now would people, is that a year round operation? No, I think that's only about four seasons a year. Oh. Four seasons a year. to summer, winter, autumn, summer, winter, autumn, spring. Otherwise it closed Whenever the market what they called was market whenever there was a market then they would open up the apparel market They would bring their samples over there After about a week they closed up What was the situation before the apparel market? How did people take orders? Were there central? I don't know to tell you the truth. I guess they'd come in and go into the manufacturer and buy whatever they wanted and go.
It didn't cost that much money to come into Dallas at that time. But then a lot of people used to like to come in there and spend a week here on vacation and spend a dollar going while they're here. They'd buy stuff for their store. But it got so high, and the rooms in the hotels got so high, and it cost so much to come to Dallas, that people today don't want to come into Dallas and look at anything. They want you to go see them. Oh, really? So you're saying the traveling salesman? He's dying. He's dying. A lot of the salesmen, thank God, they've got good accounts, and they call them up.
and maybe one season or two seasons a year, which men will look at the merchandise and go. They don't go to the... They don't travel anymore. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the salesmen travel, but I mean the customers. But it's pretty hard. The salesmen have a very hard job traveling for them. You've got to do most of the business over the telephone, or if they come into market you sell it from the market How can you do this business over the phone Don you have to show the sample and show them Well you go see them You still have to make contact That's right. If they don't commit to market, you have to make contact.
I'm sure you've got to go see them. I know I must have skipped a lot of things. Maybe I'll just ask you if there's any particular stories that you might remember of when you were in the business. You know, when you're in that business, you don't pay too much of things. And then when you leave it, you leave it. But it is a fascinating business. Can you name any other people who were designers or that we haven't talked about that maybe come to mind? No. I don't think they used it. The artists of Dallas really was a gathering place for designers. Ben Gold used to get them in here and you have them so long, then they'd leave and go to work for somebody else.
If you do it, then they'd go work for somebody else. Where would he find the desire? Well, we used to go into New York City to buy your peach goods. There's different places over there, really. Yeah. All right. And he would actually bring many of them here. Oh, sure. They'd go to H. Scrooge here. with his daughter and his son. They were this big guy. I met him at the railroad station. He brought him to Dallas.