Fannie Ornish
Fannie Ornish was born in Poland, in the Suwalki region that was then part of Russia, and came to Dallas at about six years old, traveling with her mother, brother, and sister through Galveston. Her mother's family, the Leventhals, had come a few years earlier and were established in the fruit business, running stores downtown near Elm and Main. Her father, a painter by trade who had also raised and sold horses in Europe, joined relatives in the fruit trade during hard times in America. One of nine children, Fannie remembered a childhood of great poverty on Highland Street, where the family had iron beds, no bathroom, and bathed in tubs of water warmed in the kitchen, with children sleeping several to a bed.
The family later moved to South Dallas, buying a house at 1717 Peabody near Colonial School that felt like heaven with its two bathrooms and sleeping porches. Fannie described a vivid Jewish community life centered on the orthodox congregation Tiferet Israel, then located on Highland Street, where her father was among the first presidents. She recalled carrying live chickens on the streetcar to be slaughtered, the family baker Herman known for his bagels, the kosher butcher Mr. Byers, and Rabbi Swift, who lived across the street and served as rabbi, shochet, and mohel. She attended Cumberland Hill school and Bryan High, later Crozier Tech, and studied at Brown Business College on a scholarship after excelling at a newspaper spelling contest.
Rather than accept her father's wish that she attend college, Fannie went to work to help support her large family, spending 13 years as a valued secretary at Fox Film, where she started at about fifteen. She married Abe in 1928 and, after his clothing store with his brother-in-law burned, the couple opened Abe's Pawn Shop at 2312 Elm Street on Deep Elm, which they ran for 38 years until his death in 1972. Known for keeping their shop so clean that customers called it the Little Neiman Marcus, Fannie mended and cleaned pawned goods herself and earned deep trust from her varied clientele, many of whom affectionately called her Mama. She raised two children while working, and also managed apartments where the family lived in South Dallas.
Full Transcript
I'm Rose Biederman and I'm going to talk to Fannie Ornish and she has a picture that she's shown of the Highland Street Bunch. It was a neighborhood group of children and she's going to talk a little bit at least about this area. Now you say you came to Dallas when you were six. Where did you come from? Oh, you were born in Poland. I thought you were born in this country. No. So you came, did you come directly to Texas? Yeah, we came to Galveston and then right to Dallas. Why did you come to Dallas? My grandparents were here. My mother's people were here. And what was their name?
Leventhal. Okay. See, Leventhal, that's who Grace's mother married into. And what was his business? Did he have a business? They were all in the fruit business. They had fruit stores. Fruit store? Downtown on Elm and Main and right around the corner from Neiman's. Around Irby, you mean? Yeah, around Irby. No, wait, was it there at that point or was it farther west? No, no, they were... They were around Irby and Elm and Main. That's right. That's where they were. And so your father went into that same business? See, my father, he was a painter by trade. And as long as, you know, times were all right, he painted and he contracted.
He even went out of town. Because I know he did a big job for a flour mill in Corsicana. And they went broke before he finished the job. And we had to take it out in flour, so don't talk. Oh, you were doing a lot of baking. Oh, God. Well, in those days we didn't have a bakery. Oh, there wasn't? No, there was no Jewish bakery until Herman came along. Who is Herman? Wait a minute. What was Herman's name? Wasn't that Saul Herman's father that used to live off the park road? He used to work for Gallimonte Ho South House. His name was Saul Herman, not Saul.
His brother's name was Saul. Oh dear there was two daughters and two boys They were Herman and bakery Do you know this is Hilda Coble is also sitting here at the table Do you remember what year, what year are you talking about, Hilda? I really don't recall, but I know that there was a Herman that was a baker. Yeah. Now what about Shep's bakery? Well, Shep's was further out. But they were later, weren't they? See, yeah, they were later. And they used to deliver the bread, bring it. Yeah. They had a horse and wagon, and Mrs. Shep's used to bring the bread, deliver it to all the people around the neighborhood.
Is that right? Now, what Herman's Bakery was noted for was the bagels. And we kids used to come on Saturday night is when he made them. And where was this located? It was on Highland in the corner of Highland and Ashland. The building is still there, I believe. Highland and what was the other street? Ashland. Ashland? A-S-H-L-A-N-D. And that building, unless she sold it recently, belongs to Rose Wattell. And where is Rose now? I think, is she at Golden Acres or is she in a home? That's Minnie, you taste sister. I'll find out. Minnie, you taste sister is Rose. Rose, like the water. Yes. Oh, yeah.
Talk to Minnie. You talk to her and ask her where. And if Rose still owes you. She wouldn't sell that. We all sold ours. Because, you see, there were nine of us children, and some of them wanted to sell it. We wanted to keep it. But my brother, Phillip, let him rest in peace, he wanted the money. So we sold it and divided everything. So on Ashland Street? Mm-hmm. Now where was your lot, or where was your building? Or was it a house? I guess it was your house. My house, yeah. It was on Highland Street. It was the second door from the corner, because on the corner lived the Weinstein.
you remember he was the, he taught children he knew? A Weinstein? Was he connected with Sheriff Israel No no Bertha Bertha Tobias mentioned about a Weinstein who taught his things He was a rabbi or something wasn he He was A rabbi But what corner was this Highland and Hill Highland and Ashland And Ashland That's right. And there was a Weinstein who taught. Yes. He had a big two-story house, and they lived downstairs, and upstairs he rented out. He was a tutor, and yet he was a rabbi. Yes. And he was a rabbi. Did he have another occupation? No. He used to go to the synagogue.
That was Teferit, Israel. Was it Teferit then? I think so. Right. Teferit was in... No, no, Teferit was over in Little Mexico. Yes. In that area. That's where it was. It was on Highland Street. Teferit was actually on Highland. That's right. Do you recall the show that used to be, was it on Jackson Street? My mother used to say... That was Sheriff Isley. Well, my mother said they used to walk. That's right. We did, too. Well, of course, now we went to Ferris. It was right by us. Yeah. And in those days, they certainly wouldn't do it now, the women sat upstairs and we had to have a curtain.
Right, right. It was strictly orthodox. Oh, yeah, and how? And was Weinstein the rabbi? No, Weinstein wasn't the rabbi. I tell you, he used to be like a teacher, but you know who was the rabbi there was, wait a minute, he lived across the street from us too. One of the girls is married to the freed boy. Wait a minute, let me think. The wall? No. We'll come back to it. Oh, my mind is so good. Oh, that's, no, you're doing fine. Who is that? Jo's wife is Elaine Utham, that's your relative. And a Bearish girl, Doris Bearish. Bearish? Bearish. She was married to, who was she before she married?
No, she married to Sol Preet. No, but Mrs. Bearish, who was Mrs. Bearish? was Jenny, Jenny, Swift. Swift. That's it. That's it. Oh man Swift was the rabbi Was the rabbi That right Because they related to Sonny and Florence and Claire All right so they must have lived in the area They did They lived right across the street from us on Highland Street Okay, so Rabbi Schwiff lived across the street on Highland Street. And he had a big family, too. Right. Was he a rabbi or a cantor? Huh? Was he a rabbi? He was a rabbi. He was a rabbi. Yeah. And Sophie Schwiff. Listen, we didn't know from cantors in those days.
We were just playing. He was the rabbi, and not only that, he was the shepherd. And a moyo. Everything. And let me tell you. He was also the shepherd? Yes. Listen, Thursday, I don't know if it was for your day, but for Thursday, I used to go every Thursday. And we didn't have cars in those days. Right. And I used to get a basket, and I had three chickens. Two for us and one for my grandmother. And we went, if it was too far to walk, I got on the streetcar and the chickens would flip, they were tied, and I'd put that basket over and go down to Alamo Street.
And we had to wait till the, you know, till the chicken come from the slaughterhouse. And it was Thursday late after dark and he used to kill those chickens. And he had to take them home. Then he had to take them back home. Wait a minute, before we had to pick them, he had a big barn, no garage in those days, and he'd kill that chicken and throw it out, and then you had to go look for your chicken. That's right. In the dark. And then we had to dry pick them. And if you think we didn't get lousy part of the expression, I had to pick those three chickens, then I put them back in the basket that I had, and I went back home.
On the streetcar? Sure, on the streetcar. I did the same thing, you'd drip blood all over the streetcar, and people would look down at me, as if I committed murder. That's right, I used to do that, and then I'd have to get my hair washed before I could do that. Now, Thomas, I thought your grandmother was your grandmother. Yes, now, you mentioned your grandmother. See, my grandmother, that was my mother's, she lived right next door to the Schwifts. See, we lived on one side of the street and on the other side the Schwifts had a big house. It was built by the Robinsons. And then when some of the Robinsons, they had five or six girls, you know, when they got married, then they moved, the Schwifts moved, in that house.
And you know, a rabbi had to have a lot of, a big house. And we used to divide every Friday, we used to call them a guter eid. You know what that is? To me, it was a schnorr. Because he spent Friday and Saturday with us. And my father was among the first presidents of the to Ferris, Israel, when we were down there, you know, on Highland Street, and everybody he brought home. Right. And we kids, there was nine of us, and imagine, we slept three in a bed, four in a bed, on the floor, off of the floor, everything. We all did. That's what we did.
On the floor. Now, you didn't, your grandmother, was this Mrs. Leventhal? Yes. And she was already here when you came? Oh, yes, she was here. When did she come to Dallas? Do you know? Now, she must have come about, I imagine, maybe about three, four years before. They had to get up, save up enough money to send us. And when I came with my mother and my brother and my sister, the rest of us were born here. But when we came... When did your father come? He came with my grandmother when they came. He came first? Yeah. See, in those days, they had to steal the border because they wouldn't let them out.
Had to do what? Seal the border? Yeah, because if they were Army age, they killed them. So that's what he did. And that's what my husband did too. Many people did that, that's right. They didn't want to serve the... That's right. That's what they did. But oh, we... Where did you come from, Ingram? Suvalkyar Gaberny. It used to be on the map. I don't know if it's still... Was that supposed to be Poland? What was it at that time? Was it Russia or Poland? It was Russia. Was that the same as Kovny Gaberny? My mother was... Well, Gaberny, I think, meant like province or county, something like that.
And then the first... And one of them, one of the counties was called Crusty Pulley. I remember all those names because we used to talk about them I remember Mom used to talk about a town called Navarra Duck I don know It always ringing in my ear But they were all around there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And oh, you talk about people being poor. We were the poorest of the poorest when we came here. Now you said your father was a painter by trade. Yeah. to do much in that work? He did very well. Then they had a strike. In those days they had a strike too.
And then people went broke. And he couldn't get his money so for a year he didn't work at all. And we had, we were fortunate, we had a cow and a calf so my mother sold milk. So we had enough to eat on. And my grandmother lived across the street and she didn't know. And my father used to go and try to get work if he could. That's why the boys, you know, my uncles put him in the fruit business with him, because he couldn't get a job. Now you're talking about here, though. Here, yeah, that was here. But he was able to work as a painter in Europe and did fairly well.
Yes, and he also raised horses and sold horses too. That's what my grandfather did. And then when he came here, my grandfather was selling horses. He would raise them and sell them. Here in Dallas? Yes, here in Dallas. But then, after, he was getting old already, so he went to work for the boys in the food stand. And then when my grandmother passed away, he'd come over to live with us. And we grandchildren raised him, Kevin. Yeah, he was with us for years. And he used to help them in the store. They didn't want him, but then we used to fight for us plenty with the boys because, you know how he was older and he'd insult some of the women and everything, but you couldn't help it.
You know if a Jewish woman would come and start squeezing this or that, he'd get after them, but you couldn't do nothing with him. But he did he stayed with us until he lived there Now how long did you live on Highland Street How long did you stay in that area We stayed on there until I tell you it was getting so run down and everybody started moving to South Dallas Started moving to South Dallas? South Dallas on Peabody, Pennsylvania. About what year, what time was that when people started leaving the Highland area, you recall? You weren't married. Oh no, I married from South Dallas, we were living on Peabody then.
What year were you married? 28. Alright, so this would be back. Back, I guess in the 20s. Did you go to school? Did you go to grade school? I went to... what was the name of the school? I went to Cumberland Hill. Is that right? Yeah, I went to Cumberland Hill and then from there I went to, what's the one they just, no, I didn't go to Forrest, I went to the other one. Dallas High School. No, what do they call it? Crozier Tech. Crozier Tech? It was on Brian High. Brian, that's it. It was Brian High. First, then it became... First, then it became Crozier.
Yeah, that's right. I went to Brian High School for three years, and then I saw we, you know, we were, we needed the money, and my father wanted me to go to college. the college?" and I said, no, you say whatever you can for the boys, they need it more than I do. So the last year I dropped out of school because it was when Drone Business College was opening up and they ran an ad in the paper, misspelled words. Well, I was a shark at spelling. That was before I took shorthand. So I took, I went ahead and I filled in this misspelled words and in a few days a man came there and he offered me a scholarship to Brown Business College.
He was trying to get students to open up the schools. They didn't have anybody. And you know, people were so wealthy they couldn't afford it. So So he offered me towards a scholarship if I would start school start there because he wanted to get a few of them Uh So I started Bertha Robinson started that was that Cinnamon sister Uh-huh. She started, and a few more. Then, what's his name, Phil Kaufman's wife. Vicki? Vicki. She started, everybody did, because they knew if I was going, they wanted to go. And what year was this? In the 20s? It was in the 20s. In the 20s. It was in the 20s.
In the 20s, okay. It must have been way in the 20s. Okay, well that's interesting. So you started the business. And I want you to know, when I started, I had to promise my father that in September I would go back to school. Uh-huh. Well, I was a shark at shorthand. And that great shorthand was so easy for me. It took everybody three or four months, and in a month I was ready and I was helping everybody. helping everybody, not that I was so smart, but it was so easy. And they wanted me to teach there, because they needed teachers. I said, no, I'll never make any money teaching.
I won't go to work, because I've got to help my folks. So finally, I had a dressmaker that her son had one of the offices in Sears Robot. So I told her to ask him if he would give me a job, but I wanted short-hand and typing because I was good in both of them. So he promised me a job, and I went down and applied. Well, my daddy liked to have a fit, because he says, if you go to work, you won't go. I said, I'll go back to school, don't worry. And he did give me a job, $8 a week. Was that a lot of money?
In those days, everybody was getting $7. Oh, that's a lot. I got eight dollars a week and I gave my mother seven and one dollar I kept for five, because I had to go to work. What was it? Car fare. Car fare. Did you take your lunch with you? Sure. How could I do with it now? Absolutely. Okay. Took my lunch and I worked there about two months and I wasn't doing no shorthand. He made me an errand girl. I was running from here to there. And I said, look, I'm going to lose my speed. I won't know nothing. So I quit and it was in the summer time then and I told my dad I was going to make some money this year and next year I'll go back to school.
A job then, I remember my first job was at the Texas paper. And I worked there for about three months during vacation. And they wanted me to stay. But I said, no, you don't pay me enough. I wanted more money. So finally, I went back to school. I said, now, maybe you need somebody. You got somebody that wants somebody to work. So they sent me to, it was Fox Film, but they called it Box Office Attraction because they didn't have a license to operate Fox Film in Texas. And when they sent me there, I said, I don't want to work in a box factory. That's what I thought it was.
So they said, no, it's not, it's Fox Film. So I went there and I worked there all summer. And I was doing very good. But there, they had some fast people there. They used to work a lot at night. And the bookkeeper, she felt sorry for me. She saw I was wearing my hair in curls, and I was just 15 years old, and they thought I was older, because they wouldn't have hired me. I told them I was 16. And so then, I knew my time would be up, so the boss called me in and he says, do you like to work here?" I said, sure, I like it fine, but I guess my time's up now and I'll have to go somewhere else.
He says, no, you can work here on one condition. I thought, what is it? I said, one condition's alright, but I'm not going to work at night. I said, my folks won't let me work at night, because I knew they had parties and everything else. The bookkeeper had cautioned me that. So he says, no, you're going to have to wear your hair up. Oh, I said, that's nothing, I can wear my hair up. Because, he says, it makes you look too young. And I thought to myself, he better not ask me. So I did, and I stayed there for 13 years. You were a secretary?
Yeah, I became a secretary, worked for him, and then anybody from New York that come down, I would do their work, because everybody knew I must have been good in those days. And then And then when I was ready to get married they wanted me to stay on And my boss went to the wedding even and he told Abe that time he says she can pick her hours her days anything just let her work and he wouldn do it And I was so disappointed because I didn't have nothing to do. I never was a card player. I don't like cards. To me, it's a waste of time.
Now, when you went to work, had your family already moved to South Dallas? Well, they moved while I was working, because I worked 13 years for them. And when we bought this house on Peabody... What address? Do you remember the address? 1717. I still have it. It was right by Colonial School. Yeah. And it was right off, first block off of Colonial. Next door to us lived the Stein. You remember Philip Stein? Yeah. He lived next door to us, across the street, Rabbi Annis lived. And see, when my father bought it, it had to be repainted. Well, he painted it inside and out. And it was at this, at the time, when this, he was working in Corsicana at this flour mill.
And they went broke. And did we buy flour? We didn't buy it, we had to take it. You caught her the market. That's right. And oh, my mother's so fly to everybody, almost give it to me. And then we had to take some of their furniture. And they had some nice furniture. I bought the whole house of furniture. I bought it myself for my earnings. Because I was saving my money then. So I bought a dining room set, a living room, and a bedroom. See, I had to take it. Of course, they said it was cheap, but I didn't know. I bought it. And we moved it in this new house, because we didn't have no furniture in North Dallas where we lived on Highland Street.
What do you mean you didn't have any furniture? What did you... As little furniture as you could get by. Just the bare essentials. We had iron beds. We didn't even have a bathroom. We had an outhouse. Oh really? And you know how we took our beds? Hell. On Thursdays. With stuff. With a wash tub. What, in the kitchen you mean? We had one big bedroom that didn have it was a wooden floor and my mother would warm the water in the kitchen bring it in three or four tubs and that the way we kids there was nine of us taking bags With a candle on the stove.
Yeah, that's right. Well, did you have water in the house? Did you have that? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Cold water, but not hot. No, not hot. But you did have running water in the house. Oh, yeah, we had running water. So you can imagine, and when we bought this house, oh, everybody thought we were in heaven. You had a bathroom. Oh, we, what are you talking, we had two bathrooms, downstairs and upstairs. Oh. Oh, my, and we had three sleeping porches. Why, listen, we were the wealthiest people. And Dr. Well endowed. Listen, Dr. Friedman lived there, and he had to move. was when he first came here, he had to move because my father wanted the house for us.
And he offered to pay him any amount of rent, to rent him a couple of rooms, but we wouldn't do it. Which doctor Friedman was there? Remember, he was the general practitioner. In those days a doctor come anywhere to him. Now I remember Dr. Newman. Oh yeah, Newman. But this was another... Yeah, this was Friedman. His name was Friedman. Dr. Friedman. If I'm not mistaken, Dr. Friedman brought me, I was born at home, but I think he was attending doctor. Let me look on my first certificate. Dr. I wouldn't be surprised. I think there's a Dr. Friedman on it. So you say that he lived on Peabody, this Dr.
Friedman. Dr. Yeah, and he delivered all of our children at home. Mama, they never went to the hospital. Dr. Right. So how long was he in Dallas? What time? That was when we moved there in the 20s. And then I don't know what happened to him. I don't remember what happened to him. Dr. Friedman? Yes. Do you remember his first name? No. Was he married? Yes. He had a family? He had a wife, I don't know about children, but he had a wife. And he wanted, he lost two or three children at birth. And see, in those days, a doctor could not deliver his own child.
So he got permission somewhere to deliver the next one. And when my brother was born the youngest one he delivered him Nathan he was a boy and he came to my parents He says I give you any amount of money that you want Give me that baby He says, Mr. Levine, you got already eight. What difference if you have one less? He wanted him so bad, and he looked after him. He used to treat him and wouldn't charge him anything. He wanted him so bad because he wanted a child, and then when he got permission to deliver the baby, they did have a child. Oh.
Yeah. Something went wrong, and he lost two or three of them. I don't know. But he was able to have a child after he... After he delivered the baby himself. Oh, he was a devil. We used to fuss with him all the time. he wanted my brother so bad and he's the only one that made a doctor to him. And when he was going to school he used to call him to come up to his office because he wanted to see him. He took such a liking to him. I want to ask you why your, why do you think your father wanted you to go on to college?
Was that the usual thing? That's right. Everybody in his family from his side, they were all raised... That group, somehow or other, went to Brenham in Houston, and every one of them, lawyers or doctors... You're talking about your father's? My father, from that side. And he was a strong believer of education. But I knew we couldn't afford it. Because, well I'm wondering if the, your, say, friends of yours at that time period, if they went to college? Not for our immediate family. Girls or boys that you grew up with? Oh yeah, they were going. Okay. The Gans, you remember the Gans, Gertie Gans? She died young.
She was going to college. Ida, her sister Ida, I think she's a Golden Acres man. But her son is married to, some girl lives over here not far from you, but they all went to college. What college? Here in Dallas? Here in Dallas? Uh-huh. What college was there at that time period? You remember? Nobody had very many colleges. Dallas College. I know there was, but I can't... They would go to Baylor. The branch of Baylor. Okay, okay. And then they would take their internship at all at St. Paul's. But most of them went to Baylor. And then Baylor moved to Hueco. Yes, and St. Paul Hospital used to have a lot of Jewish children.
Yes. Well, okay, but if you had gone to college, what would you have studied? Do you know? What did your friends study? study, was it just... I don't know. Okay. See, not many of them, when a girl went to college, boy, she was a bit shocked. You remember, well, it was, you know the Tabalowski, Ruby Tabalowski and Etta Tabalowski, she went to college, we looked up to her like she was Celia Teachman, she went to college. She had a beautiful voice. She wanted to be an actress. She did a lot of training work in the community. Well tell me some of the other people that lived in the Highland Street neighborhood, the Jewish people that you remember, or you grew up with.
The Coins. Which Coins? This Jack? Jack Coins, yeah. His mother and father lived three doors from us, and the Schwifts was across the street. Okay. And, let me see. Now the Freedmans, they must have lived in the area. The Freedmans, yeah, lived down the street from us. On Highland also. Yeah, there was Bernie and the whole family. Yeah. And then the next street was the, uh, Ashland. What was the next after Highland? That was before my time. See, I forget she's a young girl. Well, thank you. Wait a minute, because the Tobolowskys lived there. Caroline. On Caroline's street? That's right, Caroline. Rubinette lived on Caroline.
Yeah, Rubinette's lived there. Rubinette and Tobolowsky? Tobolowsky, yes. Gary Rubinette. What about Richowski? They lived they were on the at the other end of the park it was Ashland and what was the other street Wichita Okay They were Wichita and on the corner of the school life you got active and everything didn you Yeah Along the lot of clubs Did you all go to Hebrew school Oh what are you talking Mr Levinson was my teacher The only time that my father with me was on account of Mr Levinson Now where was he the teacher? At the Teferith Israel. At Teferith Israel. Yes. Now you didn't have Mr.
Weinstein as a teacher. No, he was next door. He taught boys mostly. Mostly bar mitzvahs. For bar mitzvahs and stuff like that. And then Hebrew, but the girls went to the Teferith. Conferration class and all that. Yeah. Well now Teferith had a house. Yeah, it was a shul. Oh, right, but I mean it was a house. Yeah, a house, yeah. We used to go there. I had to go every day. Okay, and you had a, you say you went there, did they have a formal school, or was it that the girls would, would girls and boys come? Yeah, yeah. It was like a religious school.
A religious school, but we didn't go every day, we couldn't. When did you go? We'd go mostly on Sundays, but then we would go during the week maybe two or three times, because listen, we had chores to do at home. I knew my week was full. Monday I had a wash, Tuesday iron, everything was hand. Wednesday we cleaned house, Thursday I had to help my mother bake. I never went to a ball game or nothing during school. Now, I want to go back to Mr. Byers. He had a kosher butcher shop. Kosher butcher. And he got the meat. Yeah. We brought everything from him. Because I was asking about Passover, what you did in those days.
So you were able to get your meat. Yes, everything we got from him. Okay. And you... And they didn't sell matzah and stuff at the groceries those days. We had to get everything from him. From Mr. Byers. Yeah. You were able to get matzahs. Well we'd get everything from him. What else could you get for Passover? Could you buy matzo meal? Oh yeah. We'd get whatever the essentials. I mean in those days I don't know how much you were able to get Well the horseradish Oh yeah we had the horseradish You made your own Oh yeah But I interested in what you could buy at that time period Well now they didn have cookies and cakes and stuff like that Right.
The only thing they, once in a while they'd have, was the macaroons. But that was a luxury for us. We couldn't afford that. So we never got them. My mother used to bake whatever she could. Lots and lots of meal and crackers, only thing I remember. That's right. So you could buy, you could get your meat, and you could get the matzahs, and you could get, you said, farfel, and potato starch. Potato starch, and cake meal. Things like that, all the essentials. Just the basics. That's right, that's all we could get. And they did have macaroons, but not everyone could afford it. Could afford it.
And you're talking about in the 20s, or this was before the 20s. Maybe it wasn't before the 20s. When did you say you came to Dallas? I was six years old. Do you remember the year? You figured out yourself. Here. All right. I'll be 85 and older. You'll be 85? So it was... So it was... 1901. Yeah. About 1901 that I came here. So you're talking about actually maybe in the teens. Was it around the First World War? Oh yeah. I still remember the First World War. What do you remember? Do you remember people in the neighborhood having to go into the army? Oh yeah.
See my uncles went in. Your uncles had to go into the army? They all went into the army. All the neighbors around there were gone. Do you remember anything else about that time period? No, I can't remember too much because we didn't get to go anywhere. And I was a worker when I first came and I was doing it. Did you crochet for the service in broad? Oh, I used to embroider something. You all did a lot of knitting. That's right. But I didn't have time. The girls used to stay home. You said when you went to Foxville you were about 15 years old They didn ask your age when you came to work They didn ask me That was really funny She was a fish And it was so funny And I did I wasn if I didn have nothing to do with my part I went to help everybody else I even, you know how, do you ever see how they put the film together, splice it and everything?
Oh yes, uh-huh. Well, I went in back there. You helped do that? I helped do that and one day the manager you come looking for me. He said, what are you doing there? I said, well, I was caught up and they needed me. So I went, he said, you're not supposed to do it. I said, look, how am I going to learn if I don't do it? So I used to do it. I didn't care. He said, you get your hands dirty. I said, well, we can wash them. And you, you do get your hands dirty with the film. But I wasn't the lazy type.
I did everything. That's why they wanted me to stay. And what year did you get married? Twenty-eight. In 1928. How did you meet your future husband? Well, I knew him. What I used to do, when I'd come home from work, we'd get off at 430. So I'd come home from work. How did you come home? Streetcar. Streetcar. How much was it? A nickel. And I used to come home from the streetcar and we'd go, the office was right there by where the station is now, on Jefferson. The Union Station? Yeah, right where the Union Station is. The office was there, and we'd get the bus right there, and we'd ride around by, come through, yeah, around there, and then we'd get off right there at Forest Avenue, you know, Forest and Colonial.
Yeah. And the food stand was right there. So we used to- Your father's food stand? So we used to come, and when it was his busy time, from about 5 till 7. See, all the people coming home from work. So we used to, my sister and I both, used to go there and help. And in those days, a lot of men, you know, the women didn't have help, so the men used to come to do the shopping. Well, all the men used to come up to me and say, what are you doing working in a place like this? Several of them said, I can give you a job.
I said, I appreciate it, but I'm doing this to help my father out. I said, I don't work here all the time. And he thought that was wonderful. But they still kept asking me. But I used to help them every day. And then the thing about it, if I'd have a date, my sister wouldn't get a date on the same night as me because one of us had to work. And Saturday, we were off at noon, we got off. So Saturday, we'd go either do our marketing or shopping or anything, and one of us knew we had to come back to the store. They certainly wouldn't do it now.
All right, let me ask you how you said that your family was very religious. Yeah. But you had to work on Saturday, though. Oh, yes. Sadly, we couldn't help. That was a good day of business. We couldn't help. So there was no problem about... Oh, no, no. That was just a fact of... The holidays, we stayed home. Now I was off two days for holidays when I worked. They knew that. Passover, you stayed home? Yeah, we stayed for every holiday we observed. And was there any problem about that with your employees? No, they never said anything. See, because I think up in New York, the big shots were Jewish too, And they admired me for doing that.
Do you know if anyone, you say you yourself had no problem with that, any of your friends or your sisters? Some of the other companies. Well, what I did, when I got ready to get, when my sister, she didn't take a business course either. She took shorthand at school. And I wanted to get her a job. I always looked out for the family. So I asked the boss if he would hire her. Well, he had to get permission from New York to hire two of the same family. So the man happened to come down here, and he said, Well, knowing her, and if the sister will be anything like her, let's put her on.
So they did, and I put her on to work because I knew that eventually I would leave. So I used to help her. She was the assistant manager secretary Well she didn know nothing and I used to tell him if she makes a mistake don give it to her give it back to me And I had to work my fingers off until I fixed it And one day she saw me doing that. I said, well, you was busy, so I helped him. But anyway, I got her straightened out. So when I left, she took my job. But I worked pretty hard there. I didn't care.
Okay, so you said you helped when you got off work, you would help your father. Every day, sir. And his fruit stand was on the corner of Colonial? Of the forest and Colonial. And what was it called? Did it have a name? Did people? All we knew was a fruit stand. It didn't have a name. They didn't have a name. I don't know your maiden name. Levine. Levine. Okay. Okay, that's right. That's right. Excuse me. Louise Fruitstone. That's right. That's right. Now, you said your sister and you never went out on the same night. It wasn't because you borrowed each other's clothes like we did in my family?
Let me tell you what happened. You talk about clothes. That's what we did. On Saturday, we would go to town or sometimes we'd have a date. So I would put on my nicer thing Saturday if I was going out that day. So one day, I was going out. I had a date and she wasn't, so I'll never forget. I had a skirt and a blouse with suspenders on it. And so let me tell you, see, I wore that that morning and the manager was talking to me and then something come up and my sister wanted to go out. So I said, I'll tell you what, let's go in the restroom.
change clothes and I'll I'll make an excuse and I won't go because I didn't want to go out so we changed clothes and she come out and was working the boys went over and started talking to her and he looked at me did you have that dress on before and she was so embarrassed I said no we changed clothes because she's going somewhere but that's what we used to do See she couldn afford clothes I used to buy them I was already the worker And so I used to buy them and give them to her I did that all the time we worked We did that Yeah we changed clothes I was a young I used to have three so you can imagine what I got My mother sewed for both the boys and girls, dresses and shorts, and I used to make my daddy's shirts.
Did your mother sew? She did that kind of sew. We didn't even have a machine. I could really. Then when you were little, where'd you get clothes? When I was little, when my father was working at this flour mill, they gave him a machine one time, they were short of money. So I learned how to sew. And my brother, the youngest one, was, see, so you know what? Did you teach yourself? I taught myself. I wanted to make him some aprons. You know, in those days the kids wore pink and blue aprons. So I couldn't afford to have them. I stood him up by the wall and traced it.
You traced his pants. I don't know how he is. Priceless. Let me tell you, I traced it. So my mother said, look, don't make it that size. By the time you get it made, he won't be able to wear it. I said, yeah, but I want it to fit. And I made him an apron. He put it on. It looked beautiful. And I washed it. Because it grew up. Did you use flower sacks? No, we didn't have the flower sacks we needed for fish towels. Well, you bought just your material. You know about dyes, and Mama says the dyes used to run, and they used to have to put salt in the water and salt them down for one night.
Before you washed them, you had to put salt in it. Wait a minute, I don't know about this. How did you wash something new? By hand. No, I know, but you say to prevent it from fading. You put salt in the water first and soap. What? Just soap water? Yeah, yeah. And then you used vinegar. Yeah. What would the salt and vinegar be expected? To set the color. We bought dye to dye things. Yeah. Rit or whatever. Yeah, Rit. There was another one called Tintex later on. And we dived. I know one time everything in the house was fake. Because we didn't want to waste the dye.
Oh, yeah. I used to do that. and then know what the conscious said. My mother made some resumes. She used to take out this beautiful silk shirt when he had the men's clothing. Well couldn you buy material already with this That good Make those girls ruffle anquins to wear overdresses It was just you Sure She had gold in the hand She could go by Neiman and make my sister a dress She used to cut a pattern out of newspaper and cut it out. My sister would go to bed and that. Next morning about 7 o'clock, she'd break down. Can you dress? Can you dress? I still cut out of newspaper.
Well, I don't have a pattern now. So how did you meet your future husband? Well, his sisters used to come to the store, the fruit store, and they used to tell me that I have no business working there. So I said, look, I'm not ashamed. I said, it's honest, and if I can help my father. And they worried him to take me out. See, he had a men's clothing store downtown. It was on the corner of Irving by Neiman's and Commerce, right across from Neiman's. Oh, Irving and Commerce? He was with his brother-in-law. And who was his brother-in-law? Jaime Walensky. Jaime? Yeah, Walensky. Walensky. Ours was Walensky.
Mm-hmm. Okay. I thought he was an equal partner, but he wasn't. He wanted to be a big shot, so he would leave his money in. He'd just take a little amount and leave the money in to build an equity. And when I married, everybody thought I married a rich man because they had a big store. And then I never asked him because I didn't care. And I wanted to work, and he wouldn't let me. What was his first name? A. and he wouldn't let me and I was terribly, terribly disappointed and here I couldn't even boil water. So I told him when we got ready to get married, I said look, his mother had a two-story big house.
Nobody was there but them. I said look, instead of us renting an apartment, let's move, let's live with your mother for a year. I want to learn how to keep house. I want I learned how to cook, because she was fantastic, and so were his family. And here I couldn't even boil water, because my mother wouldn't let me in the kitchen. I'd mix up everything, because nobody cooked for her. We had a colored girl, but she never went in the kitchen. She was afraid she'd make everything dry. Didn't let any of her children help in the kitchen? You helped in other ways, but not in the kitchen.
Oh, yeah, for cleaning and everything, but not in the kitchen. And wallpapering, but not in the kitchen. Oh, yeah. I said she'd been a good interior decorator. I wallpapered and I even painted. And you sewed and you worked, but not in the kitchen. Well, I didn't sew long for my brother because he grew too bad. That was so funny. I'm surprised you didn't go into interior decorating. Being so addicted to the family. Well, I didn't have time. I couldn't go to school. So your husband had a clothing store with him. Yes, and then you know what I did? If he wouldn't let me work, I used to go down every day and stay there at noon when they went to lunch.
Because I tried to play cards. The whole family played cards. So I learned to play bridge. And I was playing pretty good. I can't sit for hours and I'd open my mouth and I'd talk. And you can't play bridge when you talk. Now when you got married you had to quit your job at Fox? Yes. I was miserable. I didn't know what to do. And so it wouldn't take me long we'd get the house straightened up. I'd watch her cook whenever she did anything. Alright, I'd go to town, I'd go here. Then they got me into playing bridge. I started playing bridge about twice a week.
Every time I sat down, I was losing two, three dollars. I said, I'm not feeding those women. I'm not going to do it. So I quit playing bridge and I went downtown because my brother-in-law used to leave the office. He was to go play. He used to play dominoes on the corner of the dominoes place. So he didn't care. Somebody want you? Yes, Rose, that's not a day. Wait a minute, you were on Deep Elm, 38 years. 2312 Elm Street. 2312 Elm Street. What kind of store was it? We had a pawn shop and a general, ready to wear. Who? Men's. And men's clothing. Mm-hmm.
And jewelry. They used to call us the Little Knitlin markers because it was so clean. Oh, really? That right And I was the porter I used to go to school with it Do you remember the year you opened on Elm Street Well go back from see here wait a minute What did you say, 35 years? Did you say 35? 38 years. 38 years. Now, he's been gone. We can figure it out ourselves. Here, he's been gone 13 years. Now what would that make it? This is 85, take off 13. Well, that's 62. That's not right. No, no, no, that's not right. 72. That would be, 13 years ago would be 72.
That's when he passed away in 72. But we were there 38 years. Until 72. Off of 72, 38. So you opened around 1934? That's right. That's about when it was. Now if you got married in 1928 and you said that he had a clothing store with his brother-in-law on Irving and Commerce, so he remained there? They weren't there very long after we married, maybe about four years, because the building burned, caught fire from next door. We had a barbecue, I mean, a hamburger place there and caught fire and then when that building burned I said no more cartons we're going ourselves. And then you went to Elm Street?
Then we went to Elm Street. Oh I see. That's where it was. Okay. Very good. What was the life like on Elm Street? It was a hell of a life. No days or nights. What do you mean no days or nights? Well, we opened at 7 in the morning, and most of them stayed until 12 at night. My goodness. But we didn't. We closed. That wasn't every day, was it? Yes. Sunday, too? Sunday, they were open half a day. Some were open all day. Is that right? Sunday, we were there half a day anyway. At least? Mm-hmm. So your life was at the store? That's right, at the store.
Was it a necessity to do this or because everyone else kept such a loan? Well you had to do it if you wanted to stay in business because you were in the loan business And if you weren there and they wanted a loan they went somewhere else And you couldn afford to lose your loans That's why we never went anywhere. We never had anybody that we could leave. Of course, that was during the Depression. Yeah. We had one Jewish fellow working for us. We thought he was it. He knew the business good and he helped us wonderfully. but he had hands that clipped, you know.
A clipper that you hear. Mm-hmm. And then he accused me of being the one taking the money. Mm-hmm. So we had to put a lock on our safe. Mm-hmm. And then he quit. Mm-hmm. Because you couldn't get no more money. Mm-hmm. Were you on a corner? Was this a corner, 23-12? No, it was right in the middle of the block. I'll tell you where it was first. On the corner was the Blue Cross and Blue Shield. And then next to that was a Model Tailor's. And next to Model Tailor's was a barbecue place. And then we were right next to that. What was the name of your store?
Abe's Phone Shop. 2312. I went into a tailor shop here in Preston's Royal and I walked in there and I hadn't seen this fellow in 40 years that runs that tailor shop but the reason I went in there I saw the name model tailors. Signed still? Yeah so I went in I said look you have the picture Yeah, I said, are you model tailors? You and me connected? And when I looked at him, he called me by my name. I said, how do you remember me? I haven't seen him in 40 years. Who were most of your customers when you had the pawn shop in the 30s?
Most of them. Who were they? Well, they were about half and half white and black. About half and half white and black. And we had some of the scum of the earth, the gamblers, but what do you call it, they were very nice to me. They all called me Mama. And that the only time I ever had words with my husband or with any of the you know we always had the police come to check things And when they hear those darkies called me Mama one of them he went to slap and I stepped in between them because I said look he doesn mean anything I know the man and I wouldn let him slap him He almost, I caught his hand and he would have slapped me.
And he says to me, don't ever do that again. I says, if you go to slap me, my customers are welcome. I says, it's not necessary. Because they were rough when they went out, but with me they were genuine. In fact, they used to bring in, you know, when they'd play cards or dice or anything, and they'd bring in a bunch of money, hold it like this. And they'd give it to me without even having it. Here, Mama, keep this for me until I come back. And I'd give them a sack. They'd put it in with no receipt or nothing. And they left it. Sometimes for weeks I'd have the money.
When they'd come back, I'd give them the thing just like it was. I didn't know what it was in it. And they told me I shouldn't do it. They trusted me. My daddy said they used to check hands. No, no contact, no bill, no nothing. Never did. Was most of the business the pawn shop part, or did you do a lot of selling? Oh yeah, we did a lot of selling, because we bought new merchandise, and then we would merchant, I said we would get in pawn, we would, you know, repair it if it needed. That's where I did my sewing too. If it needed buttons, rips, we'd have them cleaned when they'd come back from the cleaner.
I fixed everything. And if they needed to be, seams were unripped, everything was fixed perfect. That's why they called us the Little Neiman Marcus. I see. Did most of the people that would pawn things, would they come back and get it? Some would. It just depended. Just depended. Some would and some wouldn't. Did you raise a family? Yeah, two children. I had a maiden... How did you do that if you worked or did you stop working? The only time I stopped working was when I went to have the baby in the hospital. You know what I did? We didn't have a car and I used to raise a baby.
Bus and I had my suitcase packed ready to go to the hospital and I used to carry it with me because I didn't come down early in the morning, not when I was pregnant. And then when I had to do things at home, I would start my dinner and I didn't have it made, then we couldn't afford it. And so I would get everything started and then I'd go on to the store and I would take my lunch. And then when I was pregnant I would take my suitcase. I had one I kept at home and one at the store. So if I had to go from the store I went right then.
And so I used to take it and we didn't get a car until after my daughter was home. So you had to depend on streetcars? Oh yes. I used to depend on streetcars. And where did you live at this time? We lived on Holmes Street in an apartment. On Holmes? Right off of Irvey. Okay. It's in the heart of South Dallas now. Yeah. And we had it was a duplex and then there was two apartments upstairs and two downstairs and I had just a one apartment And then the woman that had charge of it she introduced me to the owner of the place one time and I knew this man So then he came in to see me and wanted to know if I would handle the apartment for him.
I said, well, if she moves, I will, but I don't want to take it from her. So sure enough, she moved and he gave me my rent free because I rented the others. And she used to have a lot of vacancies, but I didn't. I chose my tenants and I always got my rent. next door to me you know who lived was um oh shoot now his his sister is married to what's his name that plays the piano at the temple Lambert no not Lambert Gross Gross Marvin What's her name? Evelyn is her name? Evelyn? Uh huh. Wasn't she a Harris girl? She was a Abelins.
She was married to an Abelins boy. Yeah yeah But what was her parents Was it Harris No Anyway her brother was he was a doctor He studied medicine He was married to a gentile girl And the only time they would have furses is when, the end of the month, when the bills were due. And then she would call him a goddamn Jew. And I used to make me so mad I could just die. Rosenberg was his name. Rosenberg. Yeah. She was an Evelyn Rosenberg and then married the Abelmson boy. Now she's married to Groves. But the mother lived there and he used to live when he saw that I was a manager.
He had a fit but I didn't say nothing. I was very nice with him. And so I lived right there, and I used to, he used to give me five dollars a week to take care of the yard. Well, I needed the money, so I cut the grass myself. I got me a hand mower, and I used to cut the grass, or else sometimes I'd find a little colored ball, and I'd give him a couple dollars and he'd cut it. but the place was immaculate So you worked and raised a family And then I got a what do you call it I would leave home about 10 I had a girl come in every day and she would stay until I come back Because when I left, my baby was already bathed, and I had the formula, everything fixed.
All she had to do was stay till the baby, watch the baby. And I'd get home about 6 o'clock, because we stayed till 8. and then afterwards when I got pregnant with my second one then we needed a bigger place so we moved on Wendelkin and these people were it took them a year to build that house they didn't have the money so my husband went to them and says I'll advance you the money to finish the house if you'll rent it to me so that's what we did we paid the landlord the money to build the house, to finish it. And she says she didn't know I was pregnant because it was in the wintertime and I always wore a coat.
And she says, but I don't want anybody with babies. I said, oh, you see, my little girl, she was already two years old, and she didn't know what I was under the coat. So anyway, we moved in there.