Full Transcript
Ruth Weingarten, and today is January 1st, 1986, and I'm in the Los Angeles home of Fanny Pervorne, a Fanny Pervorne wiener. Hello. You don't have to do anything. We'll test it in a minute. This is a little microphone in here. Oh, that's very interesting. Yeah, I've never seen one of those. Okay. Well, Fanny, you were telling me you were working at the bank when you went to law school, or you were working with some other... Oh, I was... place. You were a secretary. I was a secretary and worked at the Mercantile National Bank and took a course in banking law for a year and found it so fascinating I decided I'd like to study law.
So I quit my job and got a secretarial position with a law firm, Caldwell Gillan Gallagher and something. I remember that. Wow. And so I worked for the law firm during the day and I attended the Jefferson School of Law. Where was that located? It was located in the downtown area. I don't remember the street whether it's Commerce, Maine or Elm Street. It was the downtown area and they had a fairly good attendance of students. Among them was a man named Walker who later became an executive in the Dallas Federal Savings in Law. I think his name was Thomas Walker. And so I attended law school for three years.
So you started in 1925 because you graduated? Yeah, in 28. I got my license in 28. So then I and another woman and possibly some of the other students, but she and I were together. We went down to Austin, Texas to take the bar examinations, and we took them at the federal building. And it took like five days, Monday through Friday, for all the examinations, and I passed. Yes, we have a list of your grades. Okay. State Supreme Court building Well I don know It was one of the state judicial buildings I don remember unless that list the examination shows where it was taken But it was not at a federal building.
It was in one of those state buildings, and I remember going up all those steps and walking up that building. And you went to school at night while you worked during the day. Yeah, I didn't say that. Every night you went to school? Well, I remember, what, it was four nights or five nights. And when did you do your homework? When did you study? Well, it was, let's, is it on? Uh-huh. Oh. Well, let's say it was very difficult. However, my experience as being a legal secretary was a great help. I see. And it familiarized me with different forms of action and different aspects of the law, and I took a lot of dictation because those firm members, one did outside trial work.
He was a little guy and had a big mouth on him, very effective. And the other one, Gilligan, I think he married a Jewish girl, a friend of mine later on. He did the inside research work. And Caldwell, who was the top echelon of the firm, he was a graduate of a big law school in the East, and he married a very wealthy and prominent socially woman in Dallas. and it was an entree for him to a lot of contacts and he was socially prominent. I must tell you that alongside, well, it's digressing from the subject of the study of law. No, go ahead. When they had the oil boom in West Texas, Caldwell was one of the first on the scene and if I remember correctly, he got himself elected mayor of the town.
And in that way, they got a lot of personal injury cases. As a matter of fact, they became so proficient, they became recognized as an authority in Dallas, and later on they either wrote a book or they were looked upon as an authority on personal injury cases. So, did you stay with that firm after you got your license? You said you won't... No after I got my law license I don know how soon thereafter I thought I try to get myself lined up someplace hoping that maybe I could practice law But the doors were closed to women I was a rarity in those days. There were two other women attorneys there, Sarah Hughes and Hortense Henenberg, that I knew about.
And I finally found an office where they allowed me to hang my hat, provided I would answer their telephones. and so I did that for like five or six months but I didn't have any really worthwhile connections to help me establish myself and I had to earn a living so after about six months I gave it up well before you hung your head in their office how did you try to get connected did you go see some law firms oh definitely you know it was many years ago but I did my best to try to make a connection. What did they say? Did they just turn you down flat?
Well, they turned you down flat. I don't remember what they said after all. It was many years ago. But having a woman in the legal profession was such a rarity that they treated it, rather than accept the fact, they treated it more like, I wouldn't say a joke, But they didn't take it seriously. So I decided right then and there that I would just have to give up the thought of practicing law and use the knowledge wherever I could later on. And so that was my short odyssey in Dallas trying to get established. Well, during those five or six months, did you have any clients at all, a few clients?
Yes, I did. And when I had worked for the bank, if I remember at that time, real estate was in full swing. And some of the people came there. I wrote up a few deeds and I wrote up a few wills. But that was about it, you know. And there wasn't much opportunity other than that. You said there weren't many other Jewish women professionals at the time either other than the women. In fact, there weren't many women professionals period. So far as I know after all that was in 28 this is 86 How many years ago was that 56 Almost more 56 years That right As well as I can remember the only two Jewish professional women that I knew at that time when I had met Hortense Henenberg, and she was very fortunate.
She had some kind of a connection because she was able to become appointed as assistant, one of the assistants on the state level. And, of course, Sarah Hughes, she couldn't get lined up, but her husband was an attorney and worked for the Veterans Bureau in Dallas, so she didn't have to worry about making a living because she had a husband to support her. But Sarah Hughes, of course, wasn't Jewish. I only knew Hortense Hentenberg. And you said one Jewish woman was a teacher. Now, I don't know if you meant Miriam Zesmer or her mother Jenny Zesmer. Jenny Zesmer was a school teacher. So far as I can remember, she was a school teacher before she married I.
Zesmer. And there was, you say, a woman dentist named Dr. Givens? No. From high school days, there was a woman named Ruby Daniels who became a dentist. And, by the way, there was one other one. Wait a minute. and of course there was this Oppenheimer woman who was a book reviewer she came later and I'm trying to think if there was anybody else and I can't think of anybody else at this time but I have a class book from high school and these women had written notes in it and what they aspired to do and I got little pictures of some of them in this book.
But you did go off to Philadelphia around this time. Yes, I went to Philadelphia and got employment as a legal secretary. When was that in, like, the early 30s? Well, I graduated in 28. I mean, I was licensed in 28. So, well, it had to be shortly thereafter, 29 or 30. I don't remember. Yeah, it must have been 29 or 30. And you worked as a legal secretary. I worked as a legal secretary, and jobs were at a premium. I see. But I never had any problems getting a job. However, I was turned down some of the large law firms where I aspired to be, Because they said I was overqualified, and as soon as I got something better, that I'd pick up and leave.
But luckily, I eventually did get lined up with a very fine Jewish law firm called Kraus and Leventhal at the Bankers Trust Building. and Leventhal later became a judge. And Krause, he was socially connected. He was a very wealthy young man and was socially connected to the wealthiest people in the city, particularly in the real estate business. And I must tell you that while I was working there, one weekend I went to New York to spend the weekend with a friend. I don't remember who that friend was now so long ago. But I came back in the morning and the Bankers Trust was located in the heart of the city near Broad Street and the Pennsylvania Railroad Station wasn far away so just a few blocks from where I work So that Monday morning I came into work with my weekend bank from this trip to New York and we were like on the 16th floor of this building but there was a large bank called the Banker's Trust on the first floor, and Krause of Krause and Leventhal had connections with that bank due to his family as well as the firm having all their funds upon this bank.
They were very large, and they had a lot of branches in the city. And as I approached the elevator, to my right, there was a sign on the bank door. And I walked over and read it and said the bank wouldn't be open that morning. And I couldn't figure that out. I thought maybe somebody had died or something. I asked the elevator man, and he shrugged his shoulders and looked very unhappy. He didn't know either. And when I walked back into the office, walked up to the office, there was Bedlam. The bank did an open. Wow. And the firm had all their money there. Oh, wow.
I remember that. So that was quite a lot more. Quite an experience. Thank you.
