Henri L. Bromberg Jr.
Henri L. Bromberg Jr. was born in Dallas on January 15, 1911, the son of a father born in a small East Texas town in Wood County who came to Dallas after graduating from the University of Texas law school, and a mother born in Paris, Texas, who came to Dallas as an infant. His family's Texas roots ran deep, with a great-grandfather who fought for Texas in the Civil War. His ancestors emigrated from Germany in the mid-19th century, drawn by economic difficulties and evidence of anti-Semitism there. His maternal grandfather, Sam Fechenbach, ran a retail store in Dallas, and his paternal grandfather came to America as a young man and made his way to Marshall, Texas.
Bromberg grew up in South Dallas, first in what he was told was the first apartment house in the city near Hughes (later Sullivan) Circle, later on Ackard Street, and then in a home his father built on South Boulevard. He attended a private kindergarten, the Royal Street School, the John Henry Brown School, Forest Avenue High School, and the Terrell School, before earning a B.A. from the University of Texas in 1932 and a law degree from Northwestern University in 1935. He married in 1936, served in the Army Air Forces from 1942 to 1946 as a non-flying officer, reaching the rank of lieutenant colonel, and returned to Dallas where he settled into a long and satisfying career in business law with his father's firm.
A member of Temple Emanu-El from childhood, Bromberg was confirmed by Dr. Lefkowitz and served as the congregation's president in 1969, following his father who had held the office decades earlier. Though he described himself as a secular Jew, he was deeply involved in community life, serving as president of the Jewish Welfare Federation, chairman of the American Jewish Committee's local chapter, and a leader with the National Conference of Christians and Jews, the West Dallas Social Center, the Dallas Council of Social Agencies, the Columbian Club, and the Community Action program. As a young man he worked as a cash boy at Neiman Marcus at Christmas alongside the Marcus boys, who lived across the street. A thoughtful observer of assimilation and Jewish identity, he believed strongly in the Jewish community's integration into the broader community while retaining its distinctiveness.
Full Transcript
This is Ginger Jacobs, and we are talking with Mr. Henry Bromberg, and in his office in Dallas, Texas. All right, your name please, sir. I am Henry L. Bromberg, Jr. And were you born in Dallas? Yes, I was. And what year were you born? January the 15th, 1911. How many generations does your family go back in Dallas? In Dallas? Mm-hmm. Well, my father was born in a small East Texas town, Menehola, in Wood County, and came to Dallas when we graduated from the University of Texas Law School in 1911. My mother was born in Paris, Texas, and came to Dallas while still an infant. And what was the earliest of the generations that came to the United States?
Well, my great-grandfather, the father of my paternal grandmother, fought in the Civil War from Texas so it was sometime prior to 1860 but I don't know the exact year and do you know how they happen to come to Texas well they came from Germany and there was considerable unrest in Germany in the middle of the 19th century there was some evidence anti-semitism and there were economic difficulties in Germany at that time and I assume that it was that that was the motivation for them coming to Germany to the United States Um, do you know how they got to Texas? No, I really don't know. I don know whether they came through Galveston which many of the Jewish immigrants at that time did or whether they come through New York My paternal grandfather however grew up in Germany, came to America as a very young man, probably still on his teens.
I had some relatives in New York, was not happy there, and came to Texas, went to Marshall, Texas, which was then the end of the line, and started out from there. When your earliest remembrances, where did you go to school here in Alice, and where did you live? Well, my earliest recollection, I lived in what I had been told was the first apartment house in Dallas. It was on a street then called Hughes Circle, now called Sullivan Circle, which runs from Irvey Street, opposite the Old City Park, now a historical district, across about three or four blocks to Akers Street. Up until what years, how old were you when you moved from there?
I was probably about eight or nine. We moved into a house that my grandfather, that my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, owned on Ackerd Street at the head of Hugh Circle. My grandmother and one of her daughters and her family had lived in that house until that time, and they moved because the wife of my of my maternal uncle passed away in the flu epidemic in the early 1920s and my grandmother and the people who lived in that part of my family who lived with her moved into that uncle home in order to look after his daughter Did you have an extended family when you lived in that home, or was it an immediate family?
It was only an immediate family. It was my mother and father and my brother. Where was the house after Sullivan, the address? I'm not sure. I think it was in the 1500 block of South Ackerd Street. I know it was on Ackerd Street. I'm just not certain of the number. What kind of house was it? It was a very elegant, old, two-story house. Was the general neighborhood with the... At that time it was still a first-class residential neighborhood. About what years did you live there? About how many years from when to when? About two or three years. We moved in January of 1911 to a new home that my father built on South Boulevard.
Do you remember the address? About where? 2621 South Boulder. And then how long did you live there? I lived there until I went into service in 1942. Having meanwhile married and my wife and I lived with my parents for the first six years of my marriage. And then after? Oh, now you were in the service. Where did you serve? I never left the United States. I, uh, um, I had the good fortune to get a direct commission in April of 42 in the Air Force, and I was stationed in Fresno, California as a non-flying officer. I started as a second lieutenant. I was in Fresno for quite a time and then went to an airfield in Nevada and then went to Chicago where I was in charge of the headquarters that was terminating Air Force contracts I came out and well I ceased active duty in in April of 46 and was discharged.
Well, my terminal leave expired in, I guess, August of 46 with the rank of lieutenant colonel. And then you came back to Dallas? I came back to Dallas. And where did you live then, in 46? Well, we lived in an apartment on Loma Alto for a time, and then another apartment on Fairway, and then we bought the... in February of 1951, we bought the home that we now live in at 4842 Brookview Drive. Um, and so you've lived in your home since 1946? I've lived in my present home since 1951. We lived with my parents until 1946. Then I went, we lived with my parents until 1942.
Then I was in the Army to 46. We lived in apartments from 46 to 51. I'm sorry. Tell us about your school, the schools you went to. Well, I went to kindergarten to a delightful woman named Nora Wormther. She taught in the Dallas Independent School, Dallas Independent Public School, and in the afternoon she conducted classes for three or four of us. Now, I did that for a couple of years. One of the students there was Now, Hortense Sanger, who you may want to talk to at some stage of the game. After that, I went to the Royal Street School, which was on South Akkad, only a few blocks from downtown, and not too many blocks from where we were living at that time.
After that, I went to the John Henry Brown School on Park Row in South Dallas. Graduated from there, went to the then-called Forest Avenue High School for two years. After that, I went to a preparatory school in Dallas called the Terrell School. Graduating in June of 1928, I then attended the University of Texas for four years, graduating was a B.A. in 1932. I then went to law school at Northwestern University, taking a J.D. in June of 1935. Can you possibly be interested in all this? yes i really am uh how about your jewish education what how about the jewish education were you affiliated with this congregation or what is the congregation where your parents affiliated with uh i started attending sunday school at temple emmanuel almost from the beginning uh my my father was con was president of the congregation somewhere along in there.
And I think for this because I became president of the Temple Manual in 1969 And I pretty sure that my father had begun his tenure as president exactly 30 years before that So I think that that date is about right. And my mother became president of the Temple Sisterhood a little year or two after Dad was president of the congregation. What was the religious training like at Temple at that time? Well, I'm not sure that that's a fair question. I was not greatly interested in Jewish education. I was, however, confirmed by Dr. Lefkowitz, and as all of us did, I thought he was a wonderful person.
What about your school days at the Royal Street School and then at Brown School? was it like going to school at that time? Well, there was evident anti-Semitism of the childhood sort, frequent references to Jew baby and the like, and some not too serious physical difficulties. Did you get it just from the students, or how about the teachers? I was never aware of any adverse feeling. What about high school, the high school days? Well, there was still some evidence of anti-Semitism from students, but again, none from teachers. forest in those days the Jewish student body came from an upper-class group whereas most of the rest is not not all but the most of the rest of the students came from a less privileged economic group You think it was jealousy as far as economics Or what do you think some of it was based on or could you Did you have any impression about it at the time I did not then have the feeling that the evidences of anti-Semitism, which were not severe, were motivated by jealousy of a more privileged economic position.
I probably didn't spend a lot of time trying to analyze it. What about Hebrew? Was it taught at Temple, was that found? Yes, and I thought of it a sultry way. Was there any Hebrew in the service at that time that you remember? In the military service? No, in the... Oh, in the religious service. Religious service. Oh, yes, there was. There was? Yeah. As a matter of fact, my recollection is that the prayer book that was used at services was the same that it's still being used except on an experimental basis at the temple. I don't believe there's been a change. There may have been a revision in there somewhere, but that was not basic, and yes, there was a substantial amount.
within these confines the portions that appear in the prayer book and the reading from the tarp were you bar mitzvah no were many of the did they have bar mitzvah at that would you happen to know the time frame about what period of years that they did not have bar mitzvah the temple? They did not have it at all within my knowledge until fairly recently. There was none until it was begun here Now that was begun by Levi Olin and Levi came to the congregation He was only recently here when I got out of service in 1946 I guess he came in 1945 before. And I think he conducted the first of the bar mitzvah services, and I don't think he did right away.
And I think that it was not an organized thing as it now is. it was only an occasional thing that anybody... I must say that you can't rely too much on what I've just said to you, because I have no very clear recollection of when it began. What were the holidays, or did you observe Passover at all? No. Was there observance of any of the Jewish holidays? Was there any observance of any of the Jewish holidays at home? Now, you... In your home. I think your preceding question was speaking of the present, and I think now you're speaking of when I was growing up. I'm sorry.
Correct. I am sorry. In our home, the only religious holidays that I can remember was the recognition of Hanukkah, and that only in the terms that we let lit the Hanukkah candle. Now, my parents went regularly to Friday night services, and to the base, to the more important holidays. My father always fasted. I'd fasted on Yunkapur too when I was growing up, but no services on Friday night at home. Never a Passover service. As a matter of fact, I remember the first Passover service I ever attended. Well, that's not right. I went to some Passover services at the temple when I was young, but the first one that I went to as an adult, I was working on a transaction in Atlanta, Georgia.
And my wife and I was another couple who were the man whom I was representing. This was a transaction with one of the major banks over there, and they arranged for us to have tickets to the Masters Golf Tournament on one occasion. And one of their directors was Jewish, and it happened to be Passover, and they arranged for us to have Passover at his home. And we enjoyed it, but it was the first Passover I'd ever attended, other than as a child. Go ahead, I'm sorry. I think I belong in the group that has come to be referred to as a secular Jew. What about any of the other, did you later have services?
Or did, what about the transition of that? From the time that you decided to be, you know, or did you always feel it yourself? as a secular Jew consciously when did you decide that's how you felt well there has never been a time that i didn't feel that i had a commitment to Judaism and particularly to temple manual on the other hand i've never been religious i can never remember a time that religion was important part of my life um you mentioned on yom kippur doubt was there any observance of rosh hashana of new years yeah in that we went to temple period what about uh were you confirmed from temple oh yeah you said you were all right what about the shavuot service when on confirmation or was there service when you were confirmed?
There was, yes. And was there mention of the holiday Now I was not aware that Confirmation was on a holiday Okay. That was some years ago. Maybe I knew about it at the time. Now, I'm making an assumption, and I must tell you that when I was growing up, we remember that the temple confirmation always was on shavuot it may not have been i frankly don't know yeah okay um was did you ever have or was there any other affiliation with any other second or another religious institution as well as temple emmanuel no um how has your observances or have they changed in recent years or has there been any change in your own personal observance only to this extent during the time that i was president of emmanuel and for some years thereafter i was much more regular in attendance at temple But other than that, there's been no change.
What about organizations when you were growing up, social organizations? Well, I was growing up. When I went to the University of Texas, I belonged to a Jewish fraternity. My father always belonged to the Columbia Club, and when I got out of law school, I joined the club. My father also belonged to Lakewood, however. Where was the Columbian Club when you were in South Dallas? the beginning it was on Irby Street and that continued until there was a fire in the old Columbian Club building on Irby Street and that when the club moved to the Garland Road and interestingly enough since Jews were welcomed at Lakewood at the Lakewood Country Club and being anxious to perpetuate that and not create a competitive situation The leadership of the Colombian Club at that time elected not to acquire land floor and to construct a golf course, so that the Colombian Club on Garland Road did not have a golf course, and for that reason.
When did the Colombian Club move to its present location? Wait a minute. I don't think I can be more specific than the early 50s. Okay. Okay. And? Okay. I was a director from 1946 to 59 and president in 1949. And it... The club was still out on the Garland Road when I was president. And, um... Not for too long after. Were most of the Colombian club members also a member of Lakewood at the time when they were on the Garland Road? I wouldn't think so. But at that time, the membership of the Temple and the membership of the Columbia Club was almost identical. What was, do you remember, or what was your impression, what do you remember of the when it was on Irby Street, when you were a little bit of that?
Oh, gotcha. Well, let me see. We used to occasionally have Sunday night supper at the club particularly in the summer And it was very gay and pleasant I know it was my first introduction to club sandwiches. They had two bowling alleys in the basement. That's when I was a little older, but still living in South Dallas, I've used on infrequent occasions. I remember that they had a pool table there. There was a little boy I thought was fun to play on. I think somewhat to the consternation of older memory. They had a number of poker rooms, and I understood that there was a very large poker game there every Saturday afternoon.
Hmm. There were weddings there occasionally, and I can remember once being in a play about the Maccabees that was conducted by the Sunday School, but was held in the Colombian club because their ballroom had a stage. There's one other thing that I'd like to tell you, but I wouldn't like to put on this record. Well? it would have been about that time what was your mother's maiden name fetching back f-e-c-h-e-n-b-a-c-h well do you did you remember or do you remember your parents telling you about what the debut is like no however i have seen Newspaper clippings in which her debut was reported, and I think that that was with it.
This doesn't sound too likely, but I think when the old Columbian Club, that is the one on Garland Road, was sold, that they took out of the cornerstone a box that had some memorabilia. Memorabilia. Memorabilia. And I think that that's where the clipping that I saw was. There were some interesting clippings and other things in that, and I think that's where I saw that. Interesting. you know we turned over to the archives at the temples some old family materials I've forgotten that it it was for a significant anniversary perhaps the hundredth anniversary of the temple that things of that sort were collected and I know had some things that somebody felt were working.
Yeah. What were, were there any other organizations, did Temple have a youth group when you were growing up? I don't think so. They had a basketball team. Okay, tell us about the basketball team. the old temple had a large room in the basement and they had a basketball court there and we used those of us who belong to the temple and were of about the same age used to play basketball there and then we played in a league that was sponsored by the YMCA. Now let me think. Well this was probably I imagine that this went on from generation to generation but my own involvement was probably in the period of around 1924 to 26 I'm trying to think of people who played with it at that time.
The only name I can think of was a gentleman now deceased named Abe Goldstein. I know there were others, but I can't remember who. The YMHA was...oh, go ahead. YMHA was functioning at that time. Was it functioning that early? Did you play any tournaments there? Did you play any tournaments? I expect that we did, but I have no recollection of it, and indeed have no recollection of the YMHA until somewhat later than that, though I probably have it confused. I remember, or let me say the first building that they had that I remember was on the north side of the old city park. did you ever go to any of the parties there no okay nor did i ever go to any of the parties at the temple okay did the temple kids did was there much participation from temple do you know if there was much participation from temple in the ymha activities i do not know but i'm inclined to think that there was not what about the some of the other groups that you belong to in those years were you involved with any other group activity well i had a short involvement with a boy scout troop that was started at the temple a lady named Edna Rowe who was an English teacher at Forest High had a group that met after school that I was involved in I remember Mrs.
Rowe very well, but I don't seem to remember much about that organization that she had. I'm thinking of it as a debate group, but I'm not sure that's right. What about after the Army when you got out of school, or when you were at school? What involvement in school as far as organizations? Well, I've earlier mentioned that I belonged to a Jewish fraternity when I was on the campus in Austin. I don't think of anything else in those years. You mentioned the Carroll School. What was that like? It was the equivalent of St. Martin, a day school. Were there many Jewish students there? There were a fair number.
Where was the school? it was at peak and Swiss about what size about what what size well I would guess it was probably about two or three hundred people. I know or I am reasonably certain that there were 28 in my senior class Was it co No not often Was, um, Hockaday also functioning at that time? It was. Okay. And both of these schools were very highly regarded, that is, Hockaday and Daryl at that time. uh would you happen to know if there was much of a jewish population in hockaday as well well i i think there were a good many jewish students there now were most of these temple kids did you know them from temple or were they from sheriff and temple or you know as far as the population was concerned I'm inclined to think that most of them came from Temple, but I don't know that that is so.
What about other organizations you've been a member of as an adult? Tell us about the American Jewish Committee. When you were, where did it start? Well, you were the director, I see, that's in 1951. How did that, when did it organize here? Were you a member or when did you join? I think that the local chapter of the American Jewish Committee was organized while I was still in service. Alex Weisberg, a prominent Jewish lawyer, was the first chapter chairman and one of the moving spirits in this organization. He was followed as chairman by Sam Bloom, and I'm reasonably sure that it was Sam Bloom who asked me to become involved in the committee, and subsequently to become its chairman.
Now, wait a minute. It may well be that Henry Miller, Henry Miller Sr. was involved as a chairman somewhere before I became involved, I'm not sure. It goes back a long way and I think maybe Henry Miller Jr. was also a chairman. It may be that I, that he immediately preceded me, I'm not sure. You should have come in ten years ago when my recollection was done. I wish I had. You're doing fine. What were some of the activities you did? What were some of the issues that you were dealing with at that time? I'm really afraid to hazard a guess. I just don't remember it.
It's too far back. How about some of the other activities that you were involved in, such as the federation, Jewish community, the Jewish Welfare Federation of Dallas? Well, when I was, when I was president of the federation, the chairman of the federation, involved in the federation, the burning issue, of course, was first the creation of Israel, than the degree of support of Israel. Of course, always, funding was always a problem. Whether to create the Jewish Community Center, there was a great debate over that and over the nature of it, and there was a compromise that was worked out to try to, and this while I was present, to try to accommodate the divergent views with respect to that, and the compromise was that it was not to be a solely Jewish facility, but to undertake to serve the whole community in that area and that was sincerely adhered to by everybody for about a week what were the um what was the reasoning of the different uh factions if you of view well I think probably a feeling on many people's part that it was not desirable to foster an institution that was self-segregating Why did they feel...
why? Why was the issue of self-segregation a major issue? Well, I suppose because of the feeling that the nation was moving towards greater assimilation and that this was desirable and that why build our own ghettos I guess. And the opposition what was their... Grew up in a different tradition and had serious questions as to whether there was such a thing as assimilation and that there were certain aspects that they deemed desirable that could only be carried out if it was strictly a Jewish organization Jewish education whatever what about whether the facility was to be open on Saturday or not Were there other issues? No, those are the ones that occur to me at the moment, always the issue of money.
How did they resolve the issue of money? Well, I've always felt that Jack Kravitz was probably the best money raiser that I have ever known. And they resolved the question by a really hard work and good organization and an emotional appeal for the support of Israel You probably know more about that than I do. When you get it from someone who was involved, you know, and was there, it's meaningful. it has a little more depth as far as the individual is concerned so that's important Jewish Defense Appeal National Council let me say that when you get involved in Jewish communal communal work there's no end to where it's going to go.
I don't think that I ever did anything except have my name on a letter headed. Tell us about the Community Action Committee. Well, That was, as you know, a part of Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty. I was considerably involved in that for a time. I was on the founding board of directors here, and continued for quite a while, as I recall. we were faced... well, let me start over on that. At the outset, there was a substantial proportion of the total board made up of people who constituted the leadership of the community but there were also a great many people from the groups that it was hoped would be served unhappily that did not continue throughout the life of the group there was a very determined effort by the minority groups and particularly the black group to take over control of that organization which they ultimately did and unfortunately a part a major part of the black group that came ultimately to control the thing were not really committed people they they they were seeking personal and financial aggrandizement and what might have been a fine opportunity for constructive social work was really lost the issues I suppose at that time housing was one of the principal job improvement, education, those were the things that we were struggling with.
Did you see, or what were some of the changes that you saw while you were serving on the... Not much. Okay. What about the symphony? You've done a lot of public service. The symphony and the-I'll do one at a time. Tell us about the symphony. I really have done very little for the symphony. I have not been a part of the group that was really involved in the decision-making process for the symphony. I go to the board meetings Not too regularly because of that time. Don't like the hour at which they meet, which is 7.30 for breakfast. I hate early morning meetings. Um... Of course, the interesting issue in connection with the symphony The years that I've been involved in it is construction of the new Symphony Hall and I believe that that is now on its way but the Symphony is going to be faced with serious financial problems even if costs for the Symphony are kept under control it's inevitable that they're going to have to be very determined additional fundraising efforts What about National Conference of Christians and Jews?
You've been quite active on that. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about its background and what's happened? Well, of course you know, and I make sure you know, that the National Conference was created in the very early 30s, following Al Smith's defeat in his presidential, in his bid for presidential election, and primarily because he was a Catholic. And some worthwhile people felt that that was an intolerable situation, and they organized the National Conference for the specific purpose of trying to combat anti-Jewish and anti-Catholic prejudice. The Dallas Chapter was organized in the early 40s, as I recall. My father was one of the organizers of the Dallas Chapter, and a man named Everett Clinchy with the national director and I can remember having dinner with him in my father's home shortly after I got out of service which was 46 so that's the basis upon which I'm guessing that the Dallas chapter was formed in the early 40s Dallas came to have a very splendid man located here but regional director a man named Hastings Harrison Hastings was a great spirit and he did a fine job in the efforts to alleviate the prejudice in this area Particularly I thought that there was a man who was a professor of English at SMU.
I think his name was Beatty, and and Hastings had a relationship with the then Chancellor of SMU this is ridiculous Willis Tate and was responsible I think for causing Dr. Tate to tell Dr. Beattie he had to stop or leave which was done that was that was really a very dangerous situation because Beatty had the support of Carr Collins and some other influential people who were lending support to him and the American Jewish Committee loved that one terribly they sent down a man who started advising us and who just didn't understand the community or really anything else, I thought. You got to do your homework.
The Ku Klux Klan was here in the... In the early twenties. Yeah. and then it was a very serious situation too they were electing judges and doing all kinds of things and it was about 20 or 22 along in there somewhere do you have some recollection of what some of what was happening and what was happening the Jewish community to combat it no no independent recollection What are some of the other areas that you been involved in well that you had you know a lot of meaning for you You done a lot of community services Well, you know, one of the things that I enjoyed most was being president of the West Dallas Social Center.
Okay. For a very specific reason. There, we were dealing directly with the people that we were trying to help. Mm-hmm. Most of the community work I've done has been set on boards that were at least once removed and sometimes more than once removed from the beneficiaries of the effort. How was that run? I mean, did they have representation from the group that lived there as well? No, I don't believe that they did. Well, I'm pretty sure they did not. I think the board of that organization was made up of sympathetic people, really, who were in a position to give some time and have everything to do.
What were some of the changes you saw as a result of your efforts? What were some of the actual changes that you saw? And what about the time frame, the years? For West Dallas Social? Yeah, for West Dallas. Really very little change. It was simply a matter of providing recreation for the people of the area. You were talking about the West Dallas Social thing? Yes, I think I had said it. The function of the West Owl Social Center was largely to provide recreational facilities and direction for people who lived in the community. They had a good man, a man named Quentin Barrow, who was a director at the time that I was active, and he organized playgroups, picnics, and things of that sort, and the board actually became involved in a fair amount of that.
It was clearly not an intellectual undertaking There was no effort made to face social problems Never thought of it this way before, but perhaps that's why I enjoyed it so. Well, you know, this is a small example, but there was always a pre-Christmas party, and the members of the board helped in preparing food and passing it out to the children who came and i remember my taking my son out on one of those occasions when he was very young and it was a wonderful experience for him i'm sure it was the first time he ever did anything for anybody but himself what was his reaction you know afterwards oh he he was carried away with it It was great.
What about some of the other activities that you've had over the years with the community itself? Well, I would say that I'd had a large involvement with what was then called the Dallas Council of Social Agency, except I'm afraid she'd ask me to remember some of what we did work with. thought it was an important organization and had some impatience with it because I thought that it was doing a very fine job of determining desirable social activity in the community and doing absolutely nothing to accomplish the conclusions that it had reached but still I thought it was very worthwhile let me see what I can remember that I remember chairing the committee to to consider the whether or not to accept a very large contribution to create a boys Club in West Dallas and it was clear that A boys club was really not what was most needed out there because there were, there was the West Dallas Social Center and many other organizations that were doing similar work, but after investigation it became very clear that the people who were prepared to commit that money were not prepared to commit for any other purpose.
And so the council associate social agencies worked on for the council social agencies with the determination of whether the community needed more hospital beds. And our conclusion was that at that time they clearly did not, that what we needed were more nurses and more technicians. Mm-hmm. Now... Did they hire the technicians on the... were they flexible enough? Well, they postponed a proposed capital fund drive for an addition to one of the hospitals, not that much one it was. And maybe a similar survey should have been made before the addition to Baylor was done. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, um... I'll... Let's go back to your... You know, you keep asking me about things I have long forgotten about.
Well, I think, you know, if you think about them, you kind of remember some of the things that were important to you, and some of the things you felt that you participated in, what your life was like when you were growing up. What would your life frankly mean? What do you think you remember about growing up in... The things that you remember when you were very young, growing up like on Akron Street or in Sullivan Circle, what was it like then? What was the surrounding area like? Well I think of that as a very happy period in my life I did not have a sibling until I was seven years old.
My parents were both very gentle folks. Now, I remember that on a Saturday, my father was home for lunch, which was not common, and We were going somewhere, and I swallowed a chicken bone. And apparently there was a pretty good chance I was going to strangle to death on it. And I can remember their dreadful concern. But ultimately I split it up and survived, as you can see. I do remember that in that period, being taken to, on a Saturday afternoon, to a vaudeville show in the predecessor to the Majestic Theater. I'm getting awfully restless. And I can remember when the New Majestic was opened.
Though I was sufficiently old that I was not interested in the playroom in the basement, there was one. I can remember when the old jail opened, being taken there by my parents one year. I can remember when the old Republic Bank building was new and then just opened. I can remember very well when the Magnolia building was constructed My father firm had been officed prior to that time in a building further west It was on Main and Poitry Street. I don't know that I ever knew the name of the building, certainly I don't remember it. And they moved into the Magnolia Building when it opened.
With a boy named Lawrence Miller Jr., Bud Miller, I used to go to downtown on Saturday, often to have lunch with my father or his father, and then go to a movie on Saturday afternoon, and occasionally go to Cullman Barn afterwards and see all the sports equipment, and then take a streetcar home. I remember having lunch with my father and occasionally with my uncle, Louis Brownburg, who was the president of the Enchanted Company, at a seafood restaurant that was close to my uncle's store in my father's office called Vincent's. A wonderful place. Uh... Did you ever have a job when you were growing up? Uh-huh.
Yeah. Herbert Marcus and his family lived across the street from us when we lived on South Boulevard. And there were four Marcus boys. Stanley was the eldest and considerably older. Well let me see I said considerably older I guess he six years older than I Eddie was next and he was a little older than I and Herbert Jr who was a little younger And then Larry was the youngest. Eddie and Larry, no, Stanley and Larry are the only ones who survived. I mention this because at Christmas, Herbert Jr. and I and Bud Miller, who was a cousin of the Marcus's and who lived at the opposite end of the block that we lived in, worked at Neiman Marcus every Christmas for three or four years.
that's what we're then called cash boys. And I remember very pleasantly that Al Neelan, who was then the chief executive officer of Neelan Markets, took all of us to lunch. Not every day. What was it like? The working. Oh, it was very exciting. I enjoyed it very much, and after that ended, when I was a little older than when I was, I guess, a junior in high school or maybe a senior, I worked at Tide-Skettinger in a not dissimilar job, but somewhat more responsible. I think the function of a cash boy, at least at Neiman's, the sales girl during that busy period would call one of these boys to pick up the ticket and the cash and the merchandise and take them to a cashier to be the money to be recorded, and for the package to be wrapped, and then to return it to the saleswoman to give to the customers so that during that period the saleswoman was free to work on another customer.
Not a very responsible position. After I got over to Tite's Gendier, I remember doing some nature of a recording of figures, and something was so different. Were they very much like each other, the stores? Were they, were the procedure and the clientele, how did they compare? Well, Neiman's was always a little fancier, fancier merchandise and maybe a little classier clientele. Were the operations comparable? I guess so. I was in my early teens at that time. I really didn't get deeply involved in the connections. It's the baddest one. I remember there was one store downtown as a child that had the little baskets and it'd go down the wires.
Is that the way it was? It was at Teich's and I don't think it was at Neenah. And it was at Sanger's at that period too. Sure I remember that. And they also had these pneumatic cubes. They did. Was there a personal feeling? Did Mr. Titech and Mr. Gettinger, did they greet customers? Were they in their offices? What about the general feeling of that store? Well, Mr. Guttinger was dead, and Mr. Tite did greet people. And, of course, the Marcuses always did. They made a tremendous point of that. And Herbert Marcus's father sat in a chair at the Main Street entrance to the store and greeted everybody as they came in.
And Saul Dreyfuss did much the same thing for Dreyfuss' son. Saul Dreyfuss recognized everybody in Dallas, and he didn't remember all the names, so he greeted people with high partner. What about the sales personnel at that time How did they deal with the customer when they came in Was it much like it is today? Was it... I really have no recollection. You don't have any impression, or do you have any impressions of it? No, I do not. How it is when you go now and shop as opposed to those things? I noted the way you rephrased your question, but it's quite all right to lead this witness if you want to.
What about the neighborhooding, your own impressions? In South Allen? Well, it was really a very, very comfortable way to grow up. There were three or four blocks there where there were a large group of children about my own age, and the parents of those children were all the friends of my parents, and it was a very happy arrangement. What about recreation? Well, initially, for me at least, it was largely sports. Every afternoon we played whatever the seasonal sport was. A little later, in the high school years, I had little boy and girl parties and some dances. There was a card game. Mahjong became very popular at that time, and all of us played Mahjong for a while, and there was a card game that was popular.
I'm not sure that I remember what. I didn start playing bridge until I went to college and practically paid my way through college I played bridge and haven played in something like 40 years I guess Now, did you play mahjong in high, when you were in high school days, in the 20s? Sure did. Okay. And never after that, so it had to be in high school then. In the evenings and the afternoons? Mixed? No, I think mainly in the evenings, Friday evening. Well, maybe I should have been at Temple. With contemporaries or parents? Contemporaries. Only. Only. Okay. Okay. What about some of the other recreational activities?
What about sports? What about sports? A lot of it. Every afternoon when I got out of school, I played whatever the seasonal sport was, football in the fall, and then we went into baseball and then basketball, occasionally basketball at night. So my parents did not approve of my doing anything at night except study. Was it organized? Did you just play in the neighborhood? Oh, no, in the neighborhood. Everybody played? That's right. In our block, there were two adjoining lots which had not been built on, and that's where we played every day. What about college days? Sports? Mm-hmm. Well, of course, there were athletics there, and I learned to play bridge in college, and a lot of girls, a lot of time spent with girls.
I have all my life read a good deal much less now than I used to but in the college days I read a great deal What about, you were talking about the school of dangers, what were they like? Were they pro-working? Well, they used to have something they called the German song. Why, I never know. But in the gymnasium, the gymnasium floor was open for dancing, and anybody who wanted to could go, and we used to go and take girls we knew. Generally, not always, but generally two or three couples or so. You're talking about reading. A good deal of anti-Semitism on the campus at the University of Texas in the United States.
There was, I guess, three Jewish fraternities, and one Jewish sorority, and, of course, a host of Gentile fraternities and sororities, and the Gentile fraternities and sororities did not pledge Jewish students. There was very little association, some, but very little association between the members of those fraternity and sorority. How did they show their anti-Semitism other than by not placing Jewish kids? Well, in not going out with each other. It was what I'll call social anti-Semitism. There was no violence. Of course, in an uneconomic environment, a non-businesslike environment, That element of anti-Semitism was not present. It was mainly social. There was just not a free association between the members of the Jewish group and the other group.
And perhaps this evidences it. I told you there were 28 in my graduating class at the Terrible Paratory School. There were six of us who took senior lap. parenthetically three of that six have become members of major Dallas law firms including myself in that group as I may now one of them was on the campus at the university when I was there he pledged the outstanding Gentile fraternity we always spoke to each other we were always cordial when we saw each other but we never made an effort to see each other. What about, do you think at that point in time would the girls that dated the non-Jewish boys, had they been asked?
Would the girls? I have no basis for an opinion there because I don't think they were ever asked. but I my guess is if they had been yes they would have okay and what about you as far as the non-jewish girls well I took out a few non-jewish girls from time to time but but it was not a not a regular thing Do you feel that to be an aspect of anti-Semitism? Do you feel that to just be lack of interest in, or very, you know, diverse interests? That there was no such, that there was no commingling there? Right. Yeah, sure, I'm confident that it was an evidence of anti-Semitism.
Not a very long one perhaps but the assimilation that we have come to accept now hadn come then Mm What about your attitude of assimilation As far as general assimilation at the mainstream, do you feel that that's a healthy... Is there any degree or... Ask me again. All right. As far as assimilation, is that the end that you would feel? I'm trying to do this without loading the question. How do you feel about assimilation? I think it's most desirable. When I was first elected to the board of the Jewish Welfare Federation, a delightful chap named Joe Ross was elected at the same time. Do you know Joe or remember?
He was the vice president of Neiman, but he was a brilliant young man and a substantial community leader. Now, we were asked to make speeches at the meeting at which we were elected, and he made a brilliant speech. Mine was not brilliant, but I remember saying that I felt that it was terribly important that the Jewish community continue its progress that I felt it was making in establishing itself with the general community. And I, responding to your question, I then felt, I still feel, I suspect, I always will feel, that assimilation is tremendously important. Have you read a book by a rabbi, Charles Silman, called A Strange People?
Not as yet. Well it worth reading and he has traced the history of the American Jewish people in this book and he remarks upon the extent of assimilation that has occurred in the period since World War II Well, he doesn't make a brief for it, but he recognizes it and thinks that it has made tremendous advance. And I think the clear implication of what he writes is that he does think that this is good for the Jews. Do you think that it will... Is there a retention of Jewish identity along with assimilation? Yes. Yes. Okay. How do you feel? Now, that's a varying degree. Now, I've tried to be entirely candid with you.
What he envisions, and this is more, perhaps more of hope than anything else, is that there will be, well, I said maybe it's a hope. I think he... I've gotten myself into position where I want to start over, too. Go ahead. He finds that there is a great return to religion among the Jewish people. And he thinks that this is because assimilation has extended to the point that Jews are not embarrassed about their Jewishness. And I think we have to infer from that that he feels assimilation is a desirable thing. I have not quite finished the book. I'm about 30 pages short of finishing it, and I expect to do that tonight.
But I don't recall any express statement to that effect, but I think that's a clear import of what he has said in other directions. It a very thoughtful and interesting book and it uh uh traces uh the history of the Jew in America. That alone is a reason not to read it, I think. What you're saying that makes me wonder if there isn't a broader interpretation of what we think in terms of assimilation that you perhaps are driving at. That you still retain Jewish identity, but yet are part of the American mainstream. Oh, that's exactly what I mean. I don't mean by this that you cease to be a Jew, or even partially cease to be a Jew.
And I think there are a lot of people who have become a part of the general community without in any way diminishing their commitment to Judaism, their involvement in Judaism. many of them are I think these figures indicate are highly religious people I'm not a highly religious person I think maybe I came along a little too early to have avoided the concern about being a Jew and while I have you see the things I've been involved in I have not avoided Jewish secular involvement at all but I have not been greatly committed to the religious aspects of life I wonder if perhaps it's a matter of tradition as opposed to actual identification as far as the carrying out of a particular tradition as opposed to what you think about the overall aspect of Judaism.
This could very well be true. My mother was deeply religious in a very personal sense. She believed that God was looking after her. My father was a committed Jew, but it never occurred to him that we should have religious services at home. My grandmother and some of her children were probably agnostic. So maybe what you're saying is right. Maybe the fact that religion has not been a major factor in my life is in some way a reflection of the tradition in which I grew up. Can we go back to early days? Okay. that I failed to ask you. Do you know about when your family moved to Dallas?
About what you... Well, I know exactly when my father moved to Dallas. It was 1904 when he graduated from law school. My mother, let me stop, my mother was born in 1888, and she was two or three years old when she came to Dallas. Her family had been living in Paris before then. However, her older brother and sister were both born in Dallas. Then her father moved to Paris. They were there for a few years and came back to Dallas. Do you remember any of the stories that they, or did they ever tell you about their life growing up in Dallas, or you know, where at the time they came to Dallas, what Dallas was like, and some of the family stories that you may have heard from them?
Not much. My dad told me that in the 1900 census, which was just shortly before he came to Dallas, there were less than 50,000 people here. I know that he was active in the B'nai B'rith. Ultimately came to be active in the temple joined the Columbian Club fairly early so I know Go ahead I sorry But while my parents were not wealthy people I know that they had one servant from the time they were married and two servants from the time I was born and I think this was not unusual at that time a colored servant lived on the place didn't get much not in the home but in the service house didn't get much in cash but room and board well that you talked about not observing any holidays what about except for a Canukah was there a Christmas tree in the house as well or not not in my house but in my maternal aunt's home I have I have a cousin who's eight years older than I and the Christmas tree tradition had begun before I was born and still continues I may ask.
Was there intermarriage? Was there intermarriage in the family? Not until the most recent generation. There have been some there. What has happened in terms of family and observance and orientation, religious orientation, in the intermarriage families or the families that have been married or the people that have been married? Okay. One of my nephews, married out of the faith, he had four children. They have been raised in their mother's Christian faith. My son our only child also married a Gentile and they have now one child who is 18 months old but she be raising her mother faith I have a first cousin, the only person of my generation who has married out of the faith, and he and his wife have no children.
But he is one of the great distinguished law professors. In Dallas? In Dallas at SMU. And his wife is the educational curator at the Dallas Museum of Art. And they have been married for many years and have no children and will have none. How do they deal with their religious orientations? You're talking about my cousin and his wife. Neither one of them has any religious orientation. And neither does my son, though he was confirmed at Emmanuel. And his wife grew up in Lubbock, in a Methodist congregation. They were married in a Presbyterian chapel here in Dallas. They have an understanding that if they have children, the children will be raised as Presbyterian.
I think that my daughter-in-law is quite religious, but is doing very little to evidence that she, now that her daughter is born, while she's spending most of her time looking after the baby. And I may say, and I think with considerable objectivity, She had a very fine sense of values. We're perfectly happy with the arrangement. Do you think your son will have any question Or of course this is How do you feel about someone growing up and hearing you don believe in a Savior you know philosophically Do you have any feelings about that? Your daughter-in-law being... Does she feel that Jesus is a Savior? Is there a break in philosophy there?
I don't think that any of that will bother my son. Any other recollections you had from growing up? Any other recollections of my growing up? Of my growing up? Gosh, I'm giving you more drivel already. we often heard about the um this is before my time but uh the medical arts building had a pretty famous drug store down there was there you know was it really famous um the kids congregate down there what was it like i don't know i never congregated down there i know the drug store and it was famous. It was a first-class pharmacy. I better remember the Medical Arts Building because all the doctors were there, and I saw some of them from time to time over the years, and also because our firm represented Dr.
Carey that built the building. Well, I, um, thank you for your... Okay, I'm always in the frame of missing something. Yes, go ahead. My wife and I were married in April of 1936, in the year following my graduation from from law school, and she moved to Dallas and very quickly became greatly attached to the city. And that's perhaps best evidenced by the fact that I was offered an attractive job while I was in California in the service to return when I got out of service. And I was interested in considering it, because the work I had been doing for the Six years that I'd been practicing law had not seemed to me terribly stimulating.
But my wife was most anxious to return to Dallas. In the six years that we'd been married, she had become very attached to the city. Parenthetically, I'm very glad that we retired. Yeah. It brings to mind, what about your own practice? How has it changed over the years? Or do you see some changes that are strong? Well, the practice of the firm has changed a great deal, and I think it's true of the entire legal community in Dallas. I would guess that when I got out of law school, perhaps half of the time of our office was spent in litigation, and I would guess that that's now 15%, something like that.
Certainly, my own practice, I haven't been in a courtroom as counsel, but three times, I think, since I got out of the Army in 1946, the Air Force in 1946. And two of those three times were in connection with corporate reorganizations under the Bankruptcy Act. That is sort of a non-oral litigating procedure. It's been fun to practice all in Dallas in these years. There's been so much going on here. What about in the Army? You mentioned that you were in the Army and you spent your Army years in the United States. How was that? What did you do? Where were you? Well, I was very anxious to get back into private life.
And yet I think they were good years, important years for me. they were maturing the earth beyond any doubt. I had a very sheltered life up to that time I got out of law school and went into my father firm which was the second largest firm in town at that point I learned in the Army that I could produce satisfactorily in a completely independent environment. I was, however, anxious to get out and glad to get out and return to private life. I found the practice, I had the good fortune to get involved in the business practice almost immediately when I got out, and have enjoyed it tremendously.
tell me about that kindergarten class in the kindergarten class taught by Mrs. Wormser that I attended there was Hortense Sanger then Hortense Landauer and my cousin Henriette Fetchaback who married Clarence Klein who became head of the English department at the University of Texas and got show Levi who lived in Dallas and I think that's all you may be aware of some of the Jewish businessmen that were here in the 1860s because of knowing families can think of anybody well the Sangers came to Dallas fairly early they came north with the railroad and I don't know when they first got to Dallas but it was pretty early Ian Cahn was here here Saul Dreyfus father I think his first name was Gerard.
Lawrence Pollock ought to be able to tell you, would have, the senior Mr. Dreyfuss would have been Lawrence Pollock's, I thought that Lawrence Pollock Jr. would have been his grandfather, so he ought, he'd not know for sure, but I think it was ironic. Herbert Marcus started as an employee at Sanger Brothers, but you're probably aware of that. Yeah. Of course the lenses were here pretty early. Ultimately, lens jewelry. Ah. Clarence Lins was one of the two men that created the South Mill Live Insurance Company, and he was a son of one of the Lins brothers. Oh. You know, we used to have, and unhappily decided we needed the space more than we needed the books, we used to have some very early city directories, but those would be available in some of the libraries and leaf through them and find the names of find the advertisements of the retail doors at that time Well, the names that occurred to me, but there must be many more.
Do you know about when the Fetch'n Box... Fetch'n Box? Fetchenbach. Fetchenbach. Yes. Well, no more specifically than I've indicated. My maternal grandfather was Sam Fetchenbach. He came to Dallas, and I don't know when, and had a retail store here. I moved to Paris, which he thought was more promising. That didn't prove to be, and he returned to Dallas. My mother was the only one of his three children who was born in Paris. The other two, the older two, were born in Dallas. My mother, as I told you, was born in 1888. Now, how much before that her father came to Dallas, I don't know. Her mother grew up in Baltimore.
And I'm not sure, but I'm under the impression that her family, she was a lamb, and her family had lived in Baltimore for a very long time. But you were going to tell me about you a little bit. First cousins, though, we're not related to each other. now you mentioned max max Ortley did he have a interest in Fulton bag he was the local manager for Fulton bag I very much doubt that he owned an interest okay and Hortense Sanger before she worked I'm jumping now I'm sorry 14 10 singers maiden name was Landauer Landauer our father was Horace Landauer and he was the head of Tite's Gettinger company for many years you perhaps can clarify this about Tite's Gettinger company the background on that word I had been told by something Someone questioned, were there originally four brothers or four people involved in Teich's and then...
I don't know. You don't know? Excuse me, there are only two that I know of. Edward Teich and Max Gensher. And I knew Ed Teich, but I didn't know Max Gensher. I think possibly he died before I became aware. And he was very happy. There's no question of it. And it may have been greater at one time than it is now. I'm thinking of the days when Alexander was really an important mover and shaker in the community. You know, a name... There were two Pearlstone brothers here. Have you run across Julius Pearlstone and his brother? what led me to that the Pearlstone whose first name I haven't thought of yet for a time was not the president of the First National Bank in Dallas but he was the person who was called the shots at the First National Bank in Dallas Hyman Pearlstone who would be his descendants his descendant well his son was Henry Burlstone who is now deceased and Henry Burlstone had a couple of daughters who I think one of them doesn live in the community and none of them have been active in Jewish affairs His widow is Marie Pearlstone and she has not been active in Jewish affairs but is a pretty bright woman You know, there was a...it just occurred to me as I was talking, there was a man named Gus Roos who had a store here in the early days.
I don't know if he goes back to the period that you asked about, which as I recall was the 60s. I doubt if he goes...they went back that far. I got to Ruse because Marie Perlstone was a ruse. Okay. I get the feeling, I can remember when I was growing up, there were like six of the department stores which you were shown. I'm not sure of the number, but certainly all the dominant stores were. Let's see, there were Sanger Brothers and Neiman Marcus and Teich Gettinger. W.L. Green was not Jewish-owned. It was one of the downtown department stores. What am I overlooking? A. Harris? A.
Harris, yeah. And then there were shops like Darver and Gus Roofs. Yeah. And Dreyfuss. Dreyfuss, certainly. Sure. There was a store that didn't last too long and was never dominant, Wheel. You remember when Dreyfuss was on Main, Murphy, I guess, Wheel was right behind it, on Elm. Irving. Irving or Irwin Irving Wheel Again most of the people I remember didn reach back to the 1860s I understand. I thought perhaps you'd know some of the children. I don't think so. Okay. Well. But I can well remember as growing up, we were told that Green was, he would not hire Jews, and to hear you say that he was anti-Semitic reaffirms that.
Again, I'm going to say something with some embarrassment. I was reminded of it when I said that I represented the people who purchased W.A. Green. I represented the people who sold Sanger Brothers to federated department stores. I think the president of the federated, a man named E.P. Simmons, died. And I was the only person on his board or in his organization who was even moderately articulate. And I negotiated with all the department stores and made the deal with federated. But the interesting part about that is that my father and I were probably the only two father and son lawyers who sold the same department store.
My father had represented the Old Santa family and had sold the store in 1927 to a man called man called Chester Jones who ran a group of stories called Chester Jones stories corporation that got into trouble the old sanger family took the business back and then a good many years later I turned around and sold the story at the Federation is federated Jewish owned no it publicly owned and very widely held it New New York Stock Exchange Company but the Lazarus family were the moving spirits in Federating for years and are unquestionably major stockholders F&R Lazarus was a department store created, as so many were, about the middle of the 19th century.
and the Lazarus Group started Federated. They brought in other major department stores and they dominated the ownership and direction of the store for many years. Now there's presently, I don't believe there's a single Lazarus on the board now, Ralph Lazarus who was the chairman chief executive officer well first mr. Fred Lazarus was was CEO and then Ralph after his death Ralph became but three or four years ago he retired to a position as sort of a consultative position and chairman they take out the executive committee but I don't think he's on the board now I think that he too is and he's a relatively young man at least he's I didn't realize.
Seventy is not Hexter, Louis Hexter. Louis Hexter's mother was a woman. But prior to that, prior to her marriage, she had been a fetching back, and she was the sister of my maternal grandfather, Sam Fetching back. Do you know how long they had been here? Do you have any idea? Give me a time frame. No, no really, none at all. I haven't anything that I could even make a reasonable guess on. Mm-hmm. Interesting.