Irvin Jaffee
Irvin Jaffee was rooted in Dallas's Jewish immigrant community. His father, Max Jaffee, was active in local charity, buying a house on South Boulevard where several elderly men lived, which grew into the community's home for the aged. Irvin remembered the hardships of Depression-era life, including a childhood account of living without electricity and bathing in a galvanized tub, and he recalled relatives such as his cousin Dave Tucker who came from Lithuania and worked in a saloon on Elm Street. He was strongly influenced early in life by his brother Morris, whose judgment guided many of Irvin's early positions on Federation matters.
In Dallas, Jaffee built a career in the pawn business. He first worked for his brother Dave, then for Bill Salters, and in 1946 went into partnership with I.J. Funk before buying out his partner in 1948 to run his own store. He described the daily rhythms of the pawn trade, from police inspections and low-cost merchandise during the Depression to the community customs of Deep Ellum, where merchants gave Christmas gifts to needy families. He offered a detailed catalog of Elm Street stores, shopkeepers, and neighborhood characters, painting a rich portrait of the district's Jewish and immigrant business life.
Jaffee's deepest legacy lay in his half century of service to the Jewish Federation. He recalled debates over funding national defense agencies such as the American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, and ADL, the shift toward supporting local agencies and Jewish education, and the contentious 1968 decision to fund the Akiba academy despite Rabbi Olin's opposition. A gifted solicitor, he told stories of persuading donors like Carl Pollock and Mort Meyerson to give generously, including a 3 million dollar Operation Exodus effort. He observed how the Federation grew to train young leaders, build a community center, and expand Jewish education over the decades.
Full Transcript
Jewish Federation. On Tuesday, October 26, 1999, the interviewer is Morris Stein. The purpose of this interview is to gather information for a dissertation. Your brother, Morris, he's not president at that point yet. And he claims that when people give to the Federation, it's primarily for the overseas agencies. And second, for the national defense agencies. He said that at a meeting? Yeah. I'll be sure of that. And he complains that the local services were increased by $20,000, from $158,000 to $178,000. And the defense agencies were cut back. And you support them. Your name is in there. You support them. Well, they showed the belt. Yeah. And they end up by increasing what was, remember the old Joint Defense Appeal for AJC and ADL?
from $18,500 to $20,000 instead of cutting it back down to $15,000. Okay. Why did you back any particular reason? Why did I do that? Did you agree with him? Well, I must say I was influenced at that time very much by the fact he was my brother. And if he wanted to go back to the Crew Trucks Clan, I probably would have said that. That's really the main reason. If I could play the record over it, I probably would have been more independent on it. But in those days, I was very dependent on his judgment. At this point, he was president of the... No, he wasn't president of the...
I think he was chairman of the Budget and Finance Committee at that time. Was there a general... Did he kind of reflect, do you think, a general feeling about that? Oh, I don't know. About the defense agencies, you mean? Yeah. Or about the local agencies for that. Well, in those days, the local agencies were considered last because we were having problems overseas. And that's when Hitler was... No, no, 51. Oh, 51. We were after the war. But we were still fresh. Yeah. We were still fresh in the line. Yeah And everybody was still very much aware of the concentration camps and the fight of the Jews had to bring them over da and everything else was like a day Sure remember Israel three years old The joint is still doing its stuff.
Yeah. Okay. But why the defense agencies? Because the pitch was given to us that you have to have strong defense agencies in this country to be sure that we're safe over here. That was the theory. Okay, there was still a feeling in those places. Yeah, sure. All right. I always felt that American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, and what's the other one? American Jewish Congress, American Jewish Committee, and ADL. And ADL overlapped. But my statement at the time, and still stands today, people used to say, we're over-organized. And my answer was, it's better to be over-organized than under-organized. But it was that they did duplicate each other.
And even to this day, they claim that they're the ones that tend to get Congress to do this, that, and the other. They're the ones that caused the anti-Semitism to go down and on and on and on. And if you read their propaganda, and I give to all three of them to this day, if you read what they say, they preach to you, they all preach the same thing. If it wasn't for us, you'd have real serious. Yeah. When I take a look at the record in the 1950s... Come in. I'm sorry. I didn't know you were with somebody. I was just checking in with you later.
Thank you. Tell her to take my call. I was giving to Hebrew Union College, to the Jewish Theological Seminary, to Yashiv University. And there's even discussions about why that's such a good and important thing to do. And we found it, yeah. By the 1970s, I came in the late 1970s, and we were just at the tail end of doing that. You know, the attitude was, well, let the congregations look after that. We've got no business being in there. All right. Before that happened, my daddy died in 1951. He was very, very pro-yeshiva. Jake Bellman was very, very pro-yeshiva. And they argued that we weren't giving enough money to the various religious schools and so forth.
At that time, of course, we didn't have a kiva. We didn't have anything like that. Solomon Checker wasn't there. We did have Hebrew schools. that share at Israel at Eaton School, there's a sacrum at Eaton School here. However the argument was well let the shores take care of their own The main reason for that was we had trouble getting reforms to contribute to the drive And one of the things the reforms said I don want to support even schools I don want to support orthodoxy So we gave very little money. And finally we had a meeting and said, tell you what, cut them all off.
Well, there was Sam Bloom at one point makes a very strong speech about supporting the religious institutions. I'm not talking about the Hebrew schools. Yeah, I don't remember that. You mean yeshivas? Well, no, not yeshivas. He's talking about Hebrew Union College. Oh, well, he was at the temple and he wanted to do that, yeah. and the Jewish Theological Seminary and the Shia University. They were the big three that were getting out of patience. And at one point, Sam Wooten says he believes that the Federation, the Temple, and private contributors all have a part to play in it. Sam Bloom had a lot of influence in those days.
I'll just tell you. Yeah. I've got to tell you something. Cut it off for a minute. In those days, I'll never forget this. He would give us $16,000. We were pretty damn good in those days, but they knew he had a lot more money than that. And I've told this story publicly without mentioning his name. I called him up and I said, he knew me, of course, because he knew me from where I lived and knew my dad. He knew everybody. They're good friends. So we had the insurance, everything. They're very good friends. So I called him. I wanted to see him. He said, sure, and I came out.
And in those days, he had an office. He had race horses, and the walls were just loaded with gorgeous, gorgeous silver trays you give you when you win a race horse. He had out of the office maybe 200 people at typewriters, no computers and those things. And I don't know why, but I went into his office, the door was left open, which was fine. And I pulled out the card and I said, this Pollock, let me tell you, I'm not going to talk to you about Israel, I'm not going to talk to you about Federation, you know more about them than I do. But I'm going to talk to you about the agencies.
I said you know our president they asked me to come out here and get you to sign this He looks at it and he said you know you the fourth man that called on me this week And I said to him what that little girl on that top right away what does she make Well, I don't know, she makes maybe $200 a week. I said, you know, nobody called on her this week, and nobody's going to call on her next week, and you're going to have four more people call on you next week, and four more after that. When I came out here today, I didn't have to see her, I had to see you.
You know why? She can't give me fifty thousand dollars. And he signed the card. Beautiful. And he signed the card. Now I'll tell you a piece of that story. That was the last year he had his mind. His speculism. Here comes the Yom Kippur War. I think that must have been in 73. 73, I suppose. The Yom Kippur War. It was a few years after I talked to Tommy. And we needed money desperately. So I had an idea. We had at that time the Dallas Club at the Public Bank, not Philly. Very fine club, the finest club. I called Lonnie and Malbert and I said, by this time they were handling everything and the old man was out of it.
And I said, I want you to give me the Dallas Club. And I never tricked them. I said, we're going to have a private room. And Murray Mummuss is coming with me and Stan and Pearl is coming with me. So they said, okay. I do know what I want, yes. And they never thought to me again after the room. My mother gave a talk on Israel. Pearl gave a talk to the local agencies. When he got through, it was my turn. I said, now let me tell you a boy something. You heard this story about Israel and the local agencies. I'm going to tell you, forget all that.
I'm going to tell you the story of Carl Pollock. Your daddy did a terrible thing to you. He was such a generous man who gave you so many things, but she did. He put that burden on your shoulders. Now you've got to keep that name up. and we're asking you to help us because I can't go to many people to get the money you've got. Lonnie said, I'll call you within an hour. He did. He called in. I was $200,000 in those days. $200,000. Jesus. Now, and they did very well after that. They gave us $150,000 to the job. They got mad about the property.
That's a different story. You know, give them to the rest of the day. No, I know that. So you know that. What do you have of the thing on that day? I was, it was towards the end of my tenure when they started with... And he blamed me for it. He said, you can call the Federation, and you can call the Foundation. They knew it. You tell them to be right, I said, Lonnie, I don't know the Federation. I don't know for some days. To this day, they think I'm a democracy, you know. Let me ask you a couple more questions. In your term as president is when the decision is made to fund a Hebrew academy.
Because all through the, when they started this, what they call it, the Federation of Jewish Social Services. Hallelujah. But in the Federation for Jewish Social Services back in 1923, the people at Sherith Israel said that they wouldn't give the Federation unless they took in the YMHA and the Hebrew School. The Hebrew School was at Sherith. Back in 1934 or 35, they decided they were going to stop giving money to the Hebrew school. And we get all these speeches about how they're for Hebrew education, that it's only for poor kids and it's for kids who aren't affiliated with congregations. And you see this argument about Hebrew schools all the way through.
Nothing goes for Hebrew education that I've been able to find out until Akiba in 1968. He was in Orthodox school, and I know that Rabbi Olin was opposed. What happened? Okay. We were then meeting at the Southland Hotel. Oh, what led up to it? Led up to what? Led up to the decision. Oh, the rabbis never came to a board meeting, but when this subject came, I think they came. Yeah. Marcus Rosenberg comes and asks for money. I'll never forget, Olin got up, and he was short. And I said, Rabbi, stand up so we can see you, make no fun of him. And he said, I may have the last bird on you yet, I'll never forget that.
He was against Hockaday, St. Mark's, Columbia Club, Brandeis, he was against anything that was organized strictly for Jews. He was against it. He thought it was wrong, but he shouldn't. So I did Hockaday, yes. Because the expensive spirit, he gets to the private spirit. He was against private schools. He was against St. Marks. He was against Clemming Club. He was against Brandeis. He said, if you give money to a keeper, I'm going to spit this community wide open. He made that statement I never forget it And I said so be it We have a vote and if you going to split the community if you have that power you go ahead and do it But he didn of course He didn have that power We gave him a big $9,000.
I don't know if the minute shows that, but I remember the figure very well. He gave him a big $9,000. The argument was, because Jewish education is sucking on tit and we need to do something about it. We're getting kids growing up not knowing anything, and we need to get with it. And that's the first story that we did. Well, something must have happened before it got to the board, you know, because... Oh, they're talking. They knew what was coming up. We had to... Didn't it have to go through the finance budget committee or something? We went through all that, and we had no secrets.
You've got to remember in those days, today they say the Metroplex had 50,000 Jews and the figure they quote to us. We quoted in those days 5,000 Jews. There were no secrets. And the agenda of the board was no secret. The board was big, and the word got out. Oh, they're going to talk about Akiba. But there was some point it got out. There was something to come to work through. And that's how the community started rising up. And we had a big board meeting that day because the book, where they knew we were going to vote on it. And Olin, I was shocked that a rabbi would say what he did say.
I want to tell you something, Rabbi Oliver was overrated too. Great, great teacher. Never should have been a rabbi. Milton told me to share a committee of some time. Yeah, Milton was fantastic. Poor Milton, you know the condition. He and I shared a drive together in 1965. Milton also was a leader in the community. He started what they called LEAD, the Public Education System. He started an organization that supports better pay for the teachers and get the proper teachers in, do it against the system the way it was. And he was very active at that. He's also very active at Common Cause. Yeah, I know what kind of thing.
Stanley Marcus had lunch and had dinner for them, going to a cocktail party for them in a couple of weeks. He called me the other day to get them some names. Fred, the former president of Harvard, is going to be here, who is now the head of Common He's going to pitch common cars. They're trying to be activated down here. And I gave him some names. And the Harvard alumni have numbers about 250 here So they are coming They being invited They don have to come So anyhow that what that happened then But I didn know that Stanley was headed to drive I going to ask him about that Yeah 19 I'm not sure he didn't know that.
1937, 1010. I don't remember that. In fact, he headed to drive, apparently, for two years. I was just reading it today. As a matter of fact, Stanley Marcus and Henry Miller Jr. the chairman of the Young Federation, they had the Federation of Associates or something they called it. I don't remember that. They had young men and women who kind of sat in on board meetings. There was a early leadership training. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Who was executive director Jack? Jack was at that time. I knew the director for him was a guy named Resnick. Yeah, Ruben Resnick.
He kicked him out of town. Did they? Yeah, Ben Lewis. Ben was another asshole. Ben was the only one we had present for one year. Ben Lewis. Ben Lewis. Everybody else in two years. Ben was the noseless son of a bitch, and he'd try to look under every detail, every chair, every this, every that. Which brings me to another question that you may have the answer to. there's the old men's home or whatever they called it. On top of it. Or upshall. Was that a synagogue? No, tell you what it was. It was a house at South Boulevard. Oh, just, okay. And six old men lived there.
Right. My daddy bought the house. Okay, was your daddy Max? Yeah. Okay, I just came across something today where he was elected to the board. Yeah, he gave him the house. He bought it. And that's what Golden Egg is that story. Okay. So they go up to 13, right? And they're having a discussion in the Federation Board of Directors in, I guess, 1948, 49, somewhere in there, about 1950. And they're having this discussion about how they should organize it. And they say they want, well they want it to be kind of an independent organization, but they want to be in control of it. They really want to be in control of it.
And then the next thing I see I haven gone through board minutes this is from the executive committee they independent They not only independent unlike the JCC and unlike the Family Service they don have the Federation doesn have any to it What happened on a Sunday morning at Doctor's Hotel, Henry Jacobus, Lawrence Polly, Henry Junior, or the old man? The old man. Lawrence Polly, my daddy, Judy Sheps, Uh, creditor? May have been there. I know that my daddy made creditor present for the place in Top Boulevard. That's why creditor is mad because Herb was there in the past, and goes naked to what the car goes naked to do.
Anyhow, they were down there, that's when they decided we were going to build a home for 42 people. And the Regent's work hit so badly, a guy named Solo was Gene Solo. And by the way, he lost a boy at the Bolts. He got killed at the Bolts. Anyhow, and that big scandal on him came up. He was arrested for fooling around little boys. This was Eugene Stoll? Yeah, Eugene Stoll. And he has said that he went crazy in the building. That's the boy was killed. And he was accused of fondling little boys. Anyhow, that's what made Pat Hope Shore, who was 22 years old, He was 25 years old, a kid, and he came in and he built those, I think it was 42 to what he did now.
No, no, 52. No, 42 people. Oh, 42. Yeah, there's a story in there that the budget, the allocation that they gave the home, begins on November the 1st. Shore comes in in March or April or something like that, and they need money to pay him. And they have to come to the board and ask, and they have a discussion, and they decide they're going to pay this guy and pay for his moving. But how did they get out from under the Federation? I don't know. They said that group that went on Sunday morning was conservative reform and orthodoxy. Yeah. And they had the only argument they had about kosher.
Yeah. And the argument on that was, the rabbis wanted it, the orthodox, the argument was, it's not going to hurt the people who didn't keep kosher. It would hurt the people who were kosher who didn't get to keep kosher. You can't do that to them when they're 80 years old. All right, let me take you a step further. They decided on their first expansion, and they had to get Federation approval, and they got approval for 40 banks, 40 new banks, and then they come back to the United States, And they won 52. And they have this big argument and finally, who is at Corngood, Emil Corngood is the chairman, who says, we're going to do what we're going to do.
Yeah, well I tell you, for this reason, everybody was involved with the home because they either had an aunt, an uncle, a mama, a daddy, somebody. Yeah. And it's a good place to put them, would do whatever they want to do. And you had to do it. By the way, the land, the reason it's located so badly, Tarpin owned that land, Herman Tarpin. They gave us the land. Well, that was a big gift of those days. You don't have to buy the land. And today, of course, it's awful. We have bigger problems than that today. Really bad problems. But anyhow, the reason they got anything they wanted is everybody had somebody out there.
Just about at least a mock was there. They had somebody out there. So they said to give them whatever they wanted. And they did to this day. The show used to be a great money raiser. They used to say, what do you want me to do? What should I do? Cut out nurses? Want me to cut out the food? Tell them what to cut out. And that sold them. What do you want? It was always hurt and stressed. Oh, yeah. We won't feed them. Yeah, we won't feed them. We won't nurse them. We won't take other poor people. That's right. Let me, you've been, you've witnessed and been involved in the Federation now for a close time, 50 years.
Yeah, that's right. What are the changes you notice in what they do, how they do anything? Well, one of the major changes I've noticed is that we started recognizing we need to take care of local agencies. Over three years it happened that way. We finally built a community center. I think we're one of the last of the big cities in America to build a community center. By the way, we had a real fight on that. That was something that happened. Yeah, you're talking about the original Judy Schepstler. Yeah, Judy Schepstler. And by the way, he died and I had given him a nickel. And we went to the Wither and said, you might have to take his name off, called the Jewish Community Center.
I love it. She was Jewish, by the way. Anyhow, what the changes I've seen to answer your question is, one thing is they've done a beautiful job of training young people, taking them to Israel, and getting them educated on whether it is to be Jewish. That's one of the changes. Long boy young people as well. Another thing is they've built up Jewish education, a major change. I guess we're giving out two, three hundred thousand dollars to, between Schechter and Akiva and Yabda or whatever it is. And the Federation own education Yeah right I think it probably It ten percent of allocations There it is Yeah Yeah I think back to the day we gave to Akiva Anyhow that a major change I seen It was a 41 church education Another thing is we're telling the national agencies, go swim for yourself.
We give the American Jewish Committee, I think, $6,000, American Jewish Congress $6,000, and ADL probably the same thing. the same thing. Maybe they'll give them all the same. They're not worth it. They're not amazing. They do. They raise their own with their dinners. They've gone to the Gentile community as you know the honor of Gentile every year and the honor of Jereb. And that's what they do it. And that's fine. Somehow or other that's worked out. So the major changes I've seen as I've seen were an hour and a half on the tape. They cut it all out. That tape was good. Well he had some good things He really started checking.
He had money in those days. Oh, I know. He had the biggest heart in the city of Dallas. I'll say that about Obazowski. And I was worried about him being made president of the Federation because of the fact that I didn't think he had to cruise and so forth. He was great. He did a good job. But anyhow, the guy's got to use your heart. By the way, on that, Mort Myerson made a statement the other night. Were you at the meeting? No, you weren't at it. And Mort Mouset said they had to speak to so-called some of the leaders of the place others. And he said, when I made money, I called Urban Jaffee.
And remember, and I'll tell you a story about him that's interesting. And then he and the Meadows Foundation had a seminar at Cooper's Aerobics one time. And Mort Mouset said at that time, I didn't know what it was to give, but I got a hold of Urban Jaffee. Well, you got involved in the campaign with Operation Exodus. Right, we did it in his house. Yeah. We raised three million dollars. That's when I saw Morton really come out. Yeah. When Morton was getting, I got started with it. I went to a meeting and they were calling cards, and this was before Exodus, for the annual drive, and they said, what does he do?
He said, he gets $35,000. By this time he was making a lot of money. And I said, well, I don't know what he wants the card. He said, we won't talk to anybody. He's got a mandate. He said, bullshit, give me that card. I called him, and they were building the Meyerson Center. And I went up to see him. He said come over Monday night 6 o And go there Monday night 6 o And then I shared the house they lived in And I said Martin you must really be proud of the fact that Meyers and Center is brought up He said, yeah, it's pretty good.
I said, well, it's real. I said, just think. People are coming from all over the world, critics. They're going to be writing about Meyers and Center, they're ready to write about Carnegie Hall. Every time an artist comes here, Meyers, he played at the Meyers and Center. I said, you know, there's something bad about that. He works out. I said, the obligation your kids are going to have. But forget about the kids. The moment I'm coming to you because everybody else is coming to you, I'm here with the Jews. Tell me about it so I can explain what's going on. I said, listen, you pay taxes on your home, don't you?
He said, of course. I said, you know, your tax yard won't build according to any kind of car. You die from the court. You pay taxes on your income, and the government doesn't record any income. Even after you die, you pay our home. That's right. I said, I'm here for a different tax. He said, what is it? I said, Carl, Carl's tax. He said, what's God's tax? I said, commencement with the blessings you're getting. He said, well, what is my tax? I said, well, let's see. This year, you've been given, I'd say, for over $100,000. He said, my God, what's my tax going to be next year?
I said, I don't know. I don't know what God's going to do next year. And he gave us $100,000. Two weeks after that or three weeks after that, Exodus comes off and asks me and Murray to head with them. And I figured everybody wants to see that house, we'll get them there, minimum $10,000. We can raise that night, I'll never forget it. And he didn't pledge that night. A couple of days later I called him and said, Mort, you didn't give us any money that night for your pledge. He said, you know, I gave you the $100,000 for the job, you didn't tell me about Exodus.
I said, Mort, you're not going to believe this. Grubachoff didn't call me and tell me he was going to go to one of the gangs. I said, that's what they're mad. That son of a bitch didn't call me. And he said, I was about $120,000. Well, Mort's an interesting guy. Oh, yeah, he's divorced now. And he lost a boy. Uncle Sam's pawn shop, that was Bill Sawleys. That was Ben Morton. Ben Morton was further down. Ben Morton wasn't deep down, it was the other side of Harwood. That was the other Howard. Deep Allen was considered from Howard East. I can tell you all the stories about that.
Did it have walls over there? Walls didn have yeah old man Walls Saul Walls father had a store there Wow And then Seymour Goldstein had a store But he didn go back as far as we go back And the cross puzzle King of Elmsby We had one man, I don't know when he did any business, but all day long he did cross-white puzzles. That man right there. He'd get stuck on some ways you'd ask me. It cost me almost, I missed one letter, women, $1,100. Well, he wiped them all day long on cross-white puzzles. And then you had, name some more, you were one of them stores on Elm Street.
You had Dave Eisenstein. That was way down. He was way down. That was deep, deep, deep. When you go to the other side of Good Street, it was deep, deep. Yeah, they were further down. The Rubens Grocery, Sam Kessner, Tom Kessner. Yeah. The 2200 block had Haskins. What about your sister, Isaac? And my father paid Mr. Haskins to hire me. Who was your sister? That building is still there. They made a move out there, Molly Dorner. Molly. And Molly's two-stop still got the sign. That's one of the last ones near Crowder Street. And they made a move. They're going to throw the building down, and that's been already how many years?
I lost a lot of money on deals. And that went way back, and the building is still there. It says Molly's two-stop thing. Yeah, I know. Then there's a shoe store there. If he's still there, I don't know, Spain. Yeah, he still was. The father had the store, and that goes way back when I came to Dallas. Spain had a shoe store, and his son is an old man, a very old man. Now, I haven't been down there. Is he still there? He's still there. He's still there. That was a guy, Spain. And then, what's his name, was across the street, that paint company. Fink Paint.
Fink Paint Company. And Mutele Coil and the Shoemaker. Yeah, he was on the 2300 block Mutele Cone. That's where Jack Stein took over. Jack Stein bought it. Jack Stein took over my brother's store. Uncle Sam's, I mean Dave's pawn shop. When Dave went out of business, Jack went in there. There was bar shops next door. Some way, you're knitting and you're bending to my family some way. When you first opened your store, where did you get your merchandise? When I went in business for myself, well I was working first for my brother Dave, flight driver. I mentioned you were working for your uncle. First I worked for my brother Dave and he got too tough.
He was tough on me, very tough. And the last time I went to work for Bill Salters. Say interview I had on KLIF after the shooting of President Reagan, I saw Hinkley the gun. And the newspapers were printing false stories. So I had to get a public relations firm to get me on there. And they interviewed me. So I just ran across the tape the other day. I got it home. Anyhow, going back to the pawn shops. Okay, you went to work for soldiers. That's right. And then he wanted to retire when he was 50 years of age. So he decided to sell out. That's right.
He's smart that way. And he sold out to, well, the promoter was Gene Levin's father, but he sold out to his two brothers, Blasser brothers. Sam Blasser bought it. So I just, and they wanted me to work there. Gene Levin wanted me to work there. I said, no, I don't work for anybody anymore. So I went in partners with I.J. Funk. What year? 1946. 46. That's right. And we went in partners and I bought them out in 48. And I was in business, I'm in business since 1948 for myself. What a business. And I gave my business away to my son in, uh, 83. So now I'm an employed person with no salary.
salary. Now with the pawn shops, the rule of thumb. You work for peanuts? I do. Well, your name is not Carter. Your name Carter? I get what do you call them? Clattered curls? I don't grow a salary. Did the pawn shops have individual specialty items that they would specialize in as well as taking items in pawn such as jewelry or They took everything in part. Tools, jewelry. Jewelry wasn't so hot then during the Depression, but we took a lot of jewelry. Tools, suits, jackets, they took in clothing, yes, a lot of clothing. Brother Ruby took in ball style. Everything. I forgot about a good store.
Everybody knew model tailors. Wyfer and Aronofsky, everybody knew. When you wore a model tailor suit, you were something. And the only one that wore one different, the same, uh, He still has. He still has. He still has beautiful face. And we took everything in porn and we were regulated by the state The city checked us every day They came and checked everything you took in pawn you had a show When did that start when did the city start checking the pawn shops Do you know The time period That wasn always Oh yeah. Since 1900? No, when I went in 1929 they were checking us. That's right, the detective came and there were two detectives coming every day and most of the stuff we were taking the clothing.
We even took shoes and pawns, because the black people used to wear Florsheims, Nunn-Burge, Stacey Adams, and they wore Stacey Adams's high class, and they'd pawn the shoes to you. You'd own five, six dollars a pair of shoes. And don't forget, we're talking about depression. When you charge sixty cents on a six dollar loan, that was a lot of money. You know, on Yontiff I go an extra cook, on Usury, our fate for that Usury thing. What about the new merchandise? Did you also carry new merchandise? We carried new merchandise. Now, I'll tell you, I ran across some papers. I don't know what I did with them.
We sold that time socks three pair for a quarter during tough times, handkerchief six for a quarter. We sold men's shirts for $0.49. You can't imagine that now. We sold men's pants for $1.98, but real good pants for $1.98. Sometimes you cut the price $1.49. Isn't that right, Hilda? $0.75 for blue jeans. That's right. That's correct. They wore overalls in those days. What time frame, year frame, what years? I came in 29. No, but that was in 29 and you did. What about in the 30s, the later 30s? They always checked us. How about the price? What was the price comparison from the 20s to the 30s?
It started going up. The prices started going up after the war, 46 is when it started. Now, right, correct me on that, Jaime. And 46 is when stuff started to go up. and they kept going up. They're up now. The phrase is going to go down too. Did you have any problem during the war with merchandise? You mean getting merchandise? During the war? Was there any regulation? No. No. Francis asked about the freaks. Garber asked about the Freeds. They started in the furniture over there. Freeds. Oh, Freeds. Freeds were on the uh 2500 block Let see 20 uh on the same block with Day Pawn Shop I think that where Siegel was across the street Siegel was across the street.
It was across the street. Fried's was on the same side as Day's Pawn Shop and On The Joes. And Siegel was across the street. Uh-huh. Then you had Goodwill, Deep Elm, across the street, Goodwill. And you had Mindset and Planks and then Oog Cook on the Kosher Stahl, Sal, Sal, mine and Steve? Yeah. Sal's Restaurant. Sal's Restaurant, right close to Goodwill. I just talked to the next door. Yeah, and you had Milam's Restaurant on the course of the street. I want to tell you nothing about this. We had a couple of customers at our store, the liquor store, you know, when we were on Wall Street.
And one of them was a man called Milam. I tried to think of his name. Milam's Cafe. No, no. Miss Discovac. Miss. There was a miss in the Discovac family. Am I right about that? I don't know. I know that Sylvan was a bachelor. Sam was married. She was a lady. And he said that she used to send so many young fellas through college. If they would come to her and they showed themselves worthy, she would take away from college. I'll tell you something else. During the Depression when Bill Salvis had a tough, now I don't praise him all the time. When things were tough, Dr.
Truett was alive that time, head of the First Baptist Church. And he had an agreement with Bill Salvis. People came there, needed shoes, needed clothes. They called him up, Dr. Truett called up Bill Salvis, just sent him down. And he couldn't pay his bills at that time, I can tell you. But he never turned them away. George, too, liked him. I'll tell you about Bill Salters, too. He fought the Ku Klux Klan until they made him an honorary member. That's right. Only June Dallas honorary member. He fought the Ku Klux Klan, tooth and nail. How did he do that? That's before my time, when the Klan was strong.
He was a Mason for years, going way, way back. And all the police were Ku Kluxes. They still be, I don't know, but they were then. They had the frades. They, you know they were cool cultures. And he fought them. He go to the newspapers he go to people and they said this guy too tough Oh he a fighter We had more broken showcases on the store When a guy would get him mad he have got a temper He'd still got a temper now at 90 years of age. Every week we'd have a broken showcase there. But they're good-hearted people on the street. Now, I'll tell you something else that happened.
You don't see it anymore. Christmas Day, we used to open up, only for one reason. All the Mexicans used to bring, until we caught up with them, they'd bring their kids with them, and we'd give them gifts. We'd love them. Christmas gifts, they'd call it something else. And the Dockies come in, they'd come for their Christmas gifts, and we had bottles of whiskey, give them a drink. We ran slowly, put a little water in there, water the dock for. Right, Harvey? And they'd come in for their gifts. Well, we caught up one time, so a Mexican woman would come in with six kids. I thought I saw them kids before.
They'd go on a corner and swap bottles. Now we got this during depression. Things were tough. You give your kid a pair of socks or something. Did all these stores do this? Most of them. The porn shop did. All the porn shops did it, yeah. It was an unwritten rule. That Christmas Day, they came in. They also took care of their own Jewish people that came and were down and out. They all got together. That's right. They started that time. That's when the Hebrew free loan started. And Saul, Saul, William's father, Mike Levine, came in there collecting diamonds and nickels and diamonds and quarters. A quarter was a lot of money in those days.
When they find a published story. Yeah. I wouldn't want to go through that again, but it's very interesting. Very interesting. any more stores over there? The bar shops were there? Yeah, Max W. Bar Shop. Bloom's? Bloom's worked for Dista back, remember when the Bloom's was? Yeah, there was another one. With Miller? Jake Bloom had a store, then there was a store on the 20 block where Preston Pawn Shop is. There was C.S. Bloom had a store over there. Oh, I forgot to tell you. There was another store that didn't change from a few years ago, old man Michelson. The shelves were like this in there, just like they were in 1900.
The lights, the little light bulbs that you have were the same as 1900, and he'd sit on a box in the front, smoking a stogie. And a store, when he passed away, and that store was They never did change it until that liquor store went in the bottle and it wouldn't stay on shelves. That's just Michael's. Hmm? That was, well, it was a big family to Michael's. There was, he was a father to, no, there was a, let me see now. There was Jake Michael's that was in the paint business. And then there was Max Michael's who was a pawn shop, and Jaime Michael's. And then, uh, we'll be going way back.
And then, uh, this is A. Michelson that was I'm talking about there. He was the oldest. He was the oldest. And he'd sit down at a box. Every time I drove by, he'd sit down at a box. And the shelves would go like that. He had a big shoe in the front, you remember? About a size 20. That was his emblem over there. The shoe was old. He'd keep painting it there so it wouldn't fall apart. And he sold white shoes and stuff like that on those slant shells. One light bulb. There was a saloon where the tracks were. There was, yeah, there was a Greek...
Oh, that saloon. I'll tell you why. My cousin, Dave Tucker, when he came over here... Dave Tucker or Dave Tuck? Dave Tucker. Uh-huh. When he came to Dallas from Lithuania, he went to work in that saloon. Worked there. On the corner of Elmister, it was Alvis Domino Parlor, what they called it. Now this was a saloon and it was right on the tracks. What were those tracks? Well, one side was Otis's drugstore. Two things, correct. This I got to tell you about Otis's drugstore. That was a landmark. All the doctors that got diseases, venereal disease, they didn't call the doctor. They went in to them and gave me a dozen of those pills.
He had a barrel of those pills. He sold them without a description. A dozen of those pills. What's now you use is a dozen pills. sell for a bill, he'd sell them 50 cents for a dozen or 75 cents for a dozen, and he'd sell cigarettes. Cigarettes for that time, 15 cents a pack. And the poor Doc, he didn't have 2 cents, 3 cents, he'd buy loose cigarettes. Well, he'd end up getting 20 cents for a pack of cigarettes. So you gotta open packs, he'd make more money that way. And you'd buy 2 cigarettes, 3 cigarettes, now that's tough times. Right, Hyrie? Right. And there's Albus Domino Parler and and oldest drugstore over there.
Then there a Coney Island hotdog joint that Greeks had a higher Coney Island You don remember the this may have been before your time because Cousin Dave came here about 1906 That before my time Now that Domino parlors were drinking. When they say Domino, they played Domino and they drank and the back was a bookmaker that booked baseball games. Now there was a saloon there because I remember Johnny talking about they'd go in and get a bucket of beer. Well that was before my time. That's before my time. When he was a little, when he was a little. Alvin's Domino Pollock sold bottle drinks. They didn't have canned drinks, had bottle drinks at that time.
They had the most of their customers were barrels. Who else would have there? You know, because they had the railroad there, or I don't think the artists came in the drink with it. I don't think so. No. No, they didn't. They may have had six dollars there. They had their places on the tracks. Now when they went into Volks to buy a pair of shoes, they couldn't sit down and try it all. What size do you wear? And they wrapped them up, that's the shoes they got. And those that bought from Neiman's was delivered to their home. They didn't come in there and try them on.
There's one guy that broke the barrier, a guy by the name of Charlie Bracken, was in the bonding business, a light-colored black fellow. He was very wealthy. But he wouldn't come in there either, they sent it to him. And they drank on the tracks, that's where the joints were. I saw a a black fella kill a guy over a dime. He shined his shoes, he wanted 20 cents, he wouldn't give him but a dime, and he killed him. And I said, Bob Logan, you shouldn't have done that. Well, who lives by the sword dies by the sword, somebody else killed him then. Well, I can write a history of a deep element of killings over there.
What about the police? What was the role of the police? Did they have any control over there? Did any of the... Well, there's two foot policemen came in, they're big guys. A guy by the name was Harry Stewart, and a fellow by the name was Sliger. And they were tall, big. And they'd walk down there and they'd hit him. You know they'd hit him with him. They'd take out their handcuffs and slap him across the mouth as they get out of line. And they were wild. Them black people were wild. They weren't smoking marijuana mostly, they were drinking. And they can't hold their liquor. And every once in a while they'd call for the riot squad.
They'd come down there and knock the hell out of the innocent ones too. But they'd, get out, move. Now we did a good knife business. Whenever knife business dropped off, I tell Harry Stewart, Harry, my knife business dropped off. He walk on the track he say all you niggas that what they call them in those days stand up take your knife off but don open the blade And I only seen you open it up and put it between two bricks and break the blade My knife doesn take that What kind of family life did those families have with them working in the 70s? They never saw it.
That's why I was resentful of that. They never saw their families. And I told them, you're crazy. But you see, they came from Europe. He gets Papa. He came from Europe, didn't he? How did they work over in the ghetto? They were glad to work, and they worked 20 hours a day, and just barely made a living. They come in and thought it was the same way. You see, this wasn't the Goulder Medina like in New York there. They had problems up there, too. But they didn't know anything but work. Go to shul. Work and go to shul. That's all. In the old country some of the work was right in the home, so at least the family was around.
The family life was bad. That's the reason I resented when I got married. I said I want to see my family. I want to see my kids grow. That's why my son doesn't want to work on Saturday. I gave him the business. He said, mm-hmm. Five days is enough. I got three kids. I want to see them. I said, you don't work on Saturday. I won't work on Saturday. He said, the store stays closed. We don't stop with this. that they worked hard around you was because if they had children they wanted to be sure that their children went to school and went to college all jewish families always in new york they wished for that too they did without to send their kids they got to be a doctor they got to be a lawyer that's what it was they worked until their children were out of college And Lottam didn't get any thanks for it either.
That's right. That was a fellow, a Jewish fellow, who opened a meat market next to the Santa's Porn Shop. He had three sons. Who was he? Krakow. Harry Krakow, his two other brothers. That's right. And he opened that and he worked hard. He worked hard over there selling that meat to the charges. Some of the meat came in green, they rubbed embalming fluid on it to make it red. And they don't hurt him, it makes the meat get red, see. Anyhow, he worked hard. Now he sent them all to school. And when he had a heart attack, this gentleman was saying, No, you got more money than me, this man says, He timed me, timed me off then.
They were frightened of who was going to take care of Papa He didn fight who was going to take care of send the the kids to college Now very rarely do you see that but I seen a few times where the kids the father can take care of the kids, but the kids can't take care of Papa or the Mama. He was lucky in his family. He was lucky in his family. They were respectful of their father and their Mama. They took care of their Mama. I'm not saying just to say it, Hildy. We know that. I know it. You took care of Mama all the time.
That's right. Remember Ackerman? Rippin and Ackerman. That's right, the grocery store. Nathan Rosen. You see, during the Depression, they had food stamps. And that's what saved the grocery stores on Elm Street and saved a lot of people. The government was giving out food stamps, and that's why they did their business over there. That's why they do business with food people. And we don't know, the average person don't know what happened in 1930, 31, 32, 33, when you're hungry. When they're around, college professors, they got no job, they sell apples for a nickel, I guess you've heard of it. They sell fruit. They go around peddling with a basket, they're peddling stuff out of there.
That's how tough things were. It was tough. Where was the Reuben Grocery store? Reuben Grocery was on the 2500 block. The 25 between Hawkins and Goodlatte. And about what year was that? Well, it had food stands before Roosevelt. When Roosevelt came in, or before Roosevelt. Roosevelt came in, 33. He came in 33, Roosevelt. was out in the country I guess. He said, Pearl. Pearl. Yeah, I remember that. Were broken stews, broken no. Boganes? No. There were no kosher butchers in that area. Did you have a question? There were three kosher butcher shops in Dallas. Fromm's, Abramson's Market, I never forget, it was the Avery's and Marquette, and the one on Colonial was Golden.
Golden. Golden. And one of them sold out to Montrose. That was Golden. Fromm was the biggest one, because I worked together with the Vatakashvists, and we knew we controlled them, and we knew how many cattle because they paid by the head. Fromm's capital they slaughtered, and Fromm's slaughtered the most, and Gold was next, and Abilson was the tail end over there. Were the three of them in business simultaneously at the same time? Yes, yes, and we had, what's his name, Ryback, Reverend Ryback at one time was the Meshgir, and we had Rabbi Annas was the Meshgir, and then Sidney Abramowitz, Rabbi Abramowitz's brother Sidney was the Meshgir.
I know we had a little trouble with those guys. Promise getting meat into the back door on Shabbos. And we found out, and Goyim told us about that. You can't get it delivered on Shabbos. We told him we were going to take our certificate off the wall. You don't get delivered to the meat on Shabbos. You get delivered during the week. You take it there and cut it back there, that's trey. Who did that? Well, he's getting out. Promise me what. What year? You want me to remember everything? Why not? No, about the time frame. Well, that's when Sidney Abramowitz was here. That's a long time ago.
Rabbi Abramowitz, you remember from Magutasachim? He had a brother. That's all he did was, he was a mezquia, an overseer, and he was a shirchit. That must have been around 1930. You remember when Cantor Kaplan was also the moyle, the shurkhets? That's right. That was a big deal in those days. You'd be together barrel there with sawdust and throw the chicken down. He moved Mr. Frum out of rubber's name. Which is the packing company. I don't forget those things. That's right. And Rabbi Annis used to get a lecture to meet during the time with ration. am I right a long time ago now who was I see if anybody in here can recall who was the Rabbi with a beard of Teferi Israel.
He died in Israel. I have his picture, but I don't remember his name. Lomkovsky. Lomkovsky. That right Rabbi Lomkovsky And he was Rabbi of Teferi Israel Now he was a real believer He was a real believer I can testify I was very good friends with him He had a daughter, a little skinny one. I forgot their name. Ann? Ann Lanskin, the oldest girl passed away. Yeah, what's the oldest one? I don't know. I forgot. Ann Lanovich. Ann Lanovich, yeah. Ann Lanovich is his name. We're going back years before you all were born. And he took a real estate business. I love it. What else do you remember about Alvin?
Hey, you were raised on Elm Street. What's the matter with you, Harvey? Speak up. He's forgetting. I'm listening. I recall everything he said. Now, don't forget now. He was a crossword puzzle king. Custard would come in. He said, wait a minute, wait a minute. I've got to figure this way. I'll tell you, when I started crossword puzzles, I didn't know. As far as I'm on the vertical, I had to look it up. Things were real slow that time. So I started to turn the pages of the paper, and I seen this thing. I looked at it for the next day. Instead of straightening the stock up, I looked at the puzzle every day, and I got more interest.
You walked by, he called you, and you remember this word? What does this word mean? Isaac, what was the Bennett's shoe shop? Bennett's came in later. Came in later, down there on the 2,500 block. There was Davis there in the old clothes business, Harry Davis. I remember? No, Halliday. Halliday, Mr. Harry Day. No, Harry Day is the manufacturer. What about the- And for Lake Levine walking up and down the streets? Fortens? Lake Levine? He used to be in the concessions at Fairfax. Concessions. I mean, Charlie Maxwell. I remember that. Lake Levine and I were good friends. He'd bet on baseball, too, you know. We used to discuss him.
He played baseball. Yeah? Miller pointed him out to, you know, we used to wear old clothes and, you know, he'd He don't act. He said, see that man? What's happening to him should happen to you. Lungy Stump and Gilt. Lungy Stump and Gilt, but you couldn't tell him looking at him. You know what the Lungy Stump means? Loaded. He left a little solid a little bit and we lost the money. What did he say? He said during the Depression he loaned money to the banks. And you look at him and you think he's a pauper. Yeah. Who was that? Ed Laleigh. Life of Lee. There was three brothers Yeah Aaron Aaron Aaron Levine And Lange Levine and there was another brother It was Levine who was the cobbler on Main Street Announcement was a unicorn.
The cobbler, a unicorn. Mr. Brauman was right next to us. This man was down near Yankham. Well, that's not Deep Hell. Now, there was a good Jewish store, I don't know if I told you about, I. Rudy. People should never forget him, but they've forgotten him already. Yeah, Field Street and all that. The man had a big store there, and every Christmas he gave out clothes. They were lined up for blocks and blocks. I. Rudy, your blessed memory there. And he gave four people, and there were four people in, especially in Mexicans. They had nothing, and he gave away clothes. Now, even Max Rudy had a store, too, but I.
Rudy was the one that gave away about clothes. he was not on the film no no no that's on famous way down there he was on the last time but he's a good jew oh but now what did he just he had like a private store yeah make everything dry good yeah he had a he had a close it was like a close one didn't that part we did that made it become the leader star lehage yeah bill street later yeah i wonder what they had a tenured old But they want Deep Balm. They want Deep Balm over here. How long were the Orlis's out there, Louie and Abe?
Oh, Louie, now Abe Ornish had a store on Elm Street. Then he came on Elm Street. On the 2300 block. And Louie, that was Abe's pawn shop. And then Louie Ornish was Liberty pawn shop. A few doors away. Uncle Sam was next to Liberty over there. And Louie Ornish loved to go fishing. He'd rather fish than eat. They're all gone. I mean his brother-in-law, Joe Berman was their pressman, remember? Joe went in with Aaron Klausner. And then he bought out Aaron, and then Joe sold out to the N'Goyim. At the right time, too. They regret buying the place. Noodleman was on the block between Pearl and Preston.
And the fellow named Chris. Chris and Crest both. K-R-I-S-S. That right We going on that block too jake was on that same block selling paint right then there was uh wasserman way and wasserman on the opposite side of the liquor store whereas i don't drink so i don't know about liquor stores way past uh i'm a baptist picture show past the picture shows That's how we call them niggas to fix the store. Now it's black. Or colored. Here's the Argoids, yeah. But the Argoids came after me, long after me. And Mr. Monskowitz, I ran the Delicatown, the David Hotel. That's right, that's right. What kind of store did Littleman have?
drivers what about the people that live behind their stores well B Swartz first opened up the understand that before my time he lived upstairs before he moved to Corrine Street, I guess what, Corrine. They call Swartz Alley, he owned all that property over there. He lived upstairs. Some people lived in the back. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll tell you that, my brother Dave lived in the back of the store. He lived in the back of the store, then he moved upstairs. That's right. Raised a lot of kids, too. Back of the store. I worked with my brother. That's right. They had a rubber bathtub you pulled up and fed water from the sink and put it in there.
It was like a top, but it had rubberized sides. And you filled it with water. The way people get to read my book when a book comes out, when I was eight years old in New York, he was talking about tubs. We had a galvanized tub that long and that wide, and we used coal, coal for the heat and water. There was no such thing as a bathroom. The toilet was downstairs. was downstairs. We lived on the floor, the toilet was downstairs, two toilets down there. Had to walk down up and down the steps. We had no electricity. Had a gas meter on the wall.
You had to stand on the, and put a quarter in there. No quarter, you better light some candles. And we take a bath, and I was the youngest in the family. I was the last one. I needed a bath after I got out of it.