Lillian Roback Butler
Lillian Roback Butler was born in Russia and came to the United States as a one-year-old, sent for by her father who had emigrated during the years of the pogroms. Her parents came from Kiev, and family members settled in places such as Mineral Wells, Fort Worth, Waco, and Omaha, Nebraska. Her family landed in New York and eventually went to Omaha, where her father lived his entire life. Lillian grew up in Omaha, attended high school and a stenographic business course, and was working as a secretary for a hospital supply house when she first traveled to Dallas.
In 1921 Lillian came to Dallas to visit her sister, Mrs. Lewis Onish, and decided to stay after being offered a secretarial position. She first lived on Hickory Street, and after meeting Sam Roback at a Simchas Torah celebration at Shearith Israel, she married him in 1922. The couple lived on Spence Street and later bought a home on Park Row, then built a home on Larchmont in University Park. Their son Stacy attended Highland Park High School and Tulane Medical School, later settling in Minneapolis. Sam had come from Warsaw, Poland, peddled bananas by horse and wagon in Waco, entered the junk business, and later ran an automobile accessories store and a plumbing supply business in Dallas.
Lillian maintained a strictly kosher, Orthodox home throughout her life and cared for her mother, who lived with her for eleven years. She served on the Shearith Israel Sisterhood board for about forty years, taught Sunday school for fifteen years, and was treasurer of Hadassah. She was a life member of many organizations including Hadassah, Pioneer Women, the Eastern Star, and both Shearith Israel and Tiferet Israel Sisterhoods. She recalled hosting rabbis, cantors, and visiting emissaries from Israel, and counted opera singer Richard Tucker as a personal friend. After Sam's death, she married Albert Butler around 1974. She witnessed decades of change in Dallas, from segregated streetcars to seeing a Black woman serve as a judge, and the shift of the Jewish community from South Dallas to North Dallas.
Full Transcript
We are talking to Mrs. Al Butler, Lillian Roback Butler. We are talking to Lillian Roback Butler. It is May the 29th, 1980. And Mrs. Butler, how long have you lived in Dallas? Fifty-eight years. So then you came to Dallas in... In 1921. That's it, 1921. 58 years old. Are you the first generation in the United States? Where were your parents from? Kiev, Russia. And were you born in Russia or were you born? One year old when I came here to America. And where were you born? In what city? You were born in Russia, but where did you come from? I'm sorry. Where did you come to in the United States?
Do you know? Where did the boat land? In New York. And then how did your parents come to Texas? Through my family, through their family who lived in Texas. My father's family lived in Mineral Wells and Fort Worth and they bought in Omaha, Nebraska. where my grandfather was still living and he lived in Minowells with my aunt Mrs. Ringle who was my father's sister and Harry Hoffman was my his brother who lived in Fort Worth and then in Omaha He had a sister who also, what's her name? Oh yeah, Freeden, Mrs. Freeden. That was my father's sister. and they bought my father and my brother and then later my mother came with three girls my two sisters and myself and then she had two girls in America.
Do you know what year your father came to the United States? I'm sorry. That's alright. What year did you come to the United States? You came with your mother then to the United States? One year later. My father sent for us one year after he arrived here. Okay, when did you come? In America? I don't know. It would probably be in the 1900s I imagine. Alright, early 1900s. Yes. May I ask you how old you Well, I'm 75. Okay. Okay. So that would be about 1904, 1903 that he came. Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, why did he come at the time? Was there any particular reason that he came to join his sister in the United States?
Was there any circumstance? Well, it was during the immigration when they all left Europe, you know, during the pogroms. And that's when my mother was in a pogrom, and her mother put her in a panty, wrapped her, sold her in a panty in a boredom, you know, attic. And when the Pogromnets came in, they were trying to find it to kill, you know. They saved it. What is a parony? A parony is a feather quilt. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I see. Well, then after they came to New York. He had on my mother's side, my uncle, they went to Philadelphia and they came here from Philadelphia.
They went to Omaha, direct to Omaha and they lived there all their life. In Omaha, Nebraska. And your aunts then how did they get to Texas Do you know why people came to Texas I guess it was during the pogroms when they came They were here a long time already before my father came How many years? I don't know. I see. I see. I see. Now then, when they came to Monroe Wells, did they stay there a long time? Or did they... My... Your father and your mother. Oh no, my mother and father went right direct to Omaha, Nebraska. my aunt lived in Minowells Mrs.
Ringgold and my grandfather lived in Minowells with my aunt and then my uncle came to Fort Worth and he lived in Fort Worth Harry Hoffman then I had an uncle in Waco, Texas and then I had an aunt in Omar okay when you came Where was your father living? Was he still in mineral wells? No, my father never lived in the mineral wells. He lived in Omaha. He went direct to Omaha. And from Omaha, where did he go? He always lived in Omaha. Lived all his life in Omaha. Where did you grow up? In Omaha, Nebraska. Okay, I'm sorry. Yeah. Okay, I was understood. Okay, then how did you get to Texas?
Well, in 1921, I came to visit my sister, Mrs. Lewis Aldish. Okay. And it was during the summer, and she said, and I said, Lil, how would you like to spend the winter here? It was mild, and Omaha was, you know, snow and ice. And so I came in 21 and I worked for a, it was a hospital supply house in Omaha. I was already working as secretary. So I had a letter of introduction to this man who knew my boss. and he says, oh, he says, will you stay here? I couldn't make up my mind, so you're not taping this. Well, go ahead. He says, oh, are you planning to stay here?
I says, well, I don't know. He says, my secretary is getting married. Please, he says. See I was familiar with hospital supplies and dental supplies And he said will you come and work for me Stay here You got a job He offered me $125 a month, and I was getting $100. So I spent the winter here, 1921, and it was simchastere. and my sister took her two little girls to Shelf, Shelf Israel, from the Simcha Stare. And while I was there, Sam Roback came up to me. He says, aren't you a stranger here? And I said, yes. So he said, after the Simcha Stare, would I go downtown with him and South Climan and Samoa?
and we'll get something to eat. And I thought, well, I asked Hannah, and she said, sure, go ahead. It's a nice Jewish boy. And that's how, the following year I got married and stayed here. What about your husband? How did he get to Dallas, do you know? Well, he was from Warsaw, Poland, and it was during the, oh, he was of age, he was in the Yashibi, and he was at the age where he would have to be a soldier. and his father didn't want him to be a soldier. He says, my kin, go to America. Well, he didn't know America, so he decided, he said, I don't want you to be a sold-out.
It was during, you know, the Russians, and he was in Warsaw, Poland, and he says, when he came to America, the first world war broke out. He went to Waco. and he decided to enlist because they told him if he enlists, then he won't have to, maybe when he's drafted, it won't be so bad for him. So while he enlisted, I think the war was over. And he got his ship papers. And he lived in Waco for, oh, I don't know how many years. Then he decided to come to Dallas. It was too small. But when he came to America, he couldn't speak English, so he went to pedal bananas with a horse and wagon for Mr.
Banks. and then later he went in the junk business in Waco and after the war things got bad so he decided to come to Dallas and that's how I made it I see what is the extent of your Jewish education well I never went to Hebrew school but we had a good Jewish home and we went to Shul, Yontif and our home was very, very Orthodox. A good Jewish background. Did you speak Yiddish in the home? Did your parents speak Yiddish too? Oh yeah, we spoke Yiddish but my mother used to say kinder a lot, speak English Yiddish Masha Then after my father died, I decided that I didn't want my mother living.
And I was the only one that kept kosher because I kept strictly, strictly kosher. And my mother came to live with me on Pacquo, and she lived with me 11 years until she passed away. Now, you came to Dallas as an adult then. How old were you when you came to Dallas? About 19. Yeah. And where did you live when you came to Dallas? On Hickory Street, 2408 Hickory. That's right. And how long did you live on Hickley Street? Until I got married and then I lived on Sprint Street And from Sprint Street we bought the home on Park Road About what year was that We must have lived on Sprint Street a year.
I married in 22 and then we bought the house in 24 I think. I lived across the street from hell. And we lived there until Stacy was six years old. He was 33, he's 39. And then we built our home on Larchmont University Park. And Stacy went to Highland Park High School and went to Tulane Medical. Now that was in the 40s then? Yeah. 40, well went to high school then. Highland Park. Highland Park in the late 40s. Yeah. About 48, 49. And that's when you went to, that's when you built then in the late 40s? Yeah we built up a home on Watchmont, I got a picture of it.
And we lived there until Stacy went to medical school and then we moved because Sam was sick and it was double story. I had an elevator in the house but we moved on Bandura when they first started building the luxury apartments and Lewis Hexter built this brand new apartment on Bandera. I lived there 19 years. Now about what year did you move there? Oh God I don't know. I have to look back because Stacy graduated. Wait I can tell you. So that means that you would have lived in the house in Larchment until about 1960 and then moved to Bandera and lived there and then you bought this house.
No, no. I lived there until I got married to Albert Butler. Okay, and then how long ago? Six years Okay so 74 Yeah Okay that very good I lived in there Nice So you seen the change from the South Alice community to the North Alice community there Oh, yeah. And then we lived in University Park until Stacy graduated. Yes. She went through Bradfield and Highland Park and Junior High, you know when they had Junior I know if you remember that, on High School Avenue. Yes, yes, yes. What was your secular schooling like? Me? Yes, you. Well, in Omaha, I went through high school, and I went through, I took a business course, stenographic course.
That's how I got to be secretary. What do you... Right hand and tight, yeah. Did you have any courses after you came to Dallas? No. Any schooling you were through with all of your formal education? No, I was secretary the first year I married. I was secretary for Sheriff Israel Sisterhood. And I was with them 40 years on the board. and Hadassah was treasure for about 20 or 20, I guess, 15, 20 years. What, Nate, you said that you grew up in a very orthodox home. Strictly. All right, and what about your home as you made it? Strictly orthodox. Strictly orthodox. Strictly kosher. Mm-hmm. kosher, strictly orthodox.
What about the observance of Jewish holidays? Very, very rigid and Sam never worked on Shabbos. He was a God being shul and he went to shul and during his years of being in business he never worked on Shabbos. Was that how unusual was that in comparison to the rest of the camp? Right away After you know we I was telling Al we had a place of business when we first married It was during the Depression 1929 when we were across the street on Commerce Street from the old post office 1710 Commerce And then later we went in the plumbing supply business, and when he was able financially to have the luxury of going to shore, he was a gobby, he went every Shabbos, even though our business was open.
You follow me? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Did many of the members of the shul go to shul on Chavez in those days? Yes, the old timers, all of them. Uh-huh. So they were fairly traditional at that time. Oh, yes. What was the service like in those days? It was very, it leaned more to orthodoxy than conservative. Was there any English in the service or was it all in Hebrew? Oh yeah, it was an English and Jewish prayer book. A Hebrew prayer? Yeah. Did people bring their own, my sorry, did they bring their own prayer books? No, no, never. Never? Not in Champs or, you know, in the Apples they do.
Yes, yes, yes. What about the speeches that the rabbi made? Do you remember if they were also in English or were they sometimes in English? Oh, no, they were in English. But the Hebrew school that Stacy went to was the old Hebrew school, the city-wide Hebrew school. Yes, Hebrew school of balance. Yes. Well, let's talk about the services and observance. Are you still as Orthodox? Have you always, as you always have been? Well, Have you changed over the years? No. I'm still orthodox. I mean, of course, for sure, there's more conservative than it was because today, with the young people growing up, they have to be.
And when Sam was, there were more his age group that will mark, you know, orthodox. Mm-hmm. What was the Rosh Hashanah service like, for example? At Park Avenue, it was... During the Reverend Kaplan's days, it was real, you know, orthodox. About how late did the service last? Did it last later than it does today? During Rush and Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur, we were there all day. Yes, Rush and Shanna. Rush and Shanna was like it is today. It was maybe 1, 2 o'clock. I don't remember. okay that's okay yeah that's all right yeah what about the choir do you remember the choir oh yeah we had a beautiful choir with reverend caplan his son david berkman i forgot were they all boys all men in the boys oh yeah beautiful with reverend caplan yes yes do you see change over the years in the choir what are some of the changes you've seen oh well we didn't have women and i remember rabbi annis and to for this one they were on grand avenue yes rabbi annis yes yes Yes, yes.
What about Simchastore, for example? Well, I was Sunday school chairman, and I always took care of the children on Simchastore. All during the years when I was Sunday school, I taught Sunday school in Sheriff Israel for 15 years. during the time that Lewis Siegel and Julius Goldman was but Lewis Siegel was chairman yeah the man what was the religious school like in those days the Hebrew school on Sunday Sunday we talked the Bible we had heard very strictly to the Bible do you remember what the assemblies were like? of the children of the Sunday school yeah it was pertaining to the portion that we had studied that day on the Sunday portion you talk about it on the Sundays Have you changed your affiliation through the years at all I have not.
Do you ever hold double membership to any of the synagogues? I'm a life member at Tafair Fisrael. I'm a life member of Sisterhood of Tafair Fisrael. We have two permanent seats at Teferith Israel when they built the shore in North Dallas. And I have, we used to go to Teferith Israel, but our main, and my main affiliation is Sheriff Israel. Was there any particular reason that you went to Teferith Israel when you went to Teferith Israel? Because it was more Orthodox than Sherry. Yeah. Did you go on all of the holidays at the fair? No. No, we went to Sherry on Yom Tavum. But during the week sometimes on Shabbos, I used to go with Sam and I later went too.
I forgot the... well, of course, Annis never was in the new shul. Yes, yes, yes, yes. He was on Grand Avenue, that's true. Yes, I grabbed Annis. He was on Grand Avenue, yes. Yes, of course. Very good friend of ours. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Did you walk to shul on Rosh Hashanah? Oh, yes. Was that one of the reasons, perhaps, that you were at the fair as well? No, we walked to Sheriff Israel. From Park Row you walked on Roshan and Yom Kippur? Oh, yeah, we never rode Roshan and Yom Kippur, never. That was a long walk, wasn't it? Yeah, but it was beautiful because everybody walked from Park Row, Roshan and Yom Kippur, people that belonged to Sheriff Israel, and it was, we enjoyed it.
We never rode. What are some of the organizations? You mentioned the Auxiliary of Cherith Israel and Hadassah. I the kinder women I belong to Benavith Ort I a life member of the Eastern Star 50 years life member I'm a life member of Hadassah. I'm a life member of Sherry's or Sisterhood. I'm a life member of Tephev's or Sisterhood. I'm a life member of the neighborhood women. I think that's it. What is it? Pioneer Women. You mentioned Pioneer Women. Oh, yeah. Yes. What are some of your cultural affiliations and your civic affiliations? Oh, we belong to the symphony and we belong to the civic. They used to have the civic music for years.
And then they had a farm that Rabbi Wise came here, and Rabbi Abab Hillel Silver, and they were very dear friends of ours, and they used to come to my home to eat. And that open farm was held every Sunday in the McFarland Auditorium of SMU. About what year was that? Do you remember? What years did they come? In the 40s perhaps? Yeah. And then we belonged to the symphony when I was at McFarlane. I still belonged until I got married to the symphony. But of course we don't go now, but we belonged to the Symphony for God. And what else? Civic Music River for the Opera, of course.
And Richard Tucker, you know, I got to, Richard Tucker was a very dear friend of ours, and when he came during the opera, he'd come over to the house. And after the opera, he would we would have a dinner at late at 12 o'clock and I'd have the rabbis and the chasen and friends come in. He was a very very and I visited him in his home in Great Neck New York In fact I still send in memory of him now He was a very, very personal friend. I should give you some programs he gave me. Yes. Now, what type of housing? You talked about where you lived over the years.
What type of housing did you always live on a, were they single family units? Oh yeah, I lived in a cottage. Now on Spence Street I lived in a duplex when we first got married. Do you remember the address on Spence? 3711. Do you remember the cross streets about where it would be? Also Colonial. Colonial and Warren, Colonial and Metropolitan, in that area? I guess so, yeah. Did you have any of your family living with, you said your mother lived with you? I met my sister that got married, Bertha Burke. Ah, okay. Tell me about when she lived with you. She met me in 1932-3 with Dr.
Honey Burke from Ennis, Texas. Mm-hmm. Did she live with you for a long time? Until she got married. She lived with me when my mother came here. She was single, and she came and lived with me until she married. I think she lived with me either a year or two. My sister, Mrs. Lewis Onish, lives across, lives on Park Quote at 30, 30 something, 30, 32. Yes. That's Edmund Onish, you know. And so then your other sister lived with you for that period of years. Did you have any other relations that lived with you over the years? Now, well you mentioned that your husband, or your first husband, Mr.
Roback, I love Shalom, was in the plumbing business, no first in the, first in the automobile accessories and we had a store at 1710. Commerce Street, where it was across the street from the old post office where the Mercantile Bank is now. And then later, by what years was that? I married in 22. I guess we were there until 25. And then? And then he went into the plumbing supply business on 2800 Ross Avenue. And later, oh, this is interesting. I've got, I should get, later we bought the block on San... You started to tell me about the block on the expressway, on San Jacinto.
We bought, okay, are you ready? Yeah. We bought the block of Santa, Santa, and Ross, and we sold it to the Texas Highway Department where they were going to build the central expressway. And my husband, who was skeptical at the time, thinking that he would never see the Central Expressway, sat on the dais with Will Rogers, who was mayor at that time. I've got a program if you'd want. Yes, yes. Let's see, then that was over near Pearl Street. Oh, no. Sanders, Cinder, and Ross. It's Sanders, Cinder, and Ross. They both run parallel to each other. No, they don't. Not Pearl. Not Ross and San Jacinto?
No. No, not Pearl. Okay. San Jacinto and Ross. And we later sold it to the... McAtee had a, like, cement. McAtee. And he was a roofer. and he moved and decided that he needed larger quarters so we bought it from about that whole block there About what year was that being Well but we had our business Our business was at 2800 Ross Avenue. See, that's where we started, in the plumbing supply business. What did Mr. Roback do before he came to the United States? He was a Chevy. Oh, you said that. That's right. Sure, he was out in Jimmy Baca with a kaput and a yarmulke and a strimal, and he didn't even know how to speak English, so he had to pedal.
And he went to pedal for Mr. Banks, and all he knew what to say was 2004 quarter and the bananas, and he went to Denton, Texas, where the school for girls were standing in front there and sell bananas. And he had a horse and wagon. Was he a chasad? You said he wore a strinal and a capote. Was he a chasad? Yeah, sure. And I'll tell you, while I'm talking, he was very, very gallant. because all through his life he never stopped studying and when he passed away in his library were 1,200 books of rare Yiddish editions that he had acquired all through the years and that was his life, that library.
and I gave a lot of the books to Akiba Academy, to Sheriff Israel, to Tepeth Israel, and some I sent to my children. See, I have still those I'm sending to. Yes. Has there been any intermarriage in the family? No. What were some of the things you've seen in the Jewish community that have changed over the years? Well when I came here we had streetcars and we rode on the streetcar I wasn used to riding on the streetcar and sitting in the front and it said for colored only in the back. And it was a nickel. The streetcars were five cents, and the colored had to drink out of different fountains.
And I wasn't used to it because in Omaha, we went to integrated schools. So when I came here, it was a complete... Now, you can cut that off. I'll tell you something that recently happened. Let's go back to when you came to Dallas, though, and how your reaction was about the black situation in the back of the bus. Well, I... How about the Jewish community? Oh, go ahead. I got to tell you, it's interesting. I happened to be involved in something that I had to be at the city, at the courthouse. And this, well, I'll turn it off. It's not interesting, but I'll tell you.
All right. You were at the courthouse. Yeah, and I had to be at this courthouse, and it was something that I happened to be involved in. And as I came into the courtroom, I saw a colored woman, a judge. About what year was that? This. Now? This year. Oh, okay. Yeah. Last year. 79? Yeah. After the proceedings in the hall of the courthouse, because I knew I couldn't talk to her during the proceedings, I stopped her and I said this is the greatest thrill I've ever had in my life one of the highlights of my life to think I lived to see a colored woman a judge in Dallas Texas because when I came here 58 years ago the conductor on the streetcar made me I sat in the back of the streetcar and he said to me, you have to move.
I said, why? He said can you leave It says for color only And I told that judge to think that I live to see a woman a colored judge in Dallas Texas What was her response? She was so excited about it, she kissed me. That's great. To think I would tell her that. That's very interesting. It's interesting. Yes. What about the Jewish community? Well, the Jewish community was South Delos. Wendelkin, Colonial, Park Row, and they had the Shul. And they were very active in Shul, the old timers. What about the Templeants? Well, Temple Emmanuel, it was during the Council of Judaism, and Rabbi Lefkowitz was involved and of course Sam being so active in the Zionist organization he couldn't accept it but many of our even members of Sheriff Israel who belonged to Temple Emanuel not members of well they were I don't want to say who it was was members of the Council for Judaism, like Harry Cohn, who couldn't speak English yet.
Did they know what they were joining when they joined the Council of Judaism? Yes, thanks. Were they aware of the politics of the Council of Judaism? So that was a very trying time in Dallas. Yes. And while Rabbi Lefkowitz was a wonderful man, he might have had pressure from his members to join but many of the members who belonged to Temple Manuel were from Sheth Israel from the Orthodox but a lot of them at that time were the real, you know, like Dreyfus and the Cairns and the Paulstones and the Tobians and the Tobians. So I lived through many, too many crises, I call it.
Now the people that were Shareth Israel people that were members of Temple, were these first generation as well, or were these kids that joined Temple and still retained their membership? No, they were the old generation. And yet they were members of Temple Emmanuel at that time? No. You said some had dual memberships in Shareth Israel and in Temple. No, no. Oh, all right. No, they all belonged to Temple. At that time, they didn't belong to Shareth Israel. Well, maybe, no, they still belonged to Temple, like Harry Cohn. Okay. They were born to Temple Manuel. All right, and then they had left Sheriff Israel as well.
Well, they probably never born to Sheriff Israel. Okay, okay, so you're saying that they had come to Europe, from Europe, and yet were brought up in Orthodox. Yeah, they didn't even know how to speak English. And yet they joined Temple. Okay, okay, now I understand. Today, the younger generation belongs to Temple. Yes, yes, yes. Not too many of the old timers. Yes, yes, I see. Okay. What were some of the other things that you've seen? The changes in the past. Well, let's talk about the Jewish community in the 40s and the bitterness of the Council of Judaism and the Zionists. Well, the Zionists, the Zionists were so strong, and they were very resentful of this.
How did it have its effect in federation? Or was there an effect in Jewish federation? Well, Jewish federation, when I came here, the federation wasn't really in existence. of the old people's home was on, I cooked many, you can put this on, many a pot of kosher chicken soup and took it to the old people that were on South Boulevard in an old house that they had a few Jewish men. The Federation later became in existence when the X Club on Pocahontas oh no it wasn on Pocahontas Pocahontas later became the federation Before that time there was, when I came here there was no Jewish federation.
Was there a community service in some form? No. The Federation wasn't in existence. And later when the X Club, which was a party club, they turned it over, later became the YMCA. YMHA. YMCA. Pardon me, go ahead. And the old timers like the Glaciers, like, he's dead now, Max Glacier, and a few of the old pioneers formed the Federation. let's see who else first it became the YMCA and even Sam I have a picture oh yeah I should give it to you of all the first officers of the YMCA and they raised money to wasn't it YMHA YMHA YMHA I'm sorry not a Christian, no.
YMHA. And they raised money to they had a minstrel. Okay. And they raised money and built a gymnasium. Okay. And called it the YMHA. And that was on Pocahontas Street. It was originally the Elks Club. Let me give you that picture. Okay. Okay. All right. What about the YMHA then? What were some of the activities? Well, they had the regular gymnasium, mostly with gymnasium. Now on Yontif, like during the USO, we fed the soldiers, we didn't discriminate against the Christians and Jews but it was during Yontif where the Jewish women the sheriff Israel would cook the food and bring it to Pocahontas and we served them I worked on it and served the food to the Jewish soldiers Now this was in the 40s, early 40s during the war?
Yeah, during the war years. 42, 43 and 44? Yeah. About those years, 45? Yeah, the USO. And whenever, a lot of times on Sunday, we'd have, the Jewish woman would cook the food and bring it up there. We'd bring it up there and they would serve the soldiers. What about home hospitality during those years when the soldiers came in for the weekends? Do you remember how they were? I don't remember. I guess they had a home. Now, those were some of the activities. What about the funding, the collection of funds then? Federation was still in the building. Well, the federation, there was no federation. But I remember when Sam Miller, who was the grandfather of Henry Miller, Jr., used to come and collect for Sheriff Israel dues.
What were the dues of Sheriff Thistle at that time? I think they were five dollars a month, a dollar a month, a dollar and a half a month. Now that was in the early 20s, early 20s. Yes, right. 22, 21. And he used to come and collect dues. I remember he used to come to the store at Commerce Street and Sam would give him the Jewish papers. We, you know, the Journal and the Morning Journal and the Tog and Sam belonged to all the, you know. And he was the treasurer of the show then, Sam Miller. He was a collector, Not treasure. Not treasure? No.
How did that system work? I mean did they volunteer? They paid them so much for collecting the dues. And then later Kozakowski remember he collected Mr Kozakowski Sure Yes See that going back I remember he used to come in and Sam would give him special articles They'd cut out of the Jewish paper that were interesting and they'd exchange the articles. What about some of the other organizations that have grown in institutions? Well, tell me about the Hebrew school. Well, the Hebrew school of Mr. Levine, I remember Levine. Yes. And he was very antagonistic. If a boy belonged to the Boy Scouts, he would let him come to the Hebrew school with his uniform on it.
Now, was that the Boy Scouts or the ROTC and the schools, the military? No, it was the Boy Scouts. Maybe it was the ROTC, I think it was. ROTC, yeah, you're right. Yes, yes, the ROTC, yes. Do you remember when that Hebrew school came about, the Hebrew School of Downs, and what, do you remember anything about the circumstances? Well, Levine antagonized a lot of people because that's all I, but I'll tell you one thing that later Pinky Silverman, he took over and he was during the time that Stacy went to Hebrew school. And we used to meet at the higher school, the Hebrew school, and I used to show for the kids and take them there.
Now, wasn't that also during the days of the Hebrew School of Dallas? There was a change of organization there in 1945. And then when the exodus that we moved to North Dallas, they couldn't go to South Dallas. They had a Hebrew school. Oh yeah, I gotta tell you something interesting. Stacy went pre-Kittagarden to Hetzel Heiko Tamatari and to Fereth Israel. Remember? Agurizachem. Agurizachem. Oh yeah, we belong, we were members of Agurizachem, I forgot. Is there any special reason you belong? Yeah, because it was a very Orthodox and we liked Rabbi Abramowitz, very dear friend of ours. That's her. You remember, you're doing fine. Do you remember what the program was like at the Herzchakel when Stacy was in the kindergarten?
Sure, it was all Yiddish, you know, Hebrew. Did they learn any Yiddish at all or just the Hebrew? The Hebrew. The Hebrew, okay. And was it a full day or a half a day? Yeah, I think it was. The bus would pick them up. Did they have English as well? I think so, yeah. I had some programs. I don't know why they did it. Well, maybe you'll find the programs. What about the people keeping kosher in the community? Oh, yeah. Sam Fromm? Oh, sure. And then I remember Golden. Golden when I lived in South Dallas. It was Golden. And I think there was Abamson later opened the kosher.
But I, we, most of the time was Sam Fromm. Until he closed, I took me from until he closed his market. I love his lane. Yes. How was it keeping kosher in the early days? Well, for me it was very easy. I had Milch, Fleschick, and Parby. Did you have to come to? They used to deliver the meat to the house. Did you have to kosher your own meats? No. Oh, yeah. Oh, sure. Chickens, too. And have to open up the chickens. Sure. Did the sheikh come to you? Oh, the sheikh came to us. Fromm, the old man Fromm used to come to the house for 15 cents or was it 10 cents and shag the chicken and then what would happen?
5 cents, yeah did he flick them or did you flick oh I had to flick them And shmali Flicking is plucking a chicken then is it Yes, right. For those who may not understand, yes. What was it like to prepare for a holiday? It was a beautiful event. And I want to say that Stacy's and Donna's home is just like mine was. And I'll tell you what Stacy said about Yontif and Shabbos. Mother, I love Yontif and I love Shabbos because it's always so beautiful. Are they as traditional as you were? Stacy is traditional in his home today. Yeah, they belong to a traditional shul, Adathia Shulam, the same as us, Sheriff Israel.
And the children go to Hebrew school. They have a beautiful Hebrew school system there. Separate from all the shuls, it's citywide. And that's in Minneapolis. Yeah. Yes, that is reputation of being one of the finest. All in the country. Yes. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about some of the things in Dallas, back to the Jewish community of the 40s now, and when you saw a shift in the neighborhood. Do you know why people started moving from South Dallas? Do you have any ideas? To North Dallas. Yes. I think it was during the time that the colored people were taking over some of the South Dallas residences.
In fact, don't turn that on. But I remember we sold our home to a Jewish, to the power cops. when we sold our home we wouldn't sell it to colored people but we sold to Jewish people with Mr. and Mrs. Pollock well of course that was later than all of the black people started moving again completely but there was movement sure they were already trying to invade South Dallas the colored government What about the kids going to school in observance as far as school was concerned We never went down the young table to school. They were very, very, in my home, of course. Yes. Did Stacey have any problems as far as the school was concerned with staying home on the holidays?
No, none. Did a lot of Jewish kids stay home? All the Jewish kids. What about holidays like Pesach and Sukkot and Shkukot? Yontavim, the only time that if it was Yontiv, like Pesach fell on the, you know, Yontiv, he'd stay home. But Chalamez he went to. Yeah, but like the Sukkot and Shkukot, a lot of the kids today go to school. Did you feel that a lot of kids went to school? He stayed home, I think. Were there any other things? Oh, tell me about the Jonathan Club. Well, the Jonathan Club, I'll let Al tell you about the Jonathan Club because he was president and Sam was president of the Jonathan Club.
What are some of the activities that the ladies' auxiliary did at Sheriff Israel in the 30s when you were very young? We had a study group, a Bible class, and we took care of charities. We had beautiful programs, Jewish programs. I should have saved you. I think I gave it to you. And all the holidays, we had beautiful. And I'm a chairman of programs for many years. They were very, very observant. Do you have any idea offhand about how many children were there at the Sheriff's religious school at that time? I couldn't tell. Well, I'm sure we had them as far as reports are concerned.
Are there any other things that you can think of that you need to add offhand about organizations, about the shul, about people? Hadassah. We used to climb steps in those years to get a quarter for the blue boxes and for the, we always had a push gear in the house and the Mishulahs how do you say the name Mishulahs those who were sent from Israel Yeah all came to my home and there were many many Mishillachs What do you call them in English? Representative, in those days it was Palestine, because someone who was sent is the literal translation. Yeah, from Palestine. And everybody that came to Dallas, the Meshillocks all came to my home.
They would stay? No, they'd come over and eat. And the Federation at that time would give them lodging for the night. I think at the YMCA. But we had the Meshillocks in the years. Did a lot of the Jewish businessmen contribute to the charities that the Mashiach would do? Oh yeah, Ike Zablosky was the greatest, Ike Zablosky, and of course in those years, until Sam died, they used to come. But what types of charities were they collecting from? Or rather far, were they collecting for schools? Yeah, they always say they have to have a dach in the school. That's a root. Every time they came.
And, of course, with the kinderlach, you know. And even today I send to many, many Jewish organizations, like in Israel in Baltimore. and I sent to a lot of the old that Sam always contributed to. Were some of the Mishalachim sent from the United States as well as from Israel? Most of them were from America. From what cities? From New York. Okay, from the, for you, Shiloh's then in New York? Yeah, sure. Okay, okay, okay. The Mishalachs, I had every one. We had them all. What about, you talked about the blue boxes, the JNF, the Karen Kayamek. Was this only from Hadassah? Oh, no, that was JNF.
That wasn't connected with Hadassah. Jewish National Farm. Yes, but that's one of the projects of Hadassah. Yeah, and we always had a pushki in the house. and that was for the charities for Israel always had a pushki even my mother's days we had a pushki every home had a pushki we put a couple on Friday night when we benched Licht we put a couple pennies in the pushki because those years was that done in many homes? I think most of the real Orthodox people had a push key. What about on Yom Kippur? Were there special offerings made before? Oh yeah, we used to have an appeal for the Hebrew school every year, every year.
What are some of the other things that you could think of that happened in those days? Well, I know young Kipper was very observant. I mean we kept it in my home was real real Orthodox During all my married life What you talked about the depression a little bit what was it like during the depression? It was very very