Lillian Zapruder
Lillian Zapruder was born in New York City at number one Essex Street, the middle of four children born to Jewish immigrants from Russia. One sister died at age two, and Lillian remained close to her surviving brother and sister. Her father was a bookbinder, and the family, though poor, was hardworking. They moved to Brooklyn when Lillian was a baby, and she grew up there among Jewish and Italian neighbors. Because her parents could not afford to send her to high school, she attended elementary school and later took night courses in French and mathematics while working during the day, describing herself as largely self-educated.
Lillian first trained as a secretary and worked in that field until she lost her job during the Depression, after which she found she was better suited to retail sales, working in a children's shop. She met her future husband in the same building where she lived; their parents had known each other in Russia. They married when she was nineteen, and she stopped working to raise their two children, a daughter, Myrna, and a son, in Brooklyn. In 1941 the family moved to Dallas when her husband, a production man in ladies' garments, was offered a good opportunity in Texas. After a brief time in Oak Cliff, they settled in South Dallas to be among the Jewish community.
In Dallas the family joined Temple Emanu-El so their children could receive a Jewish education, and Lillian remained a devoted, traditional member who valued family, love, and Judaism. She was active in the Federation, Sisterhood, and USO fundraising during the war, and became known for her cooking and baking, especially bread and challah for her cherished weekly Friday night family dinners. Her husband, Abraham Zapruder, an amateur photographer whose building stood opposite the Texas School Book Depository, filmed the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963 with his home movie camera. Lillian described the traumatic day, the processing of the film at the Eastman Kodak lab, and the Warren Commission's investigation. In her later years she was a founding member of the YES group, Young Energetic Seniors, at the Jewish community center, and had seven grandchildren.
Full Transcript
This morning I'm sitting here with my boss's mother Lillian Zapruder and we're just going to talk a little bit about life. Lillian, good morning. How are you? I'm very well. Lillian, with all my interviewees I always say, New, let's start at the beginning. For you, I'm sure the beginning is much different than many of my interviewees who said I was born in a town in Poland, I was born here. Where were you born? New York. You're a New Yorker. Ah, you're number two of my New Yorker. Did you grow up in New York, Lillian? I lived in New York and was married there until 1941.
Okay. He came to Dallas. All right. What kind of a family were you born into? Middle class? What kind of business was your dad in? You know, what was the situation? I was called middle class. I was, well, they were immigrants. Where did they come from? And they came from Russia. And they had one child. I was already married and brought my sister here. And she was just a few months old. And I was born in New York on number one, Essex Street. Ah, Essex Street. I love Essex Street. All right, number one, Essex Street. How many children were in the family? We were four.
I lost a sister at the age of two years old, so we remained three. My sister and brother are still alive. My brother is younger than I am. I'm a middle child. What did your dad do for a living? He was a bookbinder. A bookbinder? Yeah, me dad. Not a very good living. And we managed to scrape along with him. Tell me something about growing up on the Lower East Side in Essex Street. I didn't grow up in the Lower East Side. I was just born there and we moved to Brooklyn when I was a baby by Keanu. And I lived in Brooklyn for the rest of it until I came to Dallas Okay Brooklyn was obviously a very Jewish the area you lived in was it very Jewish A lot of Jewish people I was I think so I wouldn say completely Jewish there were other ethnic groups in the area like Italians I went to school with many Italian people What do you remember about school, the public school, going with your, you know, any remembrances of those early years?
They were pleasant. It was nice. I made some very good friends. In fact, I'm still friends with one of my schoolmates. We lived in the same building and we grew up together. She moved away. She moved quite a distance from me. But we'd get together every weekend, and we'd still remain friends. Her name is Alice Feld. She has a very famous son. He's a choreographer, Elliot Feld. And we have kept up with each other all through the years. That's wonderful. In fact, I just came back from New York, and I spent a good deal of time with her. And this is a girl that you grew up with?
Yeah, I grew up with. In Brooklyn? In Brooklyn. That's really very nice. Did you have any, like, did you belong to any Jewish youth groups or social clubs or what did the kids do or how did they do? No, they just played out on the streets of New York. Okay. They just played out. That's right. Okay. And when you. There were no groups. When you got older, like teenagers and you started going out, what did you used to do? Did you used to go to the beach? did you used to you know what did you kids do for socializing socialized with each other visited each other and then i don't know went to basketball games the usual things dances when i got a little bit older were most of your friends also like yourself parents were immigrant parents and you You were sort of the first generation American in the area, in Brooklyn?
I'd say yes. Okay. Did you work when you got out of high school? I didn't go to high school. My parents were too poor to send me through school. I went to elementary school, went to high school at night and worked during the day. I went to a commercial school first to learn how to be a secretary And I worked as a secretary until the Depression and then lost my job and I took a job as a salesperson saleswoman I was better in sales than I was in the office, so I was quite happy about that. So you never had the opportunity of high school, you took it at night?
That's right. Did you finish it? No. It's very difficult to go to school at night. It takes many, many years. I know, and working during the day. And working during the day. So I just took courses in French and mathematics. And that's all. Have you ever wanted to go back and then catch up or finish up? Or do you feel that life and experience is just as much an education? No, I wasn't that gung-ho on education. So I learned it. by myself. Okay. I'm self-educated. Listen, I have met some marvelous self-educated people. Well, I'll tell you, the public, I think the elementary schools in my day was very thorough.
We had a very, very good education. And I didn't feel the need. I really didn't. I had marvelous teachers. And we had a very good schooling, an excellent schooling. All right. So you said you were a secretary until the Depression, and then you became a salesperson. What area of sales did you go into? In the children's shop. Okay. Retail. In retail. At what stage of this, how old were you when you went into the retail, from secretary to retail? In other words, which was that? I was about 17, 18 years old. Okay. And when and how did you meet your husband? I like to get all these love stories on the tapes.
We lived in the same building. And we became very good friends. I've known him. I knew him when I was quite young. And I grew to love him. And we fell in love. So you lived in the same building? Our parents came from the same area in Russia. They knew each other in Russia. That's interesting. And how old were you when you got married? I was 19. You were an old lady. All right, so then you married. What did your husband do for a living? He was a production man in ladies garments Did you ever help him in the business or you were always in your own retail end of it No, he wasn't in business.
He worked for somebody else. Until we went to Dallas and he came here as a production man, worked for an artist, sportswear. and he worked there for about eight years. And then I, he went into business for himself and I helped him then. Okay. Now, where did you have your children? In New York or in Dallas? In New York, in Brooklyn. In Brooklyn. They were born in Brooklyn. What made you decide to leave New York? Or was it because of your husband? Because of my, it was during the Depression years and my husband was not happy with the job he had in New York, and he was offered a very good opportunity in Texas, and that's where we came.
So how many years have you been in Dallas? Forty. It'll be forty years in July. Forty years. What do you remember about the Jewish community when you first arrived in Dallas? It was close-knit. Most everybody lived in South Dallas, and at first we moved to Oak Cliff and I found that I'd be much more comfortable amongst my own people because Oak Cliff was... there weren't any Jewish people living there. So we moved to South Dallas and we were very happy there. We had a wonderful life. Most of the Jews that were there in the synagogues were there? We joined Temple Emmanuel So the children can get also a Sunday school education, Jewish education.
And we're still members of the temple in any way. I am, anyway. Right. And so the children were raised in the Reformed Jewish synagogue in Moab. Okay. Did you work on your own after your husband, or were you just like a mother raising your or did you go out and work into the retail area after you had the children and you moved to Dallas? Well, my children, as soon as I got married I stopped working. My husband was quite successful in his field. He had a very good job. In those years it was considered that he was earning a nice salary. I started raising my family as soon as we were married.
Myrna was born a year after I was married. And I stayed at home. I was a housewife. How many children do you have? Two. Two. A daughter and a son. Son. Okay. Were you active or interested in your husband in any organizational groups or political groups or anything along the years? We always Democrats, always. And I became very active in all the social agencies here, Federation and Temple, Sisterhood. And wherever I felt I was needed during the war, I helped quite a bit. What did you do during the war? I can't really remember exactly all the social agencies, but I did help. I remember taking silver paper and making silver balls, saving it from the gum wrappers.
Well, I did mostly fundraising in the USO and areas where I felt like I could do the most good. Okay. Did you like to travel a lot or were you able to travel in the years that the children were growing up? Do you remember taking any interesting trips? We took trips all the time, but we always traveled with our children. We never took vacations on it without the kids. That's interesting, because many people that I have interviewed said, well, we put the kids in camp and then we went on vacation. We did things together as a family. That's very nice. That's probably why there is such a nice, close feeling and relationship now that I see and observe.
Is there any trip that you remember taking with the kids that sort of stands out as more special than one another? Where did you used to go? The deal of the time, we would go to New York. Because my family was still living there. We were very family-oriented. And I would spend the summers there. It was hard to get used to that behavior at first. and I would take the kids to New York. That's really quite surprising that you go to the New Yorkies from Adelaide. Well, we would stay at a resort. In the Catskills? No at the beach Uh At the beach Brighton Beach That interesting OK and I don have to ask you about one of your children I know that Myrna has was a teacher and is now directing the senior program and doing a very good job I'm very proud of my children.
I think she's a very special person in my eyes. What about your son? I'd like to hear it from others. I like to hear it for our brothers. You can borrow him Zahalane too, that's okay. What about your son? Where is he and what's he doing? My son is in Washington, D.C. He's an attorney. He has his own firm. And he has a lovely wife and three children. And enjoys his work. I'm very proud of him. He is as I am of Murda. Wonderful. And what are you doing with yourself now? How do you fill your time? I know that you are busy with the yes group and you're always the one who's making the hamantash or whatever else is doing it.
That's my specialty. People look to me through health and cooking and that area and I've always been active in sisterhood and made myself available whenever they needed me in the kitchen. Is that what you enjoy doing? Have you always enjoyed it ever since you were married? Yes. Cooking is my specialty. Okay. So how come you didn't become a caterer? Yeah, I should. Well, because I didn't need to. My husband was a successful businessman. I was able to lead a very good life by my own. Did you ever pass this love for cooking? Did you, like Myrna, did you cook with her in the kitchen? Did you, you know, or was she not interested in that?
No, Myrna wasn't interested in it. What are some of the special things that you like to cook? It's mostly Jewish cooking. Like, is it baking or cooking? Which is your... In both areas. I cook the Jewish meals and Jewish baking, and I make lots of interesting things. Anything that I think that would be right for you, I don't know, I just cook. What about Rogelach? Do you make Rogelach? Yes I make Rogelach I make baked bread My favorite baking is bread I like baking bread Oh isn that interesting Oh yeah I very rarely buy bread I bake mostly I bake almost every week. I bake college for the Friday night.
You see, we have a traditional family life. We get together every Friday night, And I set that day aside to cook for my family. That's my family day. I don't make any other appointments with any of my friends. I don't play cards on Friday. I just enjoy the day, just looking forward for the evening. That's beautiful. I play colleagues every Friday and bring roles and whatever. And we're a traditional veteran. On a traditional Friday night supper is always served. Okay. Now, I'm going to ask, I too am very much like you in that Fridays is always a special time. And when I lived in the city with my sister, one Friday it would be at my house, and one Friday it would be at her house.
Now, I want to know, what's your menu for Friday night? After so many years, I get into a rut. You know, I always have the meatballs and the chicken soup and the chicken and the, you know. No, I don't do that. I vary it. I don't want to bore my children with the same thing every Friday night. And I'll be honest with you. I try to make the type of food. I really design the whole evening around my family. It's what they like. That's beautiful. It's not what I like. And I know their likes now. And I like that. I know their favorites. and I do that I just cook their favorites every Friday night if it's roast beef I'm going to make Yorkshire pudding because David loves Yorkshire pudding would you like another member of your mishpaka what's your address and Aaron loves most everything Aaron is precious he loves everything his grandmother makes and he's a very enthusiastic audience That's wonderful.
Great deals, chicken, or as I said, or leg of lamb. And then I pick out a vegetable that one of the kids favorite like string beans or mashed potatoes you name it Every Friday night is different That's really nice, and I'm sure the kids look forward, too, to going to their grandmothers as much as you look forward to having them. I do, I do. That's the best day of my week. Isn't that wonderful? Absolutely. That's really nice, and it's so nice. I'll tell you another thing that's nice. you've come from a sort of a reformed Jewish upbringing and a very yet your feelings are very traditional and you know the feeling usually is oh if it's reform then they don't do any of these things but what you're telling me is a very warm traditional well that's why I would resent it of people from other congregations and would say to me, you know, oh, you're Reformed, but you're more gayish than Jewish.
And I would resent that very much and I would tell them about my way of life and that I loved Judaism. And the only reason I joined the temple was because when I went to synagogues in New York, I used to go to visit my father in New York who was traditional. He was not Reformed. I never knew what was going on in the synagogues I didn't understand one word my parents were too worried they just weren't able to send me to Hebrew school to learn Hebrew they had just enough money for their son to be educated in Hebrew but not their daughters so when I came when Myrna was 7 years old I decided I wanted her to have some kind of a Jewish background and learn Hebrew and learn about our Judaism.
And also I felt like I would join the temple myself to be able to participate in their holidays and their prayer books. So that's what motivated us to join a temple so that the children could go to Sunday school and have some Jewish education. and I was very, very Jewish oriented and traditional and my thinking and my feeling about Judaism. Well, it's obviously come through, this glow on your face when you speak of Friday. That's right. That's what it's all about. Judaism is family love and giving and caring and that's important. And our grandchildren look forward to coming to my home because they know how I feel about it.
That's beautiful. And they enjoy it too. And you are passing this on and I must wish you a mazel tov for your grandson's wedding, which I hear. It was exceptional. Just the most beautiful affair. Very, very meaningful. It was, I wish everybody could have been there. It was so meaningful. Everybody joined into the spirit and the love of that evening. It was really like something. You have mixed dancing and a lot of people can't dance so they just sit back and watch the others dance. This, everybody joined in. Everybody was able to get into a circle and dance around, whether it was the Kusankala, whether it was my daughter.
It was just beautiful and they included everybody in their whole wedding party. Everybody was included. That's nice. And that feeling of love. Everybody participated. And the feeling of love will be carried on. And it started, I'm sure, in the Friday nights. I won't call you Bubba. Are you called Bubba or Grandma? No. My first grandson was Jeffrey, the one who just got married. Right. And he started calling me Nana. He couldn't say Grandma, and that stuck through the... Oh, I have seven grandchildren. Can I hear it? I have six grandsons and one granddaughter. by a flute. Are you sure it's a girl? She's half of a twin.
Okay. A boy and girl twin. And so she's my only granddaughter. And my husband said when she was born with the boy twin, he said, well, God said, in order to get a girl, you have to have a boy first. Boys are in your family, and you have to take a boy along with the girl. And boy, they are gorgeous and they're precious. That's wonderful. In our family, it's reversed. My mother-in-law had five granddaughters, and when my son came along... Oh I can imagine She said check the plumbing That wonderful Lillian there is a phase of your life that I know you experienced Yesterday, I'm sure, or the day before yesterday, it was sort of a very traumatic living through it all again.
But your husband, may he rest in peace, was he a photographer by hobby or just took pictures? It was one of his hobbies. He had many hobbies. What were his hobbies? He played piano by ear. He loved to putter in the kitchen, in the house. He had all kinds of tools. He was everything. In a home, he was a carpenter and a plumber. you name it, he was able to do most. He was able to figure out. He had lots of interests, many interests. He loved the yard, he loved to work in the yard. And photography was one of his hobbies. That happened to be one of his favorite hobbies.
We used to go to, we went to Europe many times and he had three different cameras. He was loaded down with cameras. and that's how come he was at that site with his camera. Right. I went on a trip with my husband and I used to hold the lenses as he kept changing lenses. Okay. Now, the day that President Kennedy was assassinated, he was on the street when they were driving by? Is that where he was? Let me explain to you. His building is opposite the book depository building. And when he realized that the entourage was going to pass right almost by his door, he came running home to get his camera.
And he picked up his camera and rushed right back and picked a vantage spot. right where he thought he'd be, right in front of the entourage. And he was right his back The book depository faced his back that how close he was And the shots, in fact, came over his head. He started hearing the shots. At first, he heard the first shots, and he saw the president kind of lean over, you know, and act like they do in the movies, oh my God, I've been shot. And he thought that was on for the instant because he thought it was the backfiring of the car that he heard.
The second shot he realized, which came right after he saw what happened, he had a zoom lens in his camera which brought the whole action up to his eye. He had been taking pictures the whole time he'd been hearing the shot. Oh, yeah, yes. He stayed with it. He realized almost right away that this was serious. Now, was it moving pictures? It was moving pictures. First, the shots show him waving to the crowd. It's beautiful pictures. Just a few frames of it. And then it showed him leaning over from the first shot where he was shot in his back. And then he saw the bullets go through his head.
And in his lens, he saw the brains ooze out of the presence. What did he do after? I mean, that was it. He must have been... He got so hysterical. He, it was horrible. I think he was the first one to know that the president was dead because of what he saw in the lens of his camera. And he started screaming. He's dead, he's dead. And they had to take him. He went up, he was with one of his secretaries, and he got off the ledge and went up to his office, and he was uncontrollable, absolutely uncontrollable. When I was watching television, and I heard the president was shot.
Somebody called me No I don remember exactly that detail I ran to the telephone and I called to speak to him because I knew he was right there and taking pictures and I wanted to know if he was alright And the secretary came to the phone and she said he couldn't come to the phone. I said well he must because I've got to... but he was okay. I guess Myrna told me that the secretary told him to call the FBI. Is that it? No. The secretary reminded him to go home and get his camera. She asked him if he had his camera. He said, oh, my God, look what I forgot.
So he went home to get his camera. So how did he finally get his pictures to the FBI? Because obviously his pictures were the ones that they checked and looked. Well, the story is that he was so hysterical. He knew that the president was no longer with us because of what he saw in his camera. And he had his secretary call the FBI immediately and tell them that he had taken pictures of the president and he did not know whether the pictures were the big device. It will be developed into anything, but he wanted them to have it. They ran up to his office within two seconds, because they were all milling around that whole area.
And they took him with his camera to the Eastman Kodak Company. They have a processing company on Cedar Springs. That was about 12.30 in the afternoon, or 1 o'clock. He was there until 9 o'clock at night while they were processing his film. It takes quite some time because it's a color film. During that period he kept calling us. It was Friday night. The children that day, I couldn't cook. But the children came over anyhow. My daughter and her husband and I think we were just two children. and they were babies. He kept calling us to tell us they were still processing the film and he wanted us to know that he was all right.
Why didn't they just take film and not him? Or did he insist upon going with him? Well, I'll tell you in a minute. Okay. So, they processed, when they got all through, and during that, these phone calls, he called up at one period, it was about seven or eight o'clock at night, he said, would you believe it, mine is the only film of the assassination. Hmm. Well, you can't imagine what that, it was just overwhelming to think that that was the situation. Well, when they got through processing it, they made two copies and the original. They gave my husband, they took the two copies to be sent, to be flung immediately to Washington, D.C., and they handed my husband the original film.
He says, I don't want it. He says, you can have it. He says, oh no, this film belongs to you. It is yours. And as a matter of fact, we do have some pictures of our grandchildren at the beginning of the film because he had some film in it, a used film already started in that role. And that's how come we have the original film. That's right. And then when it was word came out that we had film of the assassination, every medium in the world was at our door that night. They rang our doorbell constantly. Why did they not just say to your husband, can we have the film and we'll go to the lab and you can go home?
Because it was his film. Oh, okay. In order for him to be there and so that they can give him back his original film. Oh, all right. I thought maybe they they insisted that he had to be there with them. No. That's really something you have, so that you really have a part of history. I'm not sure that it's a part that you would have done without, obviously. In a way, it's a good thing that he was there. There would not have been anything to go by. And I want you to know that the Warren Commission really tried to do a very thorough job of investigation.
they had my husband reenact that scene many many times Many times And he been quoted in the Warren Commission he been interviewed to reenact the scene to make all the frames in his camera and also to reenact the shooting to have somebody up in their window and they reenacted the entire scene To make sure that there was nobody else involved, you see. What is your feeling? Do you feel that it was really just the one person? I certainly do. My husband felt that way. He didn't hear shots coming from any other direction. He only heard two shots. And he says he couldn't understand why it was...
Why couldn't it be just one person? Why would it have to be a conspiracy? And usually it is just one person, one nut. That's right. Look what happened to Reagan now. That's what I was going to say. I wish this would prove to people that to leave the Kennedy assassination be the investigation because they really did try to do everything possible to make the federal investigation. What were your, I'm sure, that your feelings like everyone else in the country, when Kennedy was shot, it was a disbelief and the entire country was in a feeling of depression. What were your feelings two days ago when you heard on the radio that Regan had been shot?
Yeah, it was a little shocky. I don't know. It brought back all the original memories that you had had from before? In a way, immediately, that was my first reaction. I just really, it was kind of thrown back by it. But it's happened to almost every president they're shot at. Ford was shot at. Franklin D. Roosevelt. Almost all the presidents in all of us. Do you think the gun laws should be changed in this country? Yes, I certainly do. I always have to. I do. I really think that if we had better gun laws, Less crazy people would have guns in their hands Lillian usually at the end of these taping sessions I don want to cut it short if there's anything else from the years, I see you sitting there twisting the cord, twisting the cord.
Generally speaking, I always like to say, you know, that these tapes are going to go into, we're going to try to make a file of just tapes of people that we know have been around the center and active. And someday your Jeffrey and your Aaron and those kids, when they're bigger, we're all going to go eventually. We don't have a contract for all our lives. Or when their children come in, they're going to sit here, they're going to listen to their Nana Lillian, tell a little bit about her life and about what her... They call me Nana Lil. Manalil. Is there anything you'd like to say to them about life, how you've led your life, how you'd like them to leave theirs?
Is there any advice you can give them on, hey kids, this is the way you've got to make it in life, or this is the way you've got to make it in the world? I just want them to be happy. To do the things that... To do the things that make them happy. Okay. Happiness is a very important ingredient in life. And I know that you've made Myrna happy, and she's made you. I mean, I can see the relationship between a mother and a daughter that's really amazing. If you don't answer that phone when she phones, and she doesn't know where you are, where did that mother-in-law go now?
And I'm sure the feeling is very reciprocal. Okay, Lillian, thank you for spending. We did it. Just 45 minutes, and I want to wish you much nachos in the future with the other grandsons and granddaughter. Is she the youngest, the granddaughter? Yes, she is. How old is she now? They're 11. Oh, that's nice. They're 21 years old. That's nice. So you have something, a lot of nice things to look forward to. I've also asked everybody, you're a member of the YES group, which is Young Energetic Seniors. How long have you been involved with it? Since its inception How old is it now I say it about a year and a half two years something like that What can you tell me about the Yes Group?
Does it fulfill a need for a large group? Yes, I think it did, because most people of this generation, they just, I hate to say, but they really don't like to be considered a senior citizen. You can say that. And there was a tremendous need for people to have a place to go to, to get together, even if it's just for mourning or continue on into an afternoon. Several of them have made very good friends from it. And let's face it, there's a very large percentage of senior citizens today. and especially single women especially and this gives them an outlet to come and participate in the activities and usually they're very they're always wonderful even if they're just coming to meet and sit around and visit with one another it really fills a very big need in their lives I think it really does very much in favor Well, it certainly has grown.
It has grown, and the center is a wonderful medium for them to meet and enjoy these facilities. We have these marvelous facilities. Why not use it for our community? I'm glad to hear you say that many of these people who came here have developed beautiful friendships. Yes, they have. That's really very important. You must remember that there's a lot of transients here, people coming from all over the country, and this is one way of them getting together with people of their own age and interests. They can always find somebody who will appeal to them. Right, right. Well, good. Lillian, I'm glad you're active in Yes, and I wanted you to keep up the cooking and the baking.
and when I need a recipe, I'll know where to come. Lillian, thank you for spending this time for me. Okay, good. And Zag gesund.