Mae & Della Marcus
The Marcus sisters descended from German Jewish families who put down roots in East Texas in the 19th century. Their mother's family, the Weismans (spelled Weismen), came from Syracuse, New York, where their mother and her siblings were born; she arrived in Texas as a child around 1877. Their father emigrated from Germany at about age 15, choosing to leave rather than serve in the Kaiser's army. He entered through New York, was naturalized in Louisville, Kentucky, and treasured his handwritten naturalization papers. He made his way through several states, including Mississippi, before joining an older sister in Marshall, Texas. Family legend held that an ancestor won a lottery as a young girl and used the winnings to bring family members across the ocean one by one.
In Marshall, the family became part of a substantial Jewish community made up largely of German Jewish households such as the Weismans, Steins, Duppelmyers, and Carols. Many families had come south on doctors' advice, hoping the climate would spare children who had been sickly in the North. The community worshipped first on second floors and then in a temple erected in 1901. The sisters recalled Rabbi Wittenberg, a former lawyer and judge, serving in the 1930s. Jewish life included the B'nai B'rith and a Hebrew Benevolent Society, festival celebrations, and social gatherings at Newman Hall. Most families ran general merchandise and dry goods stores; when Marshall went dry around 1910 under Prohibition, many merchants migrated to larger cities.
The sisters were closely connected to the Marcus family that founded Neiman Marcus in Dallas. They recounted the family of Herbert Marcus, whose sister Carrie married Al Neiman, and traced the marriages of Marcus and Rosenbaum siblings and other relatives who settled in Dallas, first on streets near downtown and later on Swiss Avenue. Visiting Dallas as a girl, one sister remembered relatives such as Uncle Jacob and Cousin Ophelia, along with the Jewish cemetery downtown. Living in Marshall, the family also had ties to nearby Jefferson and Shreveport, where relatives attended parties and dances. Throughout the interview the sisters shared vivid recollections of early domestic life, their extended family network, and a fine collection of autographed books.
Full Transcript
Okay, this is Ginger Jacobs and we are taping Della and May Marcus. It is May the 16th, 1978 and the Marcus ladies live in Marshall, Texas. They are members of a very old family, Jewish family, that came to Texas. When did your forefathers come to Texas? Our mother came from Syracuse, New York in 1877, 100 years last year. How did they get to the United States? Well, they're from Syracuse, New York. No, but when did they come here from Europe? Our mother was born in Syracuse, and all of her brothers and sisters were born in Syracuse, and the maiden name was Wiseman. That's W-E-I-S-M-E-N. and our father had come from Germany about the same time.
At 15 years away, he'd rather go in the army. See? He came into New York. He gets up first where he learned. God damn. And we are so proud to take such good care of his naturalization papers. That's a beautiful piece of paper. From Louisville, Kentucky. It's handwritten. And he declares that he no longer bears any allegiance to the Kaiser, which I thought was nice. I mean, if you're recording, it's nice to know. Yes. And then he meandered through the states until he came to Marshall, Texas, where his sister lived, an older sister. We were in Mississippi one time, and Papa said, you know what?
500 years, 500 years. Wait a minute. This is the only time I've been back here in 50 years. I was here on his way with a pack on his back. That's right, Johnny. That's what I tried to get one out of here. He, let me see. That's still running. I cannot run out. Oh, you're out of here. She was a little girl Her name was Mary Duplamire Wiseman And she came no she wasn Wiseman then Mary Duppelmeyer And she took this is the legend that she bought a 13 or 14 year old girl bought a lottery ticket and won enough money to cross the ocean.
And she brought the whole smoker all after. One by one. Why did she come to the United States? Why did she come to the United States? Why did any of those people want to break away? from the... They probably had more. I wouldn't have had the spirit, but they did. Would you, Carol? I don't know. We aren't in the same circumstances. That's right. We don't know. Ginger's husband lived through five years of concentration camps, and he had this stagion. You don't know? I just don't know. I don't have much disarrange. I guess I would just... By law and thy will be done. How did they meet?
Ma'am? How did they meet? Meet. Yeah, the double virus and all. Oh, I don't know how our grandmother met our grandfather, but anyhow, they married and became substantial citizens in Syracuse, New York. And our grandfather died in 1887, early in the year when Dale was born, in November of 1887. And now she's 90. And Stella graduated after, Stella and Adrian graduated after a party in 1911. And shut her down. Why don't you still tell me again. Who are you with? I'm with the Jewish Community Center. And I'm doing this as a volunteer. Did they give us these pens? Who gave us these pens? You said that your father had a relative in Marshall, Texas.
An older sister. And Mr. Jacob Marcus Stanley's grandfather was still older than that sister. As I recall, it doesn't make a difference. That's beside the point. But they were the older brother and sister, Ms. Collish, who had moved to Ardmore Oklahoma and then reared Her generations are still there in Ottawa Was there a fairer sized community What was community like in Marshall Texas and why did you come there Do you have any idea Well, I guess what had happened was people would have sick children in the North, New York area. The children would die. And when they'd get down to about one child, they'd say, you want to save this child, you better go south.
And they seemed, I don't know whether they just beamed at Marshall. I'm sure they came to Tyler and Longview and other places too. Longview did not have as many as Marshall. But we had a substantial congregation and a beautiful little synagogue. Of course, in the earlier days, they had worship services. on second floors. How old are the buildings? About here. In 1901, they erected a temple and it was so pretty. Remember Carol? Sure, I remember. I remember Rabbi Wittenberg later on. Was it Rabbi Wittenberg? About what year was that? That was in the 30s. Rabbi Wittenberg. It was the 30s. You know, he was a lawyer, a judge.
Was he? Yes, ma'am. The slaves don't want to call it that deal. well that's a you are the rabbi maybe oh yeah well now then was it the weather then that they told people to go south of the cells the kids I'm a big problem I mean this is college every man I'm really thank you in Marshall at the churches and then we do it to Ottawa to live she lived there a year which you buried of Westheimer and the two brothers were called now And so the older one said, the young one said, oh, you're going to appreciate it. You go with us. So we're back to Westheimer.
Oh, they were rich as a devil. They were rich as a devil. All right. How did you do it? What about people leaving Marshall to go to a place like Dallas? Why? What was the fact of that? It's my idea that in 1910, when Marshall went dry or thereabout, they felt there would be no longer a profitable business. Not that they were in the saloon business or anything, but they had dry goods and that sort of stuff, and they just migrated to larger areas That is certainly true of Marshall I think there been a general migration of Jews to larger localities And not that the people in small towns think that the Jewish religion is fading out.
It's not that. The Jews have gone to more populous areas. That's what it is. I see. When the Jewish people you said it dried out what was the factor that the town dried out? Prohibition Prohibition I guess I didn't say that Prohibition did it Oh there were over 43 saloons at that time Not all Jewish Oh no not all Jews No no Mr. Byer was His was a bottle shop, but I don't remember who or what other. Mama marched with Carrie Nation. Keep him away from Grandpa Saloon. That's cute. She came from the funniest family you ever heard of. They were all comedians. little dog and just every one of them were just as cute as they could.
Mr. Andrew Stein was a little old man wailing and they said Stein of course we knew. Well it is a funny happened. I don't turn your record off but I'll tell you this because it didn't necessarily go all that. Well my father came first came from from New York to to Mississippi and then well the ladies there said miss college what's the matter with your brother he can't sit still a minute and the little stein child had died Mabel Stein your great great ass and you know how in those days they just took the hook of the coffin and they put one house to the other you know and see they had gotten bed bugs in and oh Oh, they liked to eat Papa, or sit up for the Maverick style, that little girl.
The four day of the Maverick style. See, honey? So about later... An undertaker just brought the men, brought the men into the house, and they didn't want Papa's legs on. So this lady wanted to know why Papa was such as... He was a zipper. He was a zipper. He was a zipper. He was a zipper. But he was big enough to have a hip. You young ladies don't know it, but in those days, everybody put corrosive sublimates on their beds. You made a solution of that. I don't know what it is now. It's a polycasted. Well, it was corrosive sublimates. S-U-B-L-I-M-A-T-E. They would make a solution of that.
And you would take a feather and go in and out all of your slats in order not to get bed bugs or to arrest them if they were there. But that was the bed bug treatment, corrosive supplement. And your beds were stripped every day. Every day the bedding was put out on your beds. Of course you had plenty of service. then on our mother on Thursday of each week had Amanda Garner and she came out and stripped them again and took the mattresses out on the front porch and put them on the railings and beat them. We're just telling you early days. Yes, well that's good.
That's what we want. And well, you didn't get that bed bug stuff you did. You better take that out. Well, let's go ahead anyway. What was the lifestyle like? Well, they had Jewish organizations. They had Benавraith. And Hebrew Benavrault Society. And then of course they had big parties at the Jewish festivals. Maybe at Newman Hall too. A pool party. Not only did the Jewish people use that as a place of entertainment, the non-Jewish population did too. They had a very fine dance floor and they'd have orchestras. And that was an opera house, probably the same location as the present city hall is. They built a new civic center, but they haven't finished it yet.
So they still use the old city hall for entertainment traveling or otherwise And let me see One of the different offices, you don't care anything about that, do you? No. Shut it down because I'm stuttering. Now then, about what was the Jewish population? in Marshall in the turn of the century. Not to sustain a congregation. Now what that means, I don't know. There were many Stein families there and four, what, three wise men households and a couple double my household. Oh, I just can't tell you how many of them. The Carols. Oh, yeah, the Carols. They're still there. The Louis Carols are still there. You have a full address this week for Marshall.
You think it'd be 82 July. Well, our ancestry, honey, you don't have to talk about yours, Moe's Weisman and his family came from Syracuse about 1870. Lily was born in Syracuse in 1872. She was eight years old and they came to Texas. Well, I don't know she couldn't run in Della because Lolly was born in Texas, and he was born in about 1877. And then they came Viola in 1883. Everyone had mixed children with five years of poets. In 1883 was Viola and Nandell in 1887. Do you remember those names? Those are the wolves. Viola Wiseman. more of our wives. She just died. The oldest one of our relatives was born there was, I mean, first cousins.
Then there was that double my household. Uncle Dan came home in the Civil War. Well, tell me the joke on the Civil War. I think that's due to pain. Well, maybe she'd like it. Uncle Dan had a non-Jewish man. Who was a bank? I had the Marshall National Bank, Mr. Bill Pierce, when the Civil War was over. Pierce said Dan we ought to go home How are we going to get home Uncle Dan says that all right I carried a gold piece in my belt all this time We'll get home. So, I mean, their lives ran parallel from then on. They came home and established homes of their own.
And Mr. Duffelmire had gone to New York and married Miss Fanny Young. And then in later years, Uncle Dan's nephew, Joe Wiseman, married his wife's sister. So Uncle and the nephew were married to two sisters. Is this clap-trap to you? It gives us some ideas. That is the way those old families became established there. And they just didn't leave until now in that Doubemarle family. And there's still another Doubemarle family. In that Dubbler-My family, they were all highly educated people, and their husbands were college professors. University of Austin. Texas and Ann Arbor, Michigan and all that sort of stuff. They were the highbrows of the family.
There had been a son and then four daughters. The son was the Jimmy Dubbler-My, another Jim Dubbler. I have to admit that James was a family name because there were several James. Now were most of these people originating from German Jewish families? All were German. All German. None of the Russian or Polish? No, none of that. No, none of that. Generations. Later on they took over. They took over. The Polish Jews became the predominant. Blazes and brisks and everything like that came in later to Warsaw. About what years did the Polish and Russian Jews come? Well, I don't know. Some of their children were just as old as the children of our family, so they must have come pretty...
not too late in the 19th century. You know Ms. Long up here? I lived in Long. He was in Richardson, Texas. Well, anyway, why, she's just a new one. The new one, Sandy, and Freddie, and Bob, talk to them. Well Linda is just a precious girl just adorable She a big daughter She had ago Before Phil Reveal we might as well get out in a big way I have nothing to say. Alright, now then, in what types of businesses were they other than saloons? General merchandise. Department stores. Department stores. I don't know if there weren't any shoe cobbled or anything of that sort. I mean, they all had general merchandise.
I'm with any groceries, dear. Oh, what's that? Oh, Mr. I'm sold out things like that. We often got the fortune. They could sell like a Tesla. We had a order from David Berg in Chicago. Carol Jacoby is also taping with us and Carol was originally from Marshall no from my mother's all right my Carol's grandparents lived in Marshall who was my contemporary. That issue was from October to July. And Louise was basically in October. No, August 29th. October, isn't it? August 29th. Mother's is October. Well, it's after I was. Louise is almost a year older than I am, 1889. I was born in 1890. All right, Louise is still living in Tripoli.
What about now, you said that some of the Jewish families had moved to Dallas or larger cities because the city had dried out. Yeah. But, uh... Oh, Cavs, Cavs, Cavs, and the Ruby Maltz and Henrietta Maltz are in New York. And Josie, Josie died, Josie Cain, uh, died. Well, who moved to Dallas from this? Henrietta and Ruby. No, they first moved here and then later on to New York. Dallas wasn't large enough they went to New York now when did they start moving? 1914 I mean these particular people but there was a tremendously big family there the Grossman brothers and sisters and the guys excuse me, the six of them were born in Syracuse, New York They came to Marshall and they've had Moses and Hiram.
After, two serves after, or something. Oh, but you don't want to say to believe you're in. Most of those. Most of those. Most of those. Most of those. Most of those. Most of those. Long-time citizens of Dallas. And this is how he's out bruised. May, could you tell me, the rabbis you hang on, you know, you hang on. Huh? We have a wonderful collection of autographed books. Oh, really? One of which is, you spoke of Rabbi Wittenberg. He had been on district attorney in Wyoming. And I don't know where Ambassador James W. Gerard was from, but they had known each other in the United States.
Rabbi Wittenberg was leaving Germany, and Ambassador Gerard was bidding him goodbye. And that's in the picture that's in the preface of the book. James W. Gerard signed it and so did David Wittenberg. We don't know what in the world it will become about. Fine library, particularly the autographed books. Tell us, oh, maybe it'll be interesting. Oh, Fanny Hurst. Oh, gosh, what was the name? What was the name of the man that was advisor to all the presidents? Bernard Baruch. Bernard Baruch, his son. he's an autograph and one of the finest bald shortstops in the airport maybe what's the one name you got four of them oh um a stock is an eight I think um well Theodore Dreiser five of his six books are autographed and you taking this are you then she's gonna get on Harry too I just see her eyes lighten up What about some of the families that moved to Dallas?
Were they merchants or saloon keepers? I don't know what Mr. Cairn did when they moved up here. You know, Moses and Hiram Grossman, one of them lived on one of the big sides, what's the side street at the University of Memphis? Originally Murphy Street I remember Mrs Mittencourt saying Now it on Irvey It on between Maine and Commerce in Irvey Oh one main I had a beautiful but most of the families first they started off on KBS CED and our own our relatives Then they moved over to Switha, Swiss Avenue, and that's where they lived. And you know, in the more successful years. And now they live in apartment houses.
About what year did they come to Dallas? Our relatives. Well, I don't know. They had lived in Hillsborough. I don't know where the country was. We went to many markets at a wedding down in Hillsborough. I can give my idea. Stanley's father was Herbert Marcus. But there were three children older than Herbert. Celia Marcus Schultz. She was Miss Joe Schultz. They had run away, she and her husband, in Louisville, Kentucky. Then the second, then a Rosenbaum sister and brother, Mary's sister and brother Marcus. Eve Marcus and Ophelia Rosenbaum. And Eve Rosenbaum and Minnie Marcus were married. Sister and brother Mary. Shut that thing down a minute.
Let's talk about the Jewish people that came to Dallas and some of the things that they did when they came here. Well, I'll tell you what, my book spoke of the one. First it was Tony Schultz, and if my uncle had seen him sooner, he'd have beaten a whole life out of him. A 16-year-old girl, he got it. You know what that is, don't you, dear? Well, then the next came Ophelia Marcus who married Ophelia Rosenbaum. Then came Minnie Rosenbaum who married a brother and sister. Me told you that. And then there was a Cuddin Honeybutt and then Carrie Neiman. Carrie Neiman And there were fours of them Five of them came out for New York Kentucky But you see what money comes to when you looking But what was that story Now, Carrie Neiman married...
Al Neiman. Al Neiman, who was just a merchandising genius, right? In Atlanta, Georgia. That's where they lived in the beginning. That's where she met a woman. But they thought of the boy. She went to wait for a store in Atlanta. Uh-huh. Bridges, Bridges is the big department. Oh, is it? Well, anyway, that's how she met him. Then they came to Dallas and Herbert Marcus was the one who started Neiman Marcus. Didn't Terry Neiman divorce? Yes, he was running around with the girls in the store. She had to leave him. She had one little baby one time, was born dead. She never had any more. let me see what I was going to say.
Actually, it was a big turn. Well, what about the life in Dallas? You said that you had visited Dallas before. What are your memories of the Jewish community here in Dallas? I used to see old Marcus and Ophelia Rosenbaum, his wife. And Cuddin Ophelia was a brilliant person, real smart. She was smart. and we were all very fond of Cuddle Ophelia. And she had two children, Mae Marcus, she was named Mae for her, and the little girl died. Then Lady Lord Dorothy Jacobus came along, and we were quite a bit since we'd been up here. How does Dorothy Jacobus come into the family? Oh, that's right, her mother was a Marcus.
Yes, sir. Yeah, that's right. About what year was this? I don't know. I'm gonna say I don't know. Dorothy must be, how old was he? Well let's see Henry is about 52 and Ann is my age about 50 and large. and so now they were the younger they're younger than the Pollocks and all those they were the young ones I should imagine in her middle seventies late seventies wouldn you I think so this was a good 50 years ago about 1920s Well in Stanley let talk to his wife Stanley Mawroth was he about 68 or 70 I think he older than that 72 That's 72, yeah.
72, I believe he is. Yeah, honey, we don't have much association with them. See, they were such a big bespoke, all of them. All of them had come together. We were just yokels down there in Marshall. So we had missed it a morning. When you came up to visit, what was it like though? Oh, that was still mocked with no fear. I mean, what did you do? I was in a store every afternoon with a beautiful red coat suit and a white coat suit. There were many legs there made for me. But the red suit was a boss suit. Did you walk? Did you go on?
How? Carriage? Well, I don't know. Do you know when the Jewish cemetery is downtown? I'd pass every day and I'd go in Uncle Jacob and always be at the front door waiting. See, Uncle Jacob was Papa's oldest brother and they had a brother by the name of Hoeyman who died in the state very early before Uncle Jacob ever came to Texas. And then the next one was, let me see now, there was our aunt in Arbor that raised Papa, A. Honcha College, raised my father. And we just all ended in the Marshall. And see the doctor said, Tessie out, on account of the doctor saying, you've lost two boys, I'd go south somewhere.
So it was out in Marshall because they were all out here. I see. What was the relationship of the community in Marshall to that of Jackson? Jefferson. Jefferson, I'm sorry. Well, Jefferson was a good place to come, you know, in those days. And then Mama used to go to dances over from Syracuse to open. and take some time hours to get back my horse and buggy. That's many years ago. What about Shreveport? Was there much intermingling between Shreveport and Marshall? Well, I think Shreveport was so much bigger than us. Did you go over there? Did people go to Shreveport and Marshall? My cousin, my cousin, my cousin just died, my cousin just died, my cousin just died a couple years old, just died a few months ago and she went over there as a young lady.
She was having a good time over there. Well did she go over for dances? My aunt went to parties over in Shreveport. I know my aunt Louise went to parties over in Shreveport because she, Uncle Asher was the Bronx where old Shreveport family. Real old Shreveport family. Well of course we had a lot of wives over there. That big toy store, the first toy store in Louisiana was a heavy winner. What happened to all the Jews in Jefferson? I mean they had a synagogue but now no Jews are there anymore. They used to come to Boston to worship with us. But what happened to them?
The Eversings were the last ones. It was a store where we went to Sunday school. Old Miss Annie Holland's military store. And then their family of Coonsley there. And they had one on the school.