Marcus Rosenberg
Marcus Rosenberg had family roots that reached beyond Dallas, including a second cousin, Jacob Lloyd of Montreal, who was active in that city's Jewish Federation. Rosenberg carried a strong conviction that intensive Jewish education was essential to Jewish survival, believing children needed to know their history and heritage rather than relying only on a day or two of Sunday school. He often lamented that Dallas and much of the South lagged behind cities like Montreal, New York, Boston, and Chicago in Jewish education.
Rosenberg's central work in Dallas was the founding of Akiba Academy in 1962, coming just a few years after the earlier Hillel Day School had failed and left debts, which made building community confidence difficult. During the 1961 General Assembly held in Dallas, he met with leaders including Dr. Kaminetsky of Torah Umesorah and his cousin Jacob Lloyd to plan the effort. Funds from the sale of an old Orthodox synagogue building helped get the school started, and Rosenberg traveled to New York to recruit a young married couple from Baltimore to launch the kindergarten and first grade.
The application for Akiba to become a Federation beneficiary, filed in 1967 and championed by figures such as Ted Sheinbaum, Jake Fogman, and treasurer Milton Tobin, passed by a vote of 28 to 4 after Tobin studied day school programs in other cities. Rosenberg recalled resistance from some Reform leaders who feared splitting the community, and a pointed exchange with Rabbi Olan and Ben Lewis. He remained involved as the school grew, watched the later arrival of a Solomon Schechter school, and reflected with pride that Akiba was among the first day schools accepted by a Federation in Texas.
Full Transcript
The interview with Mr. Marcus Rosenberg on November 4, 1999. The interviewer is Morris Stein. It would be wonderful. Okay. Okay. Let's start, if we could please. How long was the Kiba in existence, and how long did it happen? If you remember, how many years did it take before it was finally admitted as a beneficiary. Keeper started in 1962, and the application, my major, was filed in 1967. Right. You waited five years? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because... Why? And actually you have to, when you file an application, you have to show some progress. You just don't jump in, you open a score on money. So five years was, it developed some, something in more detail.
And the application was filed. And the reason why it was successful is because this application, in fact, I need to give give you a copy of it, was signed by the following people. It was signed by Jake Fogman, approving, I mean, recommending, they are to be considered. Ruben Wolfson, Michael Falk, Ted Sheinbaum, So you had some real heavy years. Yeah. The application actually is the stuff. The application that we filed, Jack Travis was in that time I'm exactly correct. For some reason he did not bring it into the open because he thought it may be controversial So he kept it in his desk for two years.
I mean, it was about maybe 65 or that. Yeah, okay. So Jack just shelved it and he put it in his drawer. He felt that it would create some problems. Okay. Was there any... was his perception reasonably correct? And... No, here was an ortho that was... He was with the... Oh, no. You had an orthodox Jewish State School, an orthodoxy-oriented Jewish State School. Right. You had a community that was majority reform. You had, I imagine, a rabbi, from what Irvin Jaffe told me, who was opposed from what both Irvin Jaffe and Saul Katzis told me, me, I saw the other day, was violently opposed to anything that would, quote, segregate, quote, quote, Jews.
So it wasn't a statement. So okay, so maybe Jack wasn't entirely wrong. He wasn't entirely wrong. About it being controversial. Yeah, about being controversial. But the outcome you see, that he was wrong, when you see the outcome. Okay. the way we brought this application to the open, and was, prior to this, let me explain, yeah, that's correct, was by me calling, visiting with that chamber, asking him for the annual contribution to Akiba. By the way, Ted Chamber took me, he says he wants to see more about Akiba, and he invited me to have breakfast with him in his house Eight o in the morning coming over to have breakfast with him he says let me let get into the car and let go with Draciba let me see what all about It was Ted in those days, you know.
Yeah, Ted was very active. Yeah, for a while. Yeah, no, no, in those days, you can. Yeah. So we went over to Draciba, and this is before even we built the new building, that old building. So I solicited him for some dooming funds. In those days he gave me $25,000. This was the watch of mine. Yeah, that's right. That's right. He gave me $25,000, and he asked me, he says, what happened to the application that I signed? OK, so this is a year or two after the application. After the application. OK, all right. So I says, I don't know. I haven't had from them, he's still sitting there.
He goes back to his office, picks up the telephone, calls Kravitz. He says, what the hell is going on with you? I says, we had a diary to have a hearing. He was kind of out. He wants to get it out, he wants to get it out. And the scene kind of opened the, you know, to bring this application to the service. At that time the treasurer was Tobin. Milton Tobin was treasurer at that time. And they have assigned to Milton Tobin to investigate, review the application, and he sent back out of Paul. He was on the executive committee. Milton Tobin was on the executive committee.
Okay, let me stop you for a second, because I just want this for the record. Instead of giving it to the social planning committee, like they usually did, I think, in those days, Milton Tobin, who's the treasurer, and probably chairman of the finance committee too, right? Yes, and also head of the executive committee or something. Yeah, right, okay. And Newton Tobian was known to be involved in education in general. In the Dallas community? In the Dallas community. He was in Dallas Public School Yeah yeah He picked himself up and he came down to Akiva Milton He spent a day from room to room Is that right Yeah And after he left, he wrote letters, Milton wrote letters, took him six months, to the communities Cleveland, Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, asking him about the day school movement, asking him about it, you know, all the details he wanted to know.
And he accumulated the information from other cities. And then he called, after he got all that information, he called me in the Federation office. An executive told me, and he invited me to be in there for answers. questions. And at the meeting, any executive board, after all the answers and questions, highly recommended to be considered. And that they would submit this to the board for their their side of the government proved. And as you know, the way the Federation operates, the way the Federation operates... Here we go. So as you know, the Federation, before the cultural board meeting, they send out what the agenda is about here.
And in the agenda they reported a meeting from the Executive Board meeting, and they stated their opinion and recommendation. Okay. Did the Executive Committee recommend approval? Yes, that's what I said before. Okay. They recommended approval, tied in with an opinion from people in cities and so on. And while this was going on, as you well know, that all the Syrian rabbis, the rabbis in the community are ordinary members of the federal. Never in the history did all the rabbis show up. Very seldom did you know. But they saw. The agenda, and some rabbis were for it. Like, he wasn't here anymore, Rabbi, he was in Silverman.
Oh, was Silverman gone by then? By that day, Silverman, he was going to the story, and it's a little bit of a distance. No, so this is the guy between Silverman and Werner. That's going to be okay. This is the guy between Silverman and Werner, because Silverman was very much for it. That's another story about it. Anyhow, the gender went up and the meeting was a luncheon meeting at the Baker of Java. And all the rabbis were there, including Rabbi Hall, and also the honorary president of the Federation, he wasn't the word business, Louis. Ben Lewis. Ben Lewis. He was there and we brought the home and they came together.
We had a soul and he also came to the meetings. We had lunch. During lunch time, it's interesting. During lunch time, before we started the meeting, and the English, those like that, you know, self-service. Rabbi Long and Ben Lewis called me or put me aside, and Rabbi Long tells me, and Ben Lewis, Mr. Rosenberg, why do you create problems in this community? That was the first question, Rabbi Long asked me. And then we said, why do you want to split the community? That kind of a conversation was just... Was there that kind of division between the Reform and the rest of the Orthodox and the community?
No, the conservatives and the reforms were many different in the majority. And in those days, in 1967, there wasn't the federations and the communities there, and there's people for the school movements. It was still kind of strange today. It's different today. Not only today but then from the conservatives opened and then the forums opened and they set up the Federation of Education Yeah I want to talk about that too a little later So I said to Rabbi Oren, and especially because before we opened the school in 1962, I myself, Rabbi Bunstan, who was the beginning of the principle, meant to see Rabbi Ong in his office, which is part of it, and telling him that we want to report this to him.
He should not read this in the newspaper. This is what we intend to do. We intend to set up an educational system for Jewish education. He spent an hour in his office and he tells us, he says, Mr. Rosenberg, Mr. Brother Bernstein, he says, after you get through the Jewish school, would you come to my congregation and help us to get the kids into the Sunday school? He can't even get them on Sunday to come out. Okay, so I tell, I tell, oh, I don't understand what you mean by creating problems. It's because they have applied to get some support for Jewish education. You feel that this is splitting a community.
You feel this is creating problems. I says, let me tell you something. The one thing will happen after we educate some of these kids. we will deliver to you educated members. We don't want England members. That's exactly what I told rather often that night. It's the worst thing. I didn't want to go any farther. They also tell you the only difference between the North of the Jew and the foreign Jew is 500,000. This I didn't want to go so far. Anyhow, this is very funny. So, and yet, we had finished lunch and the opening meeting was Milton Togger. And this is when Milton told me, I opened the meeting the following way.
All due respect to you rabbis, because all the rabbis speak. All due respect to you rabbis I want you to know that you have failed in Jewish education That was his strong and he was a very close friend of Rabbi Oum Yeah, his father was the president of the congregation, Ropner was the president of the main group. And this is why he was looking for it. Abram was trying to work and said, go and find the 30 minutes and you see the opening. Oh, practically there was no member that didn't show up at the meeting. It was telling to work here was the rabbis, the unusual and the one to meet.
And the discussion was going on. Now we all spoke about splitting the church, the state of the church. He was dwelling on this area. Okay. So the federation is a state, and the schools are the kind of... Not federation, I mean it was the state of Texas, Maryland, Texas. Oh, okay. He was, all right, so he was doing the whole, the whole, uh, church-state thing. That's what he developed on, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. That's what he developed on. Okay. So then, the, uh, yeah, prior to the meeting, I asked Jake whether he could attend the boat, to come to the boat. Jake says, look, I have some people from Japan, at the, at the, at the, at the, at the crossroads.
Across the road, yeah. I got some people, but I'll tell you what I'll do, since it's across the street, I just come in, he, he cast my vote and leave, go back, Jake said. Right. Jay came in and looked to me and he explained the reason why he's four. He says, look, I have a manager in Atlanta, Georgia, in the back of the commercial metal hill, and it happened so that I stayed over Shabbos at this house, and that manager has and I was surprised to hear how they benched how they dumped how they did school And I don see anything wrong with the child who knows how to bench and how to dump And so, he explained that he wasn't very much, I remember the words he said, I don't know how much he's ever located in his house.
And he left. And then they finally, you know, it was about 2 o'clock in the evening or so and then went to a boat. I remember it was 28-4, something like four. There were four. Irvin and Jeffrey, remember, there were four against. Four against. That's right. 28-4. It tells me the application was very strong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly, certainly with Jake, who was very active, and Ted Chanbong, who was a major contributor. He wasn't that time, he was at two years, and then he beat it up. Yeah. And then he beat it up. So, so this helped, naturally, Jake helped tremendously, because Jake was, in those days, he was half a million dollar.
Yeah, yeah. And the go-do into five of them, who was going to fight for nine thousand. Okay, so Akiba gets $9,000. I believe it was $12,000. Okay, well, okay. Yeah, maybe I'll find those allocations. I'm looking for allocations, too. See, one of the things I'm going to ask you... You must be writing a book or something. I'm doing a dissertation. I'm going to be a doctor. I'm going to be a PhD. So this is... This is your PhD, too. 21st. Okay. Okay, marvelous. See, I couldn't make it in the schools, I had to buy it. That's all right, you learned in the school of life.
Yes, I can. So, we didn't think of this now. It was, that's the way, because the application, when they asked us to submit the application first, they asked to indicate in the application the affiliation of the parents from the students. I believe we had in that time, let me see, on the Victoria's application, so it's everything there. And so we had to break that 62% came from the Reform Temple in those days. So they saw, you know... Yeah. There's still kids from the Reform Movement. Oh yeah, but that one was the majority. Yeah. So they saw in the application, 62, and I imagine the Fair of Israel.
Anyway, the Fair of Israel didn't have too many small children, So it was about maybe 10 percent. The rest of the way conservatives and, and, and, and reform. So I remember who was against the Pollocks. Uh-huh, yeah. And the Jacobs, Jacobs. Jacobs, not Jacobus or Jacobs? Leslie Jacobs? Jacobs, yeah. Yeah, okay. From the Pollock paper. Yeah, from the Pollock paper. Yeah, yeah. I remember these, these two are definitely, remember, they were against it. I don't know. And Levi, did the rabbis have a vote? I know. Let me ask you a question. Before Akiba, there was a Hillel Day School that went under. That's correct. Now I know from going through the minutes that they applied for support and they didn't get it.
They didn't get anything from the Federation. You know, for the usual reasons. Okay. So Akiba gets started as a new ranch. They killed. I think they killed a colony close to 1958. Okay. And we started in 1962, four years later. Okay. And this itself was very hard to get started because you already had a failure, you know, so close to each other. And in fact, the failure was very bad. They didn't pay off a few I remember I went to Naira Chomsky in those days. I wasn't too much involved in the Hilo Academy, in the original Hilo. But I heard about this particular teacher stating that they wanted money, they cannot leave the city owners, they pay him up.
I made some arrangements to get a loan and pay him up. So something happened in the community then between 1950 I guess several things happened in the community between 1958 say and 1962 that somehow or another improved the climate or made things better. Did you have more financial support for Akiba than they had for... Actually the way it was in 1962, there was the National Convention of the the generations in the Stuttler Hotel. Here. No, I can tell you exactly when it was, because that was my first General Assembly. First time I ever was in... that was in 1961. November 1961. I was here. Okay.
Okay. So while you were at the Assembly of Oceania, the three people visited me, or I visited them. I met with him in my home. What's his name from Cleveland? Irving Stein. Irving from Cleveland? The only Irving I remember from Cleveland is Irving King. What? Irving King. But he wouldn't have been a day school. Irving Stein, he was the head man of the academy at Cleveland. Oh, okay. No, I wouldn't know him. I knew Irving Stone. Irving Stone. Stone. Oh, from the American Reading. American Reading. Okay, got it. Irving Stone, not Stein Stone. And then was he Dr. Kamineski from Toro Masora. Toro Masora, yeah.
He was here at the convention, and a cousin of mine, a second cousin actually, Jacob Lloyd from Montreal. Yeah, from Montreal. From Montreal. From Montreal. I knew who he was. Yeah, he was with the big shots in Montreal. Oh, he was the president of Montreal Federation, or the whole Macher in the Canadian system. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a cosmic man. Is that right? Actually, his mother and my third mother were sisters. Yeah, that's right. I mean, that's right, man. First cousin of my mother and him, the first, the second cousin. Okay. These three were here, and this was on a Sunday afternoon, because they stayed over the weekend here, which I'll be strong.
Sunday afternoon they met in my home for about an hour to discuss what it would take to get back there What we had we had a little property from the old synagogue It was closed. That was an Orthodox, sure. Orthodox. Yeah, okay. Rabbi Ramlitz. Okay. He was a rabbi for years. So we got this building. We sold that building, I believe. I can't really get something like $67,000 worth of money in those days. That's a good one. And this eventually helped Sam to get started. And I went to New York after that meeting, I went to Dr. Komedensky's office, interviewing a C.F. principal to come down.
So the first thing you decided is you're going to get a principal? Oh yeah. We met and they said, okay, I'll come to New York and help me get the principal. So he brought me three boys from Baltimore and Sheva. And told me single boys, one of us just married. And they all were rookies. And so naturally I picked that couple because she was a teacher. to start kindergarten and even start first grade, beginners. And Sinan is obviously not a contract. Bosom, for two years. Two years to get the contract. Bosom got $7,500 a year for two. Yes, coming in. Okay, so we were talking, and you had hired this couple to run...
I'm locking the door in the front. Yeah, I'm locking the door in the front. I'd be right. This couple for $7,500 a year to start Akiba Kastner. So she took me here. His wife started the kindergarten and a person started was great So you did a great at a time Great decision Yes Okay All right Now this is 1967 or 68 We have a breakthrough application. Yes. We have a break. The decision is made that year. We have a breakthrough. What, in your opinion, what's been happening then in terms of Jewish education and the Federation's receptiveness? We had very good cooperation with the relations. We were, meaning Akiba.
Akiba. And we had been the board, Gasteloni came, the board, Irvin Gransky was, the board, the Bootson, Cohen, the air conditioning. Henry. Henry Cohen, I remember, was, we also had some people that took an interest, especially from old-timers who still remembered that education from childhood. And it affected them so far, that Irvdansky in those days liked it so much that he and Professor Irwin over to going to his school. That was, oh, was that Rembrandt? Well, unless there was another one that I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, all right. I want to stop you there for a minute.
I'm sorry. Because I was already here when that happened. I think that was in the early 1980s. I don't know the exact same thing. something yeah and I remember very clearly I don't think I don't remember if you were still on the board but the people from Akiba were scared were really worried yeah we're really worried but they didn't say anything no they were mostly from economic yeah no they were worried for economics they were afraid that they were going to lose kids lose kids or lose income yeah well lose kids and lose income they were they didn't make too much noise but they were they know they said a couple of things we take a year to approve Solomon Schechter laid out conditions we had to do a study people were Worried because it was affiliated with the congregation, didn't know whether they should fund it or not.
The school opens and if my memory is correct, within three years the two schools, we double the population of kids who are going to day school. And the two schools start competing with each other as to who's going to provide the better education. Yeah, well, it's... No, the other thing that happened is that David Leapag, whose father I went to school with, by the way, and Eddie Feinstein started working together. rabbi finds it finds time from Syria from some sector yeah the young rabbi yeah it was the second thing outside you know start working together and they come up with the idea of the teacher I don't want to take up too much of your time now you appreciate your secretary more yeah the the no I said I've laid that out from where you stand from where you sit how would you compare the Dallas today the Dallas Federation of Dallas community with the Dallas of 1962 or 63 as as far as its not only support for Jewish education, but its understanding of Jewish forever.
Why do you think that's happening, Jewish education? Oh, it happened. It's the survival of the Jews. He didn mean so much in the standpoint of religion He meant more of don raise your child tree to do the fish I suppose, give my background, what the Jew stands for, so he'll be proud to walk the streets with a history of a big, of preventing the child from getting this information. That's what he preached all the time. But he is especially disheartened, and I lived in these shows, and they were about 20 years behind Jewish education, compared to Montreal and Canada. Oh, well, Canada's a whole different story.
Yeah, but Canada's in New York and Boston and so on. Yeah, New York, Boston, Chicago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, math. So, here, especially with the big taxes or areas which were formed, was representing 80 percent, 70 percent. They never had any Jewish education. But they really stand for, in general, no one knows. I mean, they're just trying now to come back to a little bit, bit more growing back a little bit of tradition, getting back to maybe occasionally to a Yarmicka or to a Taoist. You know, he came down to Taoist, Rabbi here and... Ziruma? Ziruma. And they wanted to go up because it is crazy, it was on Taoist.
So, anyhow. So why this happened, they start finally to realize. They finally start to realize that you cannot any longer raise the child completely through them for two days of sense. I mean, when you tell a child and a girl is obviously a Jew, he doesn't know what the hell are you talking about. But, bringing him back and bringing him into the history as to what the Jew had to offer to this boy, and what everything, everything involved that I'm there, and their Christian, India Krishna said I been on this way It comes from they usually usually the child it moved right now Anyone who wants to go with the religion it up to the child So, eventually, all over the United States, so much more now in the future education, from the standpoint that they recognize they recognize the ignorance how much from a practical point of view how much effect do you think that desegregation of the public schools had on day school education here a Jewish day school education Yeah, when they desegregated the public schools.
Okay, because a lot of Jewish parents sent their kids to private schools. Oh, you mean as to the support for Jewish education? Yeah. Yes, Sam would have it for all kinds of reasons. Oh yeah, there's always more than one reason. Yes, there was more than Sam, although he did have problems in the public school, as the mushroom helped a lot. The child, Sam, didn't believe in segregation of Jewish education education made from the public school because they felt it had to be more involved as a whole. Yeah. The social standpoint, and some only felt this way. And some are definitely older than the Westerners. Do you think that the immigration from other parts of the United States and from places like South Africa had an influence on the proportion of the population that supported Jewish population that wanted more intense Jewish education?
Yes there was some professional youngsters who were tasked with two dollars from major companies who came from the East some of the children already had some background in Jewish education and they were the first ones to jump in the back of the Sarmu-Israelis and Muslim-Kita. I was looking at the history of the allocations from the Jewish Federation over the last 40 years, and Jewish education goes from almost zero to 10% of the allocation. So, you know, that's pretty impressive, especially in a situation... It's all over the United States. Yeah, in all the Federation. In fact, again, I have a letter in the file, and then the Federation in Darwinship accepted the keeper as a beneficiary.
I got a letter from Dr. Kamineski from New York stating that the first acceptance of a base code in Texas. He says to me, he says he's on hand of the community, the majority, the largest majority of the foreign people, who are being both for accepting his voice of Orthodox records and Orthodox records. So he kind of said that I opened it and he tells me in a letter that this was a tremendous amount of PR work for the, for the, uh, Toros are for being able to advertise the Dallas Texans. One last question, and then I'll let you go to work. I think it was 1969, there was a General Assembly in Boston where the Jewish students really started a revolution.
they they they probably were protesting and they were protesting the fact that not the federations were not giving enough money to Jewish education they demanded more support of Jewish education things started happening around the country as a result of that what did you ever hear anything of that in Dallas was there ever any uh no uh was aware of that they bring this usually international conventions they usually always especially like the government's committee's group or the sort of office of junior they usually come to lobby yeah for for for yeah yeah no that's that's part of the whole thing but yeah but this was this wasn't here about the demonstration no no this was this wasn't