Minnie & John Smith
Minnie Weil Smith was the first generation of her family born in Dallas, the fourth of eight children. Her father, who fled Russia as a boy to avoid the army, and her mother, Fanny Tobolowsky, both arrived in the United States through Galveston in the late 1800s and settled in Dallas near distant relatives. Her father began as a peddler and then delivered bread by wagon for a local bakery, extending credit to poorer Orthodox Jewish families. The family lived on Caroline Street in Old North Dallas, where Minnie attended Cumberland Hill and Lamar schools, before moving to Corinth Street in South Dallas around 1925. She graduated from Forest Avenue High School in 1928 as an honor student, having also served as valedictorian of her public school and confirmation classes.
After high school Minnie chose work over college, training in stenography and shorthand and taking secretarial jobs, including with attorney Victor Hexter, where she did real estate, title, and abstract work. In 1933 she married Johnny Smith at Sherith Israel. Soon after, George Levy of the Federation asked her to help temporarily with a fundraising campaign; that brief job stretched into a 43-year career as the Federation's secretary. She witnessed the growth of the organization from a small operation into a health and welfare federation supporting agencies such as Jewish Family Service, the community center, and various hospitals, and she remembered the 1933 killing of social worker Rose Kahn at the Jewish Social Service Bureau.
Minnie was active in Jewish youth and women's organizations, serving as state president of Young Judea and president of Junior Hadassah, and she helped sponsor the Hadassah Buds and taught Sunday school at both Tifereth Israel and Sherith Israel. She recalled a childhood filled with observant Jewish life, kosher cooking, Passover preparations, and pushke boxes for charity. Her husband Johnny grew up attending Hebrew school at Sherith Israel, was bar mitzvahed in 1923, helped organize the Dallas AZA around 1929 or 1930, and was a noted athlete honored as most valuable player in a Jewish softball tournament. Together the Smiths reflected warmly on the changing relationships between Dallas's Orthodox and Reform Jewish communities and the leadership of figures like Julius Schepps who helped unite them.
Full Transcript
All right, today is February the 4th, 1992, and we are at the home of Minnie and John Smith. And Minnie and I are going to be talking about what Dallas was like when she was growing up and her activities and her background. How do you prefer being called or referred to Minnie? Minnie? Okay. You mean whether Mrs. John R. Smith or Minnie Smith? It all depends. Okay. Minnie Weil? Minnie Weil. Smith, very frequently, yes. Yes. What is your home address? Over here we're at 6731 Norway, Dallas 75230. And are you the first generation to be born in Dallas? Yes, my folks were born in Europe.
Where in Europe? Russia? Don't ask me the cities. I could look them up if you have to. Both parents from Russia? Mm-hmm. What circumstances did they leave there, Russia? Well, Papa didn't want to be in the Russian army, and so he ran away. That was in about 18, oh in the late 1800s. He was just a small boy when he left. And they came over here to this country, not at the same time, but they both came in through Galveston There were some distant relatives that they had and that why they selected Dallas to come to Do you know about what year? 18...oh, oh, okay John.
it had to be about 1880 your daddy was 60 uh 87 when he passed away and that was in the in the 60s 67 I think so it was about 1880 that I would think it well I knew it was in the late 1800s but He came here a little boy didn't he? Yeah a little boy yes mama was a little girl About 1885, in fact mama went to school here. Somewhere in the late 18, very late 1800s had to be then. Who was the family they related to here in Dallas do you know? Well, Mama was a Tablaski, and she had a brother here, she had cousins here, and my daddy had a sister here and other relatives.
Yeah a brother that he had kind of lost track of for a while, but he passed away several years later but they weren't real close well that no we're talking about here in Dallas okay you mentioned the Tobolowskis do you but know about when that family came year? I would guess probably in the late 1880s also. In other words, just about the same time or just before then? Approximately the same time I would guess Even though they weren related you know it was just a coincidence that they happened to be here about the same time My daddy met my mother. She had already been going to school.
In fact, she graduated from public school and as youngsters they started going out romancing and got married. Do you know about what year that she graduated from public school? Shall I venture to guess? Or within a few years, or maybe there's a historical happening that you know of, but you could pretty well figure it out. I guess around 1895 1900 your oldest brother was born in 1905 who your oldest brother oh yes Max was Well 1905 so your mother was a youngster then? Yes mama married early yeah I think she was 16 or 17 when she got married and uh How old was your daddy?
He was a couple of years older then. So they were both pretty young by our standards. What is the extent, well let me back up, What was the extent of Eric's Jewish education here? Or were they in school before any Jewish education before they came to the state? There really wasn't any Hebrew schools or anything like that Of course at the synagogues they were taught a few things The rabbis that came here were knowledgeable but they didn have regular classes or anything like that as you would get them to have nowadays But my daddy was pretty well versed and knew Hebrew. They didn't, and Yiddish too for that matter.
He and Mama for a while spoke Yiddish with each other even as the children were growing. But we got away from speaking Yiddish and it all became just a regular English. then through the years. Did your mother come over by herself as well? Mm-hmm. Yes. And two relatives then? When mama came over, her brother, I think, was already here. I don't think she came with anyone special, But there were cousins that came at the same time and she stayed with one of my brothers for a short while, just like my daddy stayed with his sister for a while. Now you said your mother stayed with one of your brothers?
No. One of her brothers. Her brothers. Okay. Uh-huh. Now was she a Tobolowsky? Yes. She was Fanny Tobolowsky before she got married. A sister to A.B. or Ben Tobolowsky and and a sister, Alty. Yeah, well uh, Alty Ablin was a sister. Those were the two sisters who were here. Of course she had a couple of other sisters, uh one in Fort Worth, uh Rose, who also was Ablin, two sisters married two brothers, And a younger sister, Esther Heyman, who wound up in Robstown, Texas. Now did your mother also come to Galveston and then come to Dallas from Galveston? Yes, they both came in from Galveston.
And this would both have been during the late 1880s then? Right. Okay. Okay. And they came directly to Dallas then? Yes. They didn't go anywhere else. When my daddy came here he started work. He was like a peddler. He peddled different things. He traveled around in the outskirts for a while and then he went to work for Shep's Bakery. The bakery was doing rather well. My daddy had a wagon. He sold bread from the wagon. I don't know if it was two cents a loaf or five cents a loaf. Had a lot of customers and Somebody didn't have money, why he gave them on credit, he never collected, he was responsible, so he took care of so many of the Jewish people who didn't have too much money at that time.
There weren't too many of the Orthodox Jews who had any money. Of course, there were a few Reformed Jews in the city who had money, they were well fixed, But they disassociated themselves from the Orthodox element. Even to the point of trading with the bakery or at a business level? Well, whether they traded or not, I don't know. But I know that Papa's customers were all into the Orthodox element. He had a certain area, you know, that he covered. and that was the old North Dallas area Eastern to live in my own folks Brad And who would ever think that Minnie and I would later become one Now where did you live?
Or where, I should say, where did he live when he came? On Caroline? On Caroline is where the folks' homestead was. Oh, it fell down. That's where they had been living before, in that area. There were a few grocery stores and meat market and, well, whatever the necessities were for the people while it was there. It was just a couple blocks from McKinney in the downtown area so that the location was very good. They had streetcar transportation eventually and they managed to get around. a little shul opened up on Highland. It could accommodate maybe a hundred or so people. It an upstairs little balcony area for the women and later on through the years I know that the children went there for Sunday school Sunday school was actually the religious part of the education that we received through the shul They blocked off certain little areas.
They had two or three classes and you had a certain teacher who taught you certain things and then you progressed to another area and learned certain other things there. Didn't learn a whole lot. Never really learned Hebrew. I didn but the boys of course had a terrific education for Hebrew In fact I know with Johnny even he learned his Hebrew to the point where he knew everybody mofters Without reading, it was all from memory. So the boys in those days really got a terrific Jewish education. Now how did that happen? Did they have classes? Did they have individual tutors or what? They had Hebrew teachers, they had classes.
Who were some of the boys in your class? In my class? Uh-huh. Was Sherman in your, Sherman and uh... Ida Cobo was in my class. I remember Ida Cobo, she was in my class. Some of you were in the middle. Sam Kaufman. About what year was this? Abe Sussman. About what year? I was at Sheriff Israel, or later. Okay. It wasn't later because I was by the midst of it, Sheriff Israel. It would have been around 20...20... 1923. Oh, or 23, 24. 23, when I was born in Israel. Now, this was Teferit Israel on Highland, is that correct? Teferit Israel was on Highland, and where Johnny went, Johnny went to Sherith Israel for his Hebrew.
Now was that at Jackson, on the Jackson Street? Started on Jackson. At the Jackson Street Street at that time? Right by Bushnick. Now, the building on Highland Street that Teferith Israel built there, do you know when that was built? What year? They didn't build it. Or did they buy it there? They converted it. it was some other kind of like a residence or a storeroom area or something like that and they converted it into the synagogue and got the seats and rebuilt the inside of it you know to suit their purposes Sure And down the street from that there was like a kindergarten that the Council of Jewish women sponsored, I think, but a lot of the kids went to that school.
Was that the one that Elsa Hirsch taught at on McKinney? That was, it wasn't on McKinney, this one was on Highland or Cedar Springs. Cedar Springs, perhaps. Cedar Springs, the corner on a corner, though. I remember the building being on the corner. But that was the one she taught her. Okay. Okay. Now, what did you study in religious school at Tefereth Israel when you were a child? What types of subjects? Well, we studied the basic history from when Adam and Eve were first put on the earth to the time of, well, the highlights, you might say, of history. It wasn't an intense history studying period, but we learned enough to appreciate the holidays and certain historical events in the Old Testament.
Did the boys study Hebrew and the girls not study Hebrew, or was that an issue? Or did they all study Hebrew together or not study at that point? the boys studied Hebrew in order to be bar mitzvahed that was the extent of their study in fact I don't recall that they even came to the Sunday school classes with girls but you were at Sherrith and at Ferrit there may have been a different system now how did the boys learn their Hebrew then if they did They had teachers, the rabbi and one or two other. So-called elders of the shul that knew Hebrew real well taught them, but they didn't get near the training that Johnny got.
I mean, they learned enough to have their master and different things relating to the bar mitzvah, and I think that was the extent of it. During the week, not during the religious school period, is that it? No, not unless they did it in the back part of the building away from where the Sunday school classes were, but I don't think any of the boys were ever around. Okay. They probably did it during the week. You know, after school they probably studied. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, which grammar school did you go to? Well, I started at Lamar. No, Cumberland Hill. We were living in far north Dallas then, what we call far north Dallas.
It was over on Caroline, 25, 18. Don't look at me. Caroline until I was in the fourth grade and I started going to Lamar School in the high fourth. We moved during the January period and there were several weeks there that my daddy drove us to school or drove us to the streetcar lines and then picked us up, you know, in betwixt and in between. But when we moved to Corinth, we moved to 1421 Corinth, it was right next door at Lamar School. We had a ball. We didn't have to go there until we heard the bell ring. Then we would all run over to get into classes before, you know, we would be considered tardy.
But there weren't too many Jewish children that went to Lamar School, although there were a sprinkling of Jewish people in the neighborhood there They just didn happen to be in my classes That was I started there in the High Forth and then of course graduated from Lamar School I was 13 years old and then I went on to Forest Avenue High School after that, graduated when I was 17. When you were living in North Dallas on Caroline, what about the neighborhood then, at that point in time? Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like living in North Dallas? Well, we had a lot of Jewish neighbors, not necessarily next door, but within the block there would be several different families.
We didn't have too much time to socialize with them, but the kids played together. Where we lived we had a big barn in the back and kids in the neighborhood used to come over and play in the hayloft up above. My daddy had a horse, you know, with his wagon, and so we had hay around there. We'd play all kinds of games. There were several Jewish families in the neighborhood that had children about our ages. There were eight children of us growing up. When we moved out to South Dallas, my brother Nathan was born. He was the only one born on Corinth. rest of us were all born on the other side of town and of course we had children ranging within about 10-12 years of each other so that there was always a lot of company, a lot of kids always coming around playing and it was a nice life.
Had plenty to eat. Of course our quarters weren the largest We doubled up We had to sleep two to a bed and in a couple of the rooms there were double beds two in the double beds We managed to do all right though There was quite a few Jewish families in that neighborhood. Seltzers, Spellings, Aaron Spelling was in that. The Hermans, the Walls. The Wallmans. Wall, Wall, from the grocery store. The Waldmans? Yeah, the Waldmans weren't too far away, and, oh, I don't know. you think back there were the Inkewitzes I know more about it than you do yeah you're right honey but uh the Fromans the Warshes the Ablins and the Tobolowskys and later on the Rubinettes after they got married and And, well, it was in the Donskys, the Donskys.
Barzun. Barzun. There were a lot of old timers there. Good people, honest people. There were no troubles, no break-ins. You could leave your house open. Nobody came in to bother anything. There was no stealing or house burnings or any kind of trouble. You never saw the police around. There was no need to call them around. One thing definitely, though, I remember when we were living there in North Dallas is when we had a flood. And the waters came up. We were so afraid it was going to get as far as our house. It came as far as the block before us and then the water started receding But that was a big flood Big flood When you moved to Corinth about what you were in the fourth grade was that in the what 20 what was it About what year?
In 25. Okay. Was there other movement from North Dallas to South Dallas at that point in time, or was it? Oh yes, we were, uh, oh there were a number of the Jewish families that had already moved out, and uh, that's why the folks decided, well maybe we ought to figure on moving too. A lot of Mexicans, you know, were moving into the neighborhood, and while we had nothing against them, we felt that we'd rather be among Jewish people, our own kind. And then when the folks located this house, and because of its location and the proximity to the school there and the whole two or three blocks was one Jewish family right after the other we really had a ball and then of course the house where the folks were living extended from Corinth on the Browder Street all the way back to the alleyway there.
There was a lot of extra ground so in time my daddy built a four apartment on the area there and and he bought some apartments blocked down south of us and practically all of the tenants were Jewish from the Nathansons to the Kogan's to the Michelson's to the Miller's to the Schwartz's to the well it was just a Jewish A real Jewish neighborhood. The Rafkins lived across the street and the Einhorns lived a block down the street. Who else? The Greens. Yeah, the Greens lived a block the other way. They lived on Beaumont. well we just go ahead all right so we were talking about all of our Jewish neighbors and at that time we started going to Sherath Israel because Sherath Israel wasn't but maybe six eight blocks from where we lived and went to Sherrith Israel for many many years in fact Johnny and I got married at Sherrith Israel I taught Sunday school over at Sherath Israel for several years and was confirmed over there.
Had a lot of the friends that we knew and grew up with were going over there, so it was very Very nice. And then of course, in 28 when I graduated from public school, from high school, so many of the children... You're talking about so many children... Yes, so many that we had gone to Sunday school and had been confirmed with and went to high school with we were we're still very very close and then of course as at that time I decided I didn't want to go on to college it was a rather costly thing and I figured I just as soon go to work so I decided that's what I would do I I had studied stenography, shorthand and typing when I was at school.
My English was good. My writing was good I could speak fairly well I had been on the debating team So I decided that I would pursue that avenue of life And I did. I got one or two little temporary jobs and then I went into legal secretarial work. I went to work for Victor Hexter and Manny Reitman became a junior executive there. I worked for him and the Ungermans came to work there and I worked there until I got married. Right? Right. And that was in when? That was in 1933. You got married in 33. Right. And then did you work? No, Johnny didn't want me to work after we got married.
And I wasn't going to work, but I used to go to the old YMHA, watch Johnny play basketball and other sports over there. And one night when I was up in the balcony watching a game, George Levy, who was the executive director of the Federation, came over and asked me if I would consider doing some temporary work. They were having an American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee campaign coming up, and he knew that I was a good stenographer, a good person to work with him. I told him, well, I didn't know I'd have to talk to Johnny. And I talked to Johnny. Johnny didn't really want me to, but I told him, well, what else did I do?
I moved furniture in our apartment. I went shopping. I didn enjoy playing cards or that type of activity and I figured well it wouldn hurt So I did tell him that I would come to work and work there for a few months And about that time, another campaign got started, the United Jewish Appeal. It had a different name at that time. they were going to be undertaking a campaign. So one campaign led into another until finally he wanted to know if I would just work there on a regular basis. So that's what we decided I could do, so I did. And those few months of temporary work lasted to 43 years.
All right, I want to go back with your school experience and then we'll talk about Federation. Okay. Okay, was there anything in particular memorable during the school experience? Well, when I went to public school, we had music memory contests, and we had art contests. I used to love those contests. I was pretty good at them, too. And we had all kinds of activities that the children nowadays in public schools miss out on. They don't really learn so many of the fine things, I don't think, that we learned in my day. We had penmanship, we had spelling bees, of course I do know that they have the spelling bees now but that about the only thing that they have picked up on But it was an altogether different kind of schooling that we had then And the children, I was valedictorian of my public school class, and I was valedictorian of my confirmation class, and I graduated with honor when I got out of high school.
I was a pretty good student. I made pretty good grades. I studied, but I enjoyed it. I liked Spanish. I took three years of Spanish and I could carry on a conversation with anybody then, but no more. I haven't used it. Did you use Spanish in the classroom in terms of speaking? Were you actually... When I was studying, yes, in the last year, but that was about at all. I didn't care for French or Latin, so I never did study then. But I was good in arithmetic, too. I used to love figures, whether it was algebra or geometry. I was real good at figures, too.
Different kids had problems with different things. They'd always get me to check them out or help them with different things that they had problems in, regardless whatever they were in. Were there a lot of Jewish kids at Forest at that point in time? Oh yes, I would say probably, oh a fourth of them anyway were Jewish. Now, did you live on Corinth during your complete high school career? Yes, I lived on Corinth until I got married. Now, was there more or were there more Jewish families moving to that area and how did that relate to, say, Park Row and South Boulevard and Forest Avenue? Well, from where we were living on Carr-Inf, as other families left the north side of town, they had originally a lot of I've been living around Powhatan, Pocahontas, and some of those streets that were a little closer to town than we were, but they started moving further north.
They moved out to where Colonial and Spence and Forest, Park Row, South Boulevard until those streets had I would venture to say oh probably about 25 percent of that area was Jewish. All right then they moved like from Pahouton Woods which is just south of downtown to farther south then is that correct? Yes, right, Right. Okay. Okay. And in high school, what was the general tone at the school with the large Jewish population, or considering the general proportion? Well, as you would guess, Jewish children were pretty good students. They had pretty good heads on them, and even though they didn't make up the majority of the classes, yet the few that were in the individual classes brought a certain amount of know-how, shall we say, to the class itself.
Jewish kids seemed to be in the top groupings all the way through, and a lot of the non-Jewish kids resented some of that because they felt that, you know, they were out smarting them, that they out shown them in the classes and all. But the kids got along pretty well together. There wasn't a lot of anti-Semitism or hatred or anything like that going on in the classrooms I don think at least not in the ones that I had anything to do with How about playground and social situations Well in the playgrounds the Jewish kids didn go in for a lot of that activity They weren't especially interested in the athletic part of the program.
They didn't go in for sports, you know, the way the others did. If you found one or two of the boys that were on some of the teams, that was a pretty good percentage for a while. Louie the star. Yes, in basketball. And football. And in football. Well, my brother Abe was on the football team, too, for that matter. But I mean, that would be one in maybe 20, 30. You know, they weren't the best athletes, although those that participated were very good. And did they get any Semitic remarks on there? I don't know that there was much anti-Semitism going on at that particular time.
Not in the schools, anyway. There was on the outside. Yeah, we'll talk about that. Yes, we need to. What about Jewish holidays, when the Jewish kids would stay out of school? Well, all the Jewish kids didn't observe all the Jewish holidays. The Reform students maybe would for a while observe, say, one day of Rosh Hashanah or one day of some other holiday but like with the orthodox children and it was really a division of orthodox and reform it was just two categories at that point the orthodox would stay out and observe the entire holidays and you'd be questioned by the teacher as to why you stayed two days and your Jewish friends stayed one Yes that true And the kids themselves, I think, to a certain degree, couldn't understand why some of the Jewish kids were as observant as they were.
They figured they were just taking advantage of situations. but it wasn't a real bad situation. All right, what about the teachers? Did they give you a bad time? Did they give tests on Jewish holidays? Did they not? Once in a while, a test happened to hit on a Jewish holiday, and from what I can recall, we were allowed to make them up. In other situations, I know people have said that they got a zero for not being able to make up the test. But the couple of teachers that I had let us make up the test. What about prayer in the public school? Was there a time where you made it?
There was no prayer. You never had a class where teachers would have prayer? No, never. Okay. All right, what about the general tone? Now, the early 20s was an era of KKK. Yes, there was. Tell us about that era. We'd hear instances and there were things in the newspapers that indicated that the KKK was on a rampage and we were a little frightened sometimes. They would go mostly against the blacks. Do you remember any particular instance where they were showing anti-Semitic behavior overtly? No I don think so Although later on I know in the country clubs they didn allow allow certain people to join I know with Julius Sheps they didn want him to come into the Dallas Country Club and Dallas Athletic Club.
Yeah, the Dallas Athletic Club was anti-Semitic in that sense, but I think those were the main two. this golf club out here in East Dallas. Rob Olegs? No, no. Off of Skillman, off of Abrams. Lakewood? Lakewood Country Club. You couldn't belong to that. Now, what era are we talking about? This is in the late 20s? Would you say? I remember I was a little kid, and I really used to. Okay. Now, what about your personal observances at home? How did you observe the holidays? Well, we were very observant in our home. folks kept strictly kosher and Mr. Fromm used to come around and chef the chickens.
Nicola chicken. And Mama was a good cook. She always had so much food. She was always afraid, well, Maybe somebody would drop in. She always had to have extra, you know, in everything. And for the different holidays, whatever foods you should have, we had. And it was fun growing up, come to think about it. It really was. How about the religious services? Was there any English in the service? You mean for instance like in Pesach? When you went to... Reading the McGillers, or reading... All right, let's talk about home service. When you had the Pesach Seder, how was the Seder? Well, Papa would read everything.
We didn't participate in the service. Like nowadays, this one reads a paragraph, and that one reads a paragraph. We didn't do that. Papa did the whole service, and when it came time to washing the hands, Well of course one of us would get the towel and a bowl or they'd go out of the room, the man would, and wash up. That was with Pesa and we always had those matzo balls, soup, and everything else it was so good. Like I said, Mama was a terrific cook. What was it like preparing for Pesach? What was it like? Well, the house had to have a thorough cleaning, and then I don't know who it would be, would go around and put some crumbs and stuff in the windows and around the places so you could clean it out and know that everything was finished up which I could never understand that was something that I just could not understand but that's the way it was but the dishes of course were all changed and we had to put everything orders for all the food and everything.
Yes, and then bring all the pesadiki stuff in. Separate dishes. What about holidays like Simplastora? It's chill now. Oh, it's chill. It's chill. And circus. Did you have a circus? No, we tried having a little one at one point, but we decided we'd just use the one at the shul and be done with it And Simcha Torah what was that like at Shul Simchus Torah well my daddy one year had a what would you call it like a grogger Mr. Malowitz built something, no we're talking about Tferd Israel, this is going up. A number of years. It had a big contraption and you tied it to electricity.
You turn it on and crack like this. It would knock your ears out almost when they mentioned Heyman's name. But we used to always go to shul to participate in whenever. There was something that we were supposed to attend. Alright, let's go back to Purim with the electric humminklopper is what it was. Did the kids have individual groggers? Oh yes, yes. And flags. Flags for Ciclostora? And they marched around with the tourists? For Purim also. For Purim also. Okay. Of course it wasn't the same display that you get when you're marching around for San Castorah, but they did have some flags and mainly the noise makers and everything else to cause a commotion whenever Haman's name was mentioned.
What about the observance of Pesach and Hanukkah and the holidays that were observed at home where you had service? Well, let me tell you about Hanukkah especially. Of course, we used to tell the folks that we wanted to, we didn't want a tree or anything like that but we wanted something symbolic so mama would put socks up on the mantel. Sock for everybody and we have candy and nuts and little toys and fruit She put in every sock that was up there and we also had gifts that we got above and beyond that but it was with the socks that we had more fun than anything else.
those who were bigger had bigger socks you know and they couldn't understand why they couldn't have a big sock like the other one you know that's kids but it was it was a lot of fun did you get Hanukkah galt too or not uh sometimes we got the the galt usually though it was a gift of some kind. But we didn't get one every single night. They've gotten into the habit you know nowadays of giving the kids every night something. When did you get your gift? Did you get on the first and the last or during the commentary? First day or last day? The beginning.
Right at the beginning. Now you said that you were members of Teferrith Israel and then you later went to Sherrith Israel. Right. Did you drop your membership from Tefereth Israel then, or did you have two memberships, or how did your family do with that? I think when we moved over to Corinth, we were much closer, of course, to Chereth Israel at that point. The kids were growing up to the point where the folks wanted them to go to Sunday school, so the folks joined Sherath Israel and apparently they let the Teferth Israel membership lapse and they didn't continue it. Alright, now the Hebrew School of Dallas moved out of the Sherath Israel building in 1928.
Did any or how many of your siblings went to that school and for how long? I don't think... What was the point? I don't know that any of them did. Well Nathan I love Shalom his picture is in one of the pictures And Dorothy is in one of the pictures at that Hebrew school Unless it Sarah Sarah I believe She was a librarian there, too. The real young ones could have. I don't recall that. But I know that I split the family. In 1928, Minnie was already 17 years old. and they're too old for Hebrew school. You said you split the family. How is that?
In other words, I had two sisters older and two sisters younger than me. And the only thing with my brothers, my brother Max was older, but the other three boys, Esar, Aby, and Nathan, were younger than me. Okay, so in the order of siblings, Would you name each of them? There was Max, then Sylvia, then Nellie, then me, then Eser, and Dorothy, Aby, Sarah, and Nathan. Max was the oldest and Nathan was the youngest. how many years between Max and Nathan? About... Maybe about... How was Nathan when he died? Nathan was 63. He's been gone five years. 68 against 85, 17 years. I started to say it's close to 20 years between the top and the bottom.
About two years apart, you know, which would make it just about that. Let's talk about your career at the Federation. You talked about different campaigns. Can you tell us a little more about that? Did the Federation run separate campaigns for a very This agency, you know, that the money was directed to, or what was the setup of the Federation when you started? And how did it change? When I first started in, as I said, it was like a temporary type of work where the campaigns were to raise money for Israel, for Palestine. Then when it became into regular work, that aspect was just a certain part.
We raised money for Jewish Family Service, for the Community Center, for the Levi Hospital, for the National Jewish Hospital, for the American Jewish Committee, for the Congress. You know, the different agencies that even now are in existence, they were all in existence at that time. And we had our annual fundraising campaign. I was the only secretary that the Federation had. They had a bookkeeper and a director. And of course through the years the Federation grew to the point where we had other office employees, we had assistant directors, we changed the scope of the campaign itself. It was divided more into a health and welfare type of organization as well as the normal functions of a federation The hospitals were a major part of the work program and of course the local aspects of the program were quite important.
They had more appeal at that point I think the necessity was there and we were located in the old YMHA on Pocahontas Street which was renovated and remodeled a couple of different times. A lot of activities got started over there. They divided off the building so that the Jewish Family Service was over on the extreme. I'm talking with Minnie and John Smith and we're talking about about federation, but we'll be also talking about the beginnings of the AZA and the Jewish Community Center when it became the center after being the YMHA, those early years in the late 20s and the 30s period. And we are at their home on Norway Road, 6700 block of Norway Road in Dallas.
Okay, so George Levy was there until 1940? Mm-hmm. And who brought George Levy in? Was he the Federation Director? Yes, he was the Federation Director. Now, what did they do with the Jewish Community Center or the YMHA building? How did that... did they have an executive committee? Originally it was just a committee of the Federation. The Federation... wait a minute let me get back here. We're going to come back to AZA. All right, let's talk about the activities at the YMHA building. Just at that period of time, when AZA was being organized, and was there a staff for the athletics or for any of the activities?
Right. And what were some of those activities? They had an athletic director at that time. His name was Dr Gene Brown I don remember how to he was a dentist but he was interested in athletics and he was the director Was he a volunteer or was he a paid? Paid. By who? By the community, by the YMHA. All right, after the Federation took over the YMHA with all the loans and what have you, was he kept on stand? No, he left. Did Abe Sewell follow him? Was he the next one? Abe Sewell was the executive director before George Levy. Abe Sewell was before. and... Alright, when was that AZA basketball team functioning or playing, you know, lots of ball?
Immediately, after the organization. After it was started? Right, after they received our charter. and participated at the gymnasium there. We went to Waco at one time. Waco had a convention of some sort and a basketball tournament, which we participated. We didn't win, but we participated. All right, now then, who worked with you at the center when you went to Waco, you know, during that period of time that AZA had the team? You don't remember if there was a YMHA person there or a center person there who worked with the teams? Did you have... Gene Brown was the athletic director as far as the center was concerned, but the AZA, we organized our own team.
Yeah, but did he work with you at all? Not with a basketball team. Not with a basketball team. Only in exercises and gymnasium activity. I presume you have checked with the center itself if they don have stuff on hand The center has materials going from 1949 I have to recheck This whole period though because I gone through this before This whole period from the late 20s till the late 40s is not... I didn't know that I was in the gym. I don't know if I was playing basketball or softball at the time. At the time, Minnie was in the balcony watching us, and George Levy asked her to come in.
If she could come in and help them temporarily, they were starting to drive. That's interesting. 33. In 33? Then he went to work temporarily for two weeks. She worked temporarily for 43 years. Who scheduled the games in the center, at that time, in the facility? Gene Brown, the athletic director. He did all that. He did all the scheduling of all the guys and he still had his gym classes. Were there any memberships? Did they charge you anything? No, because we were juniors at the time and under 21 you couldn't become a year. There's no membership under 21, if I remember correctly. I know we weren't members.
We went to a gym, but under 21. Were your parents members then? And at that time there was also the FHH Club, which was the, they were sponsored by Light Wine Bottling Company. Hmm. If you remember that. Light Wine? L-I-T-E-W-I-N-E. Okay, Light Wine Bottling Company. Wasn't that old honey by Glazer? That's Glazer. Wasn't that during Prohibition? Could they bottle wines in? No, they managed. Okay. Well, it was actually soda water. They called it light wine. Oh, really? Okay. Thank you. Do you show the old YMHA established in 1919? Uh-huh. I bring the forties and fifties. We'll just rather enact it for a while. It's the period of the 30s.
What other teams participated in activities during the 1930s? Well, there was, uh... They just made up teams of all the people that, uh... All the fellas that came, made up different teams, played softball in the gym. In the gym they played softball? Right. Sure. Okay. Now, the guys that came... I can give you some names of the people that participated at that time. They weren't AZA members. Okay. Were they members of any particular organization, or they just came and they divided into teams? Okay. What about any other activities other than the sports and athletics? That was pretty much what the, uh, what the, uh, AZA we used to throw dances.
We used to throw dances in the... Well, so did Junior Hadassah. In the, uh, social hall there upstairs. Uh-huh, upstairs. Okay, so the junior had that, well, okay, AZA did Hadassah. What about T-double-O? T-double-O was an older... Yeah. They were already, uh, people in their 30s and 40s when we were, when we were kids 16 to 18. Okay. Did they have any activities? Not, not at the center. Okay. That I remember of Do you remember any T00 during our time No they uh they felt they were too good for the uh IMHA They did have occasional affairs, not a whole lot. They weren't near as active as the younger groups were.
What other groups, uh, what about the F-a- uh, no, the Jonathan Club? Where did they fit in? Did they have any teams? Did they do anything over the center? The Jonathan Club was also like the T- It was a social club. It was like the T-double-O. Was it also the same age group? Not our age. They were older. They were, the Jonathan Club was the older ones. They were older than your group, but they were younger than the T-double-O group. Okay. It's a span of a few years, not a whole lot. Gosh, that's the first time I've heard that word in years, Jonathan. Were there, originally I think it started from Sheriff Israel.
Were there members of Temple and Sheriff Nissel in these groups or were they always either one or the other? No, there was, you mean the T.W.O. and... T.W.O., Johnathan, any of the other groups? They were mixed. Mixed? They were mixed. Almost one-sided, though. In what? Well, very few from the Reform element. Is that what you want to know? Most of them were from the Orthodox element. And at that time, Sheriff Israel was the synagogue. Yes. In other words, the Ferdinand Israel was very, very small. with no participation of any kind. And they also had a remancier show with very little participation. Mm-hmm. Okay Thank you Okay What about some of the other groups?
Other groups, the women they had their, the girls had their junior Hadassah. And the Hadassah Butts existed for a short while. Where did the junior council, were the junior council called the councilettes? No. That was a little younger group. No, the Junior Council was always called the Junior Council of Jewish Women. Okay. And of course the Junior Hadassah and Hadassah Bugs. Okay, were the council that's younger of the Junior Council of Jewish Women, was that a younger group or was that a group itself? It was an individual group, supposed to be fashioned under the auspices of the councils, but it was in existence such a short time, they didn't really do anything.
The Hadassah Buds was on the same order as the Young Judea. The only thing, Young Judea had both boys and girls, and Hadassabah was strictly a girl's girl. When was Young Judea organized here? Probably around 20, 19, 20. What? What club you doing? She didn't tell you that. I belong to that... It would have been in about 19 20 Let me look at some pictures I got here They got some dates on them Ah maybe Twenty Okay When I was going to high school, okay... Were you a sophomore? Junior? I don't really remember this. Let me turn this off. All right. Aleph of 1934. Okay.
A basketball tournament. That's right. Fort Worth YMHA, Dallas AZA, Waco AJY, Dallas JCC, Houston Amos Club, and Fort Worth AZA. This was in 1934, December of 1934. Now let me see if it lists its program. Joe Buck John Cadoe, Leon Clamann, A.N. Siegel This is later, all right, 34, see how See, at that time, Senior Advisory Board George Levy, Chairman E.M. Reichman Yep Harry L. Friedman Jake Landau Herbert Mallison Lewis Tobian. Dr. David Lefkowitz, honorary advisor. Isn't that interesting? Willie Wallman. Willie Wallman was one of the... the, uh... Charter... Charter members. Yeah. Yeah. Um... Now then, let's say... It was at the JCC. Did the JCC enter a team in this AZA competition?
Yes. See, Dallas JCC. That was in 1934. That's right. So that tells you that it became JCC. Right. Let's see if anything else I can find. I didn't even know I had that. Wonderful. Here's the Hadassah bugs. That's right. Here's one earlier than that, December 33, the year before. Okay. Let's see what we find in there. I'm hoping I find somewhere where it listed. Right. Yeah. Indy Heckman was out of the door then. Easter Wild was out. Somewhere it's got the list. See, here we put on a degree. Okay, wasn't that a skit for the convention, the degree of Judas Maccabees? Yeah. It's wonderful. You've got a wonderful scrapbook.
and adoptive program. Mr. President's luncheonist meeting, reassembly, Sheriff Israel, Sheriff Israel Auxiliary This is all getting further along. Alright. Now this is at Forrest High School. My brother A played on the team. Here's my membership card. You know, AZA in 1930, 1931. All right, so it was already organized. Does it say anything about a first group or not? I'm trying to find something. That's 1930, see? Mm-hmm. Wait a minute, wait a minute. All righty. Here it is right here. But if I can just certify that Johnny Smith has been elected membership, I order the Supreme Advisory Council, I'll try to call it. But where's the rest of it?
Something that's been torn off, didn't have a date on it. That's 33. That's 31. Yeah. Did you find your hobo dance picture, honey? Yes. It was in 1936. There's a letter here thanking us for working on the hobo dance in 1936. Now, did the center have anything to do with that other than how they rented the... House that... Did they rent the auditorium or was it a part of a service, you know? I don think they charged They just booked things in you know and first come first served Mm-hmm. Were they still having weddings at the center at that time? Yeah. Here's some different organs.
Here's your FHH club. What year was that? 1931. Popularity dance, FHH Club, FHH Club and the Council of Jewish Juniors, March 8, 1931 at the Jewish Community Center. Okay. That's 1931. Mm-hmm. And it was FHH? And the Council of Jewish Juniors. Okay. So that was their first, their official name? Here's when Junior had done us, no date. I got to show you this. It's my baby picture. That's wonderful. It is wonderful. 81 years old. You don't look it. You don't look it. You're a young 81? Thanks. Hmm. In those days, I used to dress young with the long dresses. That's wrong. Hmm. That's his. I'm going to put him in school.
See, alright, Dallas Young Judea Club, Hadassah Buds, and Junior Young Judea Club, 1937. That was at the Adolphus. It was a convention. FHH Club Invasion, you know, dance, that's in the 32, script, one dollar. Hmm. This is the Court Society. That was Waco. That's where we used to go, C-O-R-T. They had a holiday dance. Hmm That was 1931 Yeah let me find another book I saw the write about the bus accident but I don remember seeing the date on it What bus accident? The condition of the Dallas Jewish Boys and Girls who were injured recently in a bus accident. Waco. Dallas from Waco. That was after we were married, yeah, so it had to be maybe in 34.
Okay, okay now it is. Okay, so now wait a minute. You just had a thing there. On what? Jewish Community Center and an affair of the Young Judea I believe. We just had a program there. AZA championship Sunday. It says Jewish Community Center softballers will defend the state AZA championship. Mm-hmm. Now do you know when that was done? No, Johnny might have an idea about it. Is there any indication over here? Now who are the people that made up that Jewish Community Center team? Well, let me see if I can read them. Well, seems to be slated to participate in the all-day statewide Jewish softball tournament Sunday at Grailton Field, sponsored by the Dallas ACA.
will begin. The first round of pairings are Houston Coplins versus the Park Row Cowboys, Shreveport versus Okun, Tyler versus Dallas, and AZ AZA Blues, Jewish Community Center versus Fort Worth YMHA, Waco versus Clark Row Snakes, ACA versus FHH, but it doesn't. All right, this is next to 1938 invitations. Would it then indicate that it would be 1938, perhaps? Not necessarily. Okay. Because this is a picture here of my brother when they got married and he got married several years before we did. We've been married 58 years. So, uh, I think this would have been in about 1930, 1930, somewhere around 1930. This I'm sure is later than that.
Okay. It's about the AOTAs, weren't it? You've got a, you've got a little card here. AOTA fraternity alumni, Dallas AZA. Really? Were they formed after about when? Yeah, but they weren't AZA. They weren't AZA? They called themselves the alumni of Dallas AZA, but I never belonged to them. There were a few of the alumni from AZA that were in Aota. That's what they called themselves, but... But they got their boyfriends, you know, the kids that they ran around with to join the group. Well I didn belong Jaime and Oscar Yute didn belong Do you remember when they started Or about when they started I don't know.
It's about a couple of years. I guess I have. Let me call it Easter Wild. I'll see when they started. Some of them weren't. Yeah. How many were there when you started? Okay, that would give me the information I want. Thank you. Tell us about... That's what they called them. Alumni of Dallas AZA. Okay. However, as time went on, others were accepted who had never been in the AZA. And they continued as a social group for many years after that. Social only. Okay. Now, what was their tie-in at the Jewish Community Center? Did they just play their games there? Did they have their meetings there?
Both. They had their meetings, they had their games. They carried them. In other words, they had them make reservations for their different activities, whatever they needed. All right, who did they make the reservations with? Do you remember? With the center. I understand with the center, but was there a specific athletic person there? like Dr. Brown in the earlier years? Let's see who took over. No, at that time it was with Abe Sewell. Abe Sewell who was the director. It was more or less a one-man operation. He was employed by the Federation then? Yes, yes, he was employed. And of course with a smaller organization, they didn't need the help like they need today with so many people.
Okay, now then, he did the athletics, what do you call it, the scheduling then, is that right? What about socials you know if somebody wanted to dance you know to use the upstairs or to have a meeting whatever activities there were In other words, he acted like a calendar for him. Did he have a title? Did they tell him, did they call him anything special? Well, he was the director. The director. He was the director of the center or whatever they called it. Okay, well at that point in time they were already the Jewish community center then. So he would have come on when? In the early 30s?
Right. Did he come after Brown was on? Oh, he was after, yes. But when Brown was there, he was there too? too? Both of them were there. They were. Then Brown left and they took over everything. Okay. Why did Brown leave? Do you know? Hello. Where were you before? With the center. Oh, with Sewell. Now he worked there along with Mr. Brown, who was in the athletic department for a while. Do you know why Brown left? Well, Brown was actually a dentist by profession. And I don't know what happened at the time, but whether they couldn't afford to pay him anymore or what, but that was probably it.
He lived over in Fort Worth, and he had to come over here. And so that's probably what happened. About what year? Do you remember about what year Brown loved? He was still there after we were married. I'd say in the early 30s. He did stay on. 34. And you've been married 58 years. So you were married in 1933. So he was still there. Okay. Alright now then there's a little article here on the same page where it says Lou Raffkin at 2017 Browder announces the arrival of a boy May 29th On that same page there an article here that says Jewish Center will observe Mother Day Would that give you an idea as to when that was?
Yeah, in 1933. Okay. It says the annual Mother's Day celebration. 34. Because we married in 33 and Morty was born in 34. Okay, it says the annual Mother's Day celebration will take place at the Jewish Community Center Sunday afternoon at 3 o'clock, at which time a program will be presented. The feature will be addressed by Ms. Elton Oppenheimer, whose subject will be the Modern Mother, a Defense and a Tribute. Ms. Ruth Munzenheimer, accompanied by Ms. Adeline Gita, will give a group of appropriate songs. I remember all of them. Mrs. Mary and Sari Cohen will reread a composite poem dedicated to mothers. Celebration will be opened with an invocation by Mrs.
John R. Smith, one of the sponsors of the Hadassah Bugs, and will be closed with a benediction by Miss Eleanor Goodstein, a local teacher of expression. That's Ratner. Ratner, yeah. All organizations which meet regularly at the Jewish Community Center will participate in the celebration. The Council of Jewish Juniors will have charge of the arrangements and will distribute floral tributes to all mothers who attend. The program will be open to the public. So that's 34. That sounds like Mrs. John R. Smith's write-up. You think so? Okay. All right, so we know there were all kinds of programs going on at the center at that time. And that's really what I'm, you know, the idea of confirming that.
And there was a, Abe Sewell you said? Mm-hmm. Who acted? S-U-W-A-L Sewell. Okay. Was he local? Uh-huh. S-U-W-A-L Sewell. Okay. And he acted as, would you say, the director then? Coordinator or what? Everything. Everything. And he was hired by a federation just to take care of the center activities. Do you remember Deb's brother? Yes. Deb's brother. His older brother. Okay. See you have here, Jewish softball, victors awarded at first banquet. Members of the Jewish softball league sponsored by the Jewish American held their first annual banquet Monday night at the Italian Village Restaurant. Trophies were awarded and winners second place teams. Louis H. Nauvin gold trophy for first place was awarded the Jewish Community Center team while Ben Morris trophy went to the Aota fraternity.
Judy Sepps was Toastmaster Toastmaster speakers included Harry Stone, George Levy, Benny Oken Dr. David Lefkowitz Jr. Delivered the invocation Individual words were made by To Teddy Steinberg Jacob Isaacson, Jack Stern Phil Rosenstein, Simon Levy Simon Smith Eli Levy, Lou Rafton, Dave Rafton Johnny Smith, Eudah Levy, Sam Baxson I'll say about what news is Is the name Harry Stone on there? Harry Stone is on there. You know who Harry Stone is? Walter Stone's daddy. Do you know Walter Stone? I know of him. He was involved with the Jewish Community Center in 1951. He was an active... Harry Stone. He had to work for everything. Yeah. Oh really?
That's when they had Everett's Jewelry. Do you remember Everett's Jewelry there? Very well. Very well. Yes, I do. Very well. Yeah. Okay. So that would have been in 1934. Or what about this last baseball thing? When would that be? It's been the same, I don't know, it'll be 34, 35. That year or the next year, it's just about the same time. Same time, okay. Now you got Houston 10 beats Dallas for Jewish softball title. And the semifinals were the Ramblers beat Ironworks of Dallas, Menswear crew downed. Aota of Dallas, 4-2. Johnny Smith of Morris Menswear was awarded the trophy for being the most valuable player in the tourney at a banquet Sunday night at the Athletic Club.
I tell you something about that Okay I was awarded the most valuable player in the tournament and I didn make the All team And everybody questioned, how can he be the most valuable player in the tournament and not make the All-Star team? Their answer was, they didn't want to give two trophies to one person. All right, was the Jewish Community Center involved in that? Yeah. Did they organize? What was the role? The AOTA is the one that sponsored the tournament. Okay. It says so there. Yes, right. Well, what was the role of the Jewish Community Center? Pretty much getting it together. That's where they'd have their meetings.
They would have their meetings. Okay. Everybody went to any kind of meeting or anything in those days. Okay. The first thing you thought of was the center, because that was, you might say, a centrally located place where people coming from different directions would be the same knowledge. Okay. Did they also have cultural or drama activities or lectures, other than like this Mother's Day lecture? Very few. Did the center ever put any of those together in itself, or did Sewell ever put any of those series together, any special programs together? The center was available for any kind of festivities, anything anybody wanted to put on dances, any kind of program that individual clubs want, but the center itself did not a scheduled art class or whatever you might say, nothing like that.
In fact, it wasn't big enough at that time, the population of Dallas were. Do you have any idea what the Jewish population was in the mid-30s? I know the center budget in the late 30s was only about Okay Of course You know for the director expenses and everything else Things were much cheaper in those days. I used to go to work and bag for five cents on the trolley. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Two and a half cents each way. Mm-hmm. On the center budget, you said towards the later years, the later 30s, the budget was about $3,000. What was that, $37, $38, $39? No, $37, $38. I bumped into it a while ago, somewhere down the line.
If you need it, I'll go back and try to find it again. Okay, that was just before the war years, or a couple years before the war. What about as we got into the war years? As we got into the war? There's 38... World War II. I mean, I have to tell you, I was gone. Say about, we had the SOS drive. You were here for a certain part of it, honey. For what? When they gathered food. Yeah, I helped. I've got a picture of where I was. And the canned goods and everything like that. With the ship overseas. What year? That was in 42.
Yeah, but. 42, 43. year before you went into the series? I went into 43. When did they start with the Armed Services Committee here? Around 40, maybe 41. Was that through the Jewish Community Center? Federation. Federation. But did they work that through the Jewish Community Center. Was that then through Sewell or did they establish another? I don know if he was here then When did Sewell leave That was about the time that he left I think when the war arrived came about We used to have breakfast. We used to take care of the servicemen. We had a big servicemen's program that the Federation sponsored. You want to know when George Levy came here?
Well, now, was George Levy Federation? Mm-hmm. Was he here during the time of Sewell? Yes, part of the time. Part of the time. All right. Then they got rid of Sewell. When did Sewell leave? Did he leave before Resnick? They didn't afford to keep them both. Well now didn't they have different functions? Oh yeah, he wasn't here when Resnick was here. He was gone already. Now was Resnick brought in just for the Jewish community center? No. No, he was Federation. He was Federation. Okay. He was before Levy wasn't he? I mean after Levy. Now, alright, so Levy left about when? I had that on the...
Okay. Okay. In 1973, for about two and a half years. All right, George Levy was here until 1940. When did he come? Do you have that? Do you remember? Okay. No, he came in the 30s, the beginning of the 30s. Okay, so Levy came to the Federation, to be the Federation director in the early 30s and stayed until 1940. Right. Okay, then Resnick took over in 1940. Well, Resnick was there from 40 to October of 43. Okay. and Jack Kravitz from November of 43 to... Jack Gerstensen was in there. No he was at the center. Oh that's right. Now then when did Jack...oh all right so Kravitz came in 43 in October and then he stayed?
Kravitz came November of 43 and he was there until June of 73. Alright. 30 years. And then Walter Levy? Then Walter Levy came in June of 73 and was there until January of 76. Okay, in 1976. Mm-hmm. Was that when Moe came? No. He was after Walter Levy here. Somebody else did it? All right, well let's get back to the center because we've basically got that time frame. Now then you just said Jack... Gershenson. Gershenson? Uh-huh. Gershenson. Gershenson. Gershenson came to the center. Yes, and they had Jack Risk who was also a center director. All right, Jack Gershenson, when did he come to the center?
Did he come after Sillow? Oh yes, this was all after Sillow. About what year did Jack Gershenson come? Was he there at the beginning of the Second World War? Do you remember Jack Rasko? Yeah, he didn't stay here long. Was he after Garrison Center or before him? He needs to be more familiar than me. I don't know. He really would call him. I think there was somebody else in the town. When did the center move out here? 19, late 50s. Late 50s. We were trying to do the same time or a little before our shul was being built. I think we built the first no we built the first half of our shul I think there should be some of us here before Jack Brassley I said I've got anything that showed me otherwise.
All right, now, Minnie has just come up with a document whereby the Federation gave the center $165 in 1933 for their budget for the year. No, that was for the janitor and May for service from the janitor, wasn't it? It says janitor and May Cohen. That was $165 for them. For how much time? It may have been a month because they spent $1,195. It was just little notes. Okay, $1,195. Was that for the year then? Probably. Okay. People wouldn't believe. Did they have Rose Coy, Rose Khan's name in there somewhere? Uh, not here. She was killed in September of 33. Oh, okay. She was the supervisor of Jewish family service.
Was it a family service? Yeah, the Jewish Social Service Bureau is what it was called. Of the Jewish Social Service Bureau. Now was that housed in the YMHA, or the center building? Yes. They were over on the extreme left side of the building. Okay. She was in the old YMHA building. Yeah, but that was the old YMHA building, right. Okay, it was in the JCC. At that point, it was already called the JCC, then. That was when Louis Tobian was president Yeah in 1930 When somebody come in and held her up No one of her cases Case Mm-hmm. Came in, demanded certain things, and she was telling them no, and they got into an argument, took out a gun and shot her right then and there.
She was killed on September the 12th of 1933. Is there any report as to what he wanted, what he expected service-wise? No. You went to work right after that, didn't you? Mm-hmm. That I did. What type of services were they able to offer at that point in time, do you know? Mainly relief for temporary housing, for food. Occasionally it was some... Transits that needed a place to stay overnight. Yeah. Now, with the housing, you're saying transits overnight. Were there other cases where people couldn't afford rentals or whatever and the social worker worked with them and they were able to supply rent? Right. Okay. Did they find them jobs?
Yes. Yes. I had to find them jobs so we wouldn't have to, you know, put them on relief. Now, was that part of Federation or was that technically part of the Jewish Community Center Services at the time? What we've been talking about now, that was a separate grouping altogether, the Jewish Social Service Bureau. That was, it wasn't a committee, it was an organized hand, so to speak, or arm of the Jewish Federation. Okay. They were short of money they applied to the Federation and they got money Okay that was housed in the center Mm Okay. And prior to that, there are records whereby the center helped on some of these things when the Federation people were not there.
So in the E-off hours, they would come directly to the center, and they show that in their records, so there was some overlapping. Probably, probably. Very little though, but there were times that a transient would come in after the Social Service Bureau was closed for the night, or on the weekend. He had arrangements made with the Salvation Army downtown and with the... I think of what the man's name had, like a little hotel, restaurant. I remember Harry Siegel all of them. Had the blue bonnet. Haberman, yeah, Harry Siegel, a lot of times furnished rooms. Yeah, the afternoon hotel. Oh, was that it? Oh, that was before the blue bonnet.
He also had the blue bonnet later. Yeah. And Haberman. Okay. That Michael Westbrook. Right. Okay. Do they only send the vagrants there for food? Mmhmm. Okay. Yeah, otherwise if it was a family, you know, that was practically destined to be right out of a check and that would identify their own things. Mmhmm. Okay. Okay. What are some of the other things then that they, that went on in the Senate? Yeah. Yes. ...the campaign with all of its workers would have their meetings there. We used to handle the reports and everything for the drives, everything by hand, you know. And you had to balance everything out to the penny.
It wasn't like some places where you say, well, so you're off a few dollars, you know, forget it. But, no, I remember a couple of nights I was there until after midnight being sure that everything was reconciled properly. Remember, honey? Yeah, I remember raising help. He was staying there. Now what about, let's talk about the theater. I know theater started, or they had a group of the center players in the later 40s. Were there any theater things going on that you can recall in the earlier days or between that 1930-19, early 1940 time frame? Yes, they had a few programs. I couldn't say who directed them, but I know my brother Nathan was very involved and Idell Rabin was active in the group and Ed Tankus was another one involved.
And, uh, who else, uh... Now, was that in the early or later forties? That was in the early forties. Weren't, uh... Before the war was over? Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. A fellow that taught Hebrew school at Temple of Marium, that family would be involved in it He died not too long ago Well that Tankus isn it Huh Isn that Tankus Tankus Tankus Tankus Weren't they involved at that time? Mm-hmm. That was not during... Edith Mandel, that was her name wasn't it? Edith Mandel was another one active with the group. And I think Mae Lichtenstein, Mae Cohen, and uh... Aaron Spelling got involved. Now it wasn't Aaron after the war when he came back from the service that he got involved?
It was right after that. Well it was in the 40s. Okay but that was the later for you. That was 46. Now was all of this post-46? Pretty much because I know Nathan served in the armed services and some of the others too for that matter. Now did anything go on before World War II? With dramatics? Yes. I shouldn't think so. The Arbitering was quite active, you know, and they brought in different performers from time to time. Did they perform at the center? Well, they had their own building then. It was in the late 20s. The operation took over, or was this, you talked about Gene Brown, was he employed by the YMHA, or you just mentioned him?
Tell us about Gene Brown Gene Brown was if I not mistaken he was his profession he was a dentist lived in Fort Worth He was athletically inclined and he came over as a director This was in the late 20s. Right. Okay. And following him was, uh, Ramotsky? Yes? Ramotsky wasn't the athletic director? No, he was the center, the YMHA, the head of the YMHA. Right. Dov Ramotsky. And then following him was Abe Sewell, who was the director of the YMHA and also headed up some of the programs that they had there. when he left Lou Ratkin was head of the athletic program that they had over there it was mainly an athletic type of an institution they had terrific teams in basketball I don't know that some of the others.
On the other hand there was the FHH club at that time. And then of course the AZA was organized in, I'd say in 19, 19 or 1920. No, 1930. No 30 30 I sorry 1929 or 1930 And as far as any goings on at the center it was through the different clubs renting the place but not the YMHA itself having a program That the way I remember It was the location, it was the building where communal activities took place. About the only thing the YMHA had was its sports programs in the gym. And of course the gym was also used by some of the other groups.
As Johnny said the FHH had teams, AOTA had teams, later on... Yes, at the AZA head teams. AOTA was in about 1933, 32. Later. No, honey, it was before we got married. Do you remember what AOTAs stood for? I was trying to call it Dallas AZA. So you were the graduates of the ACA? That's the ACA, Alex Tzadik, Alex. Alumni of Dallas, ACA. What about cultural programs and groups that had other types of programs other than athletics? Well, they did have meeting rooms. There were some of the organizations that had meetings there. The National Council of Jewish Women had occasional meetings there, not on a regular basis.
Junior Hadassah met over there. Later on, the Hadassah Buds, which is a younger element of the Hadassah, met over there. Of course there were several senior groups, the Hebrew Free Loan and the B'nai B'rith. I don't recall any other special groups, but it was to accommodate for meeting purposes because people didn't want to meet in their homes. And they needed large areas where they had chairs and facilities, you know, they could use for their meetings. Now, YMHA had a do structure, when as long as it was a YMHA. How did they deal with that when people wanted to have meetings at the center and when they ran an athletic program?
Well, nothing interfered with the athletic program of the Y. They did have their due structure. It was of course open to the community to whoever wanted to join. They had a dance floor that the different gloves used for their parties and so on and so forth. Did they lease that? Did they come in and have to lease that or was that a service that Federation punished? There was a slight charge for the use of the facilities. The charge was mostly for utilities. And caretaker, you know, to get things ready or to clean up afterwards. But it was a means for the Jewish people knowing that there was a central location where they could come to meet, to have affairs.
and it attracted quite a group. Okay, now with the pre-war years, the late 30s, how did this change, or what was involved, or how did it grow? Well, during the war, of course, they had the program for the servicemen, I think I commented on that before. Yes. And after the war, there was really no organized programs for the ex-serviceman. They were more interested in trying to get integrated into the general community than anything else. But just before those war years, when the committee was still as a committee, Yes. And the Armed Forces Committee or Services Committee came about. Was that through the efforts of the Federation in itself and then involving people from the community Yes That directly was a Federation program The Federation handled whatever finances were needed when they got into the different activities for the servicemen, getting the cots for them to sleep on when they came in for the weekend, seeing that there had plenty of food for their breakfast Sunday morning and of course involving different girls women young men that were still in the community that were not serving in the armed forces to help in doing what could be done to make the time of the servicemen a better time while they were here.
What about the other activities then? How did that dovetail in with the Armed Forces Committee and was, when did they hire a director for general activities? You have a letter from one of the directors in your scrapbook. I don't recall that they actually hired anyone while they were on Pocahontas. They did. Jean Berlansky, who was there in the 50s already. The lady, uh, this time, wasn't it? Well, she was the secretary. She was in the... Federation secretary. The Jewish Family Service. You're talking about the Eros Kahn that was killed? Yeah. No, that was much earlier. That was before I went to work for the Federation.
But they did have some professionals connected with it. I imagine the materials that the Center has would pick up so much of that that I just don't recall a lot of that. Although I was there there been so much that has happened since that time that it very very vague Okay So then after the Armed Forces Committee there was a greater development of the Center activities or after the post years then Yes, yes. Then the center started really growing, involving a lot more activities, and then of course once they built their building over on North Haven, they started a real new structure there to take care of so much of the activity and the Federation was still the backer so to speak of the activity whenever they needed something they were short of funds for anything like they knew that the Federation would see that it was taken care of and it I did.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Let's go back in time. At one point you mentioned that you had worked for Mr. Hexter. Yes. Before you went to work for Federation. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? What it was like working for him? Oh, he was a wonderful man. He was not the first employer I had when I got out of high school. I did not go to college. I graduated in 1928 and I had a couple of little part-time jobs. One was working with a bankruptcy situation. There was Mr. Guggenheim, Charles C.R. Guggenheim, I don't know if you recall him. Jolly Shoe Company. Jolly Shoe Company, that's right.
I worked there until they got the business straightened out and then I had one or two little temporary jobs and then I went to work for Mr Hexter Actually I started with Manny Reitman E Reitman He was the one that already got it, one that is religion from the ACA. He and Meyer Ungerman formed a partnership and moved in and consolidated their office with Victor Hexter, that's when I went to work for Mr. Hexter. I did a lot of work for him in the real estate and I went down to the courthouse some to check out certain information. I worked on leases and different legal documents that he had.
He was a wonderful, wonderful man. Very easy to work for and with and was very generous, very soft-spoken, a terrific lawyer He had a world of friends. He was at one time on the city council. Then when Harry Youngerman, Meyer's brother, graduated and was ready to go into legal work, He came in with Meyer and it was about at that time that when I got married and Johnny didn't want me to work anymore so I quit. Now did they share offices or did they have a firm together, Ungerman and Hexter? No, it was not a consolidated office. It was a sharing type of office arrangement.
Now, how did he get into the title? Mrs. Hexter. Well, a lot of his work was dealing with abstracts. In fact, I used to love to do that type of work, to trace down ownership titles of property as it passed from one to the other. That's the part of the work that caused me to go down to the courthouse. I used to check in with the county clerk's office on many things, and then sometimes there was something in probate that had to be straightened out. His work gradually moved into almost strictly title and abstract work. He gave up so much of his other legal work because I think he was more interested in that type of work.
Of course, the Hexter title and abstract, which he really organized, but he had his son Louis be in charge of it because he didn't want to relinquish his attorney status or the contacts that he has, although later on when he did close up the office, he did have an office over there himself. Now, I've been told that he was the first to insure titles in Dallas, is that correct? He started the insuring. Do you know anything about that? I don't know that that is so. There was the Guarantee Title Company and I think one other... His brother, wasn't it? Many worked for Victor Hexter. And they have a brother, J.K.
Hexter. J.K., yes. J worked in Title Work too but he was not part of the Hexter Title and Abstract Company Was he also a lawyer JK I think he had had some legal background, but he didn't actually practice, I don't think. He was involved more with humanitarian programs. He was more interested in the campaigns in the community. While Victor Hexter was interested, he didn't take the time like his brother Jules did to take care of so many of the things that had to be done. Were there a lot of Jewish property owners in the 20s? Oh yes, yes. Especially in the north side of town, practically everybody owned their own home in the Jewish community.
It could be a little small, almost shack, but they owned it. Even when they moved to the south part of town, they also owned property. Mr. Hexter was the guiding light in so much of the ownership and transfer of titles and properties because everybody just thought he was the top and he was. He was very honest. He didn't do anything that he felt would affect any of the clients that he had. Everybody put their trust in him and they knew that he would do the right thing, which he did. Now you said guiding light, in what way? Did he urge them to buy property? Did he guarantee?
Well, sometimes he did if he knew that somebody was thinking of leasing or renting a place and I guess knowing what their finances were you thought they would do better if they would take out a mortgage but buy the place even if it wasn paid for right at the time Did he help finance as well or just? He helped a lot of people who didn't have the finances. He withheld his fee even sometimes. Well, he didn't charge a lot for his services anyway, but so many of the people, he didn't make any charge at all because he knew that they didn't have too much money.
Excuse me. On the green border? No. You said something to us. Thanks. You said you referred to North Dallas at that time. Mm-hmm. What are some of the streets that that borders or that incorporates? Well, Caroline was the main street. There was Ashland, there was Alamo, there was Highland, Highland was more of a business type street. Sumter. Sumter was another one, yes. It wasn't a big area. We lived on Collins Street. Yeah, Collins was another one. What was the border between what and what on Collins? Collins was right off of Griffin, not too far from where the Times Arrow was last located. What about Maple?
Was that in the... There were some Jewish people, no, it was a little far removed. There were people that lived on Maple Avenue. In fact, I had an aunt and uncle that lived on Maple Avenue. It was It was a little nicer area. People that were a little, had more means bought because the homes were larger and they had large lawns and they could afford nicer things What about North Pearl Was that part of the area North Pearl kind of bordered It was between Maple and the other streets There were a few people that were living on North Pearl In fact, the Andrus family lived over there, Burr's family lived over there.
And Rubinette had a grocery store on there. Rubinette had a grocery store over there, yes. How did these people, or how did the Hexters and some of the others of that time era deal with Federation? Were they involved? Were they not involved? And how did that all tie together in terms of... Yes, they were involved. In fact, Jules Hexter, as I said before, was a fundraiser. He was one of the big workers in the campaigns. Victor Hexter helped financially but it was Jules who did most of the work so far as the organization part and getting people to pitch in and help give and all that he doesn't have as much to keep his himself occupied with as Victor did so he He lent his talents in that direction.
Was the whole community involved in Federation campaign in those days? How was that at the time? No, there were a lot of people that didn't believe in the Federation. A lot of people who thought that the Federation shouldn't help the Mishulahs. They felt that they spent too much money, whether it was in their printing or in other expenses and they felt that if they wanted to give to somebody or to poor people or what not, that they would. Of course, a lot of the people, the Michollas had blue boxes here. Are you talking about Jewish National Fund boxes or other boxes for schools? No, no, other blue boxes and boxes for orphanages.
Pushkis. Yeah, real pushkis. All right. In fact, sometimes I think we may have had almost a dozen of them tacked up on the wall in the kitchen. In those days there was a separation, I say a separation, a difference between the Reform and others. In other words, the Orthodox Jews referred to the Reform, not as Reform, but as the Deutsche, the German Jews. And they didn't mix close in those days. About what time era, give me a year, you know, approximate year. Isn't it in the late 20s, 30s, 40s even, the early 40s? I remember when I was a little boy, little boy, 10, 11 years old, they had the old Colombian club and it was located at Pocahontas and Irby.
Am I right? Right. And, of course, in those days, Barthcock didn't mix with him at all. And it wasn't It wasn't until later on, in fact, when I joined the AZA, when we organized the AZA, Henry Miller Jr. was one of them that went with us, and he was from the reform. really in time they've consolidated but it years ago the orthodox felt the need for charity much much more so than the reform did. The reform people as a whole had more money and if something hit them the right way well then they would give to it but it was the Orthodox element who really built and was the foundation for getting things really started in the community here.
You take like people like... Also, that time is when the Jewish people started moving from North Dallas, and they moved to, not South Dallas, but they called it South Dallas. They were living over on Browder Street, Gould Street, Holmes. Well, we lived on St. Louis Street. Wall Street, there was Marion Street. That was more... Hackard Street, that was what they call South Dallas, but it wasn't. That was, you might say, the center of Dallas. That was already in the 20s, or early 30s. Had that been part of the Cedars? Had that area been part of the Cedars, which was an earlier neighborhood that was originally developed in the 1870s?
Yeah, Cedar Lawn School was not too far from there. Where was Cedar Lawn School? On Irving Street, between Sanger and the tracks, around close to where Chef's Bakery was. Mm-hmm. The Chef's Bakery was over on Irving Street. Well, I see your lawns good ones, too. Irving and what was the Cross Street guy, Chef's Bakery? It was a little up from Corinth. Okay. Okay. Now those- Kelly? Yeah, Kelly was the actual little street there. Now those homes, when they moved from Old North Dallas to this area you're talking about, were those older homes, or did they build any new homes in that area? They were homes that were already built, but they weren't old homes.
They were big homes, though. They were Some of them were large two Big sliding mahogany doors They separated rooms And not an eight ceiling like you have today but much higher Did many of the people have cars? No. No, I'll tell you. Not nearly as many. Minnie's family had one, and I'm going to tell off on her. they had one of the first cars it was a big Wynton 6 and it had lights like lamps on the outside of it everybody called it the ambulance yeah wild ambulance about what year was it this is within 20 late 20s. Late 20s is right. Yes, the old Winton VI.
Alright now with the separation of the Orthodox and the Reform, the Daichyshire, was Sheriff Thistle part of the Orthodox at that point in time? They were orthodox, they were not. In fact, they had a separation of men and women. Did that hold true on the Park and Aitken show when they built that in 1919? Women were upstairs and about. Women were upstairs. Okay. There were none of the women that were seated down on the show and drifting into a conservative situation, and you were talking about in 1933 when you were married? We were married in 1933 at that time. They were orthodox, not strict because, if I'm not mistaken, at that time they let men and women sit together.
But as far as other traditions, other tradition as far as religion was concerned, other than men and women sitting together, it was Orthodox. What were the services like at that point in time? Were they all in Hebrew or was there some English used? Do you know? Do you remember? It was a mixture. Not as much as today but A lot of it was in the Hebrew but there was a sprinkling of English in the service And gradually it got a little more and they cut down a little bit on the Hebrew. What about the choir? Sheriff Israel, I believe, had an all, their choir was all male.
and there are pictures in the golden book of the all-male choir. Yes. And Reverend Fromm started their choir over there. And in fact, Minnie's... My brother Eser. My brother Eser. Was in the choir. And after that they had, oh, this county's name is Mary June Island. Kaplan. Kaplan. Canter Kaplan. Kaplan and Rabbi Gold married many of them. They were all kind of Kaplan got killed in an automobile accident. I go back before then when they had Rabbi Wernie here or before that when the shul was on when Sheriff Israel was on Jackson Street had Rabbi bust me can you tell us a little bit about the day what it was like frankly the only thing I remember is the Hebrew school because I was just eight or nine years old at the time.
And I know we were living on St. Louis Street and I had to go through the market to go to Hebrew school. We walked in those days. And like I say, it was on Jackson Street. I remember a red brick building, and I remember Rabbi Bosnick, and that's about all I remember. From there they moved to Park Avenue. And of course when they moved to Park Avenue they expanded quite a bit. A lot more people joined. They had their Sunday school class as well as their Hebrew classes. I remember one of my Hebrew school teachers. he's still living today. Sam Stillman. You know Sam Stillman?
I believe so. Small man? In fact, I talked to him the other day. Sam's now well, he was a teenager or older and I was a kid, eight, nine years old at the time, so. But Rabbi Wernie was with his two sons. Two sons were the teachers. I got in a fight with one of them. Hebrew school. How old were those kids when they started teaching Hebrew? Hebrew school. You said he had two sons and they both taught Hebrew? They taught Hebrew. Okay, how old were they when they started teaching Hebrew? How old were they? Yes, about how old? His sons. They were grown men.
Okay. I guess they were in their 20s. Okay. Were there any student teachers at that time? Were they had teenagers? Sam Stillman was. He was a teenager when he started teaching? I think so. I think Sam Stillman was. Had he been one of the other students, older students, or had he come from Europe? Do you know? That I don't know. And was trained? Okay, let's go back to Federation and the role of the Reform group at that time, since many of them were not supportive. How and when did they start coming into Federation in terms of working and being more positive? Well, almost in war years.
That's where Judy Ships had a big hand in it, right? How was he able to do that Well he was a very generous man He did well in his business He was a real community leader He had a world of friends and he was able to, you might say, cajole and tempt others of his friends who were not normally as generous or liberal, but he talked them into making sizable contributions and participating. A lot of his friends interested and shamed a lot of the reformed people into giving money because of the needs of the United Jewish Appeal when they were doing such a terrific job.
He's the one who really started the knitting between the Orthodox and the Reformed Jews in this community. He more than anybody else I think. And he got different people to do things. He got the rabbis to get involved in different things and to have their sermons geared in the right directions more so than they did before. And, well... He was just a strong man in the community as a whole. I think I mentioned to you once before that some of these clubs that didn't allow Jews to belong, and he jumped on somebody in the Dallas Athletic Club, and they changed their... Yeah, and a couple of the other instances, too.
There was no... Cut out a lot of the anti-Semitic stuff in the community. Can you give me one instance for example or some of the things that he was able to do in that area Well Johnny was just commenting about that and then getting the Marcuses and a lot of the bigwigs in the community to recognize the fact that as Jews themselves, they should participate and help more than they are and were doing. And a lot of them, we were surprised, came through with very nice contributions. And, of course, one would go after the other one and say, well, I did this, now you come on and do it.
and before you knew it, the change resulted from dependency on the Orthodox group to dependency on the Reform group. They gradually got to the point where they gave more than the Orthodox did and it helped to smooth out a lot of the feelings between the two. Some of the Orthodox even joined the temple and... Did they retain their membership? Yes. Did they retain their Orthodox membership and still join the temple? Yes. To let the reformed people know that they were interested in what they were doing and what they believed in, not that they were such firm believers in orthodoxy themselves, but, you know, just to show that they wanted to recognize.
About what year was this? What era was this that you're talking about when he was able to... Well, this is after the war. Okay, in the late 40s? We're getting into the late 40s. the mid-forties and then later. Now how was it that Julius Sheps was able to assume that type of role? What was it about him or what did he do to bring him to that situation? Well you know he was always interested in sports and his brother George you know has always even now has retained his interest in sports He still living in his 90s And he did things in the general community.
He worked for the United Way, although it wasn't called the United Way then, for the different children's hospitals, for the other hospitals, for health programs, different institutions scattered all over the country. He was a big worker in everything. And his influence was felt beginning even with the non-Jewish community community to the point where some of the Jewish people in the Reform element felt that, well, if the non-Jews were recognizing him, they wanted to participate too. And from that participation, it brought it into the Jewish element. And that's when it really started to build up. Now, let's go back about Sheriff Israel and Jewish education, or if you want to add anything else about that era before we go...
No, if you have some specific questions, why, that's one thing. How did Teferoth, before we leave this area of the Shills, how did Teferoth figure into all of this picture? Well, Teferoth was a small little shul in North Dallas and moved out south on Grand Avenue, you know, when the movement of the Jews was in that general direction. and the people that belonged to Ferith, I would say, were not financially as well off as the people that belonged to Sherith. And then, too, there was the Romaneshi show that some people figured they wanted to separate themselves from the others they wanted to observe like they wanted to observe and so They had their own shul, they had their own cemetery.
And Teferrith, in the meantime, had some people who were, I wouldn't say wealthy, but they were in key spots in the community. and then when the people started moving from way out in South Dallas to the area out here, they decided, well, it's time to think about building their own little show out here. The little by the name of Katz, Max Katz, gave them the property on Grand Avenue. That's where they built. And then when they left and moved over here to Hillcrest, they started out with just part of the building because they couldn't afford the rest of it. And they had campaign, they raised money, and then they built the rest of the chivalve.
You mentioned Arnche Svard. Was that Solis Svardim at first? Yes. And where were they housed before they moved to Park Row in the 30s? At the Romainish Show? The Romainish Show, yes. They were at Browder in Pocahontas. Was it Browder? Router and Pocahontas, they had a big house that they bought. That they converted into like a synagogue. And then, of course, when... I went to Hebrew school over there for just a small period, for a small, short time. They had Rabbi Blumenthal at that time. You remember Rabbi Blumenthal? How long was he here? How long was he here? About how long? About what year I say I trying to compare my age I understand Go ahead I say 1916 1917 1918 About that time.
Because I remember going to Hebrew school over there. And he was very interested in kids and showing them a good time. And at that time they had a can of Rosenblatt, one of the greatest Jewish canons in the world. Yes, a lady Rosenblatt. And he was having a concert at Fair Park. And Rabbi Blumenthal somehow managed for the whole Hebrew school to go to this concert. and I was one of the wins. And this concert still rings in my mind. Okay, now the concert itself, were there a lot of people there? Was it a sellout? Oh, yeah. You said it was at Fair Park? Right.
In the auditorium? No, it was in the, at that time what they called the Coliseum, The agricultural building, the way I remember it. The Coliseum. Is that still there, the Coliseum? It's been remodeled. It's all been remodeled. But the basic structure is still there, the Coliseum that they used to there? I'm not sure. You're not sure? I'm not sure. Okay. Okay. And the way I remember Rosenblatt, very small fellow, with a powerful voice. And I remember him on the stage with a piano player, just he and a piano player. And, oh, he sang quite a number of songs in Hebrew, but he did sing several songs in English One song I remember in particular The Last Rose of Summer That was one of the songs that he sang in English And of course he got standing ovations And he just sang until he couldn sing anymore Was it chazonesha music or all kinds of music?
All kinds. Some chazonesha music, some Yiddish songs, and some English. Okay, let's talk about Jewish education. First, about what time, what era was that? About what year? Do you remember how? I went to Shereotism. Well, let's talk about the Rosenblatt concert. That was about, I'd say, 1918. Okay. Somewhere along there. Okay. Take or give a year. Now let's talk about education and going to the various Hebrew schools or religious schools. Well, my education at Remanis' Shul didn't last very long. And I went to Hebrew school, I think, four years at Sheriff Israel. In those days, you didn't have to be a member of the shul of the congregation to go to Hebrew school, because I'm positive that my folks couldn't afford a membership at Sheriff Israel.
Anyway, I remember behind the shul, behind the sanctuary, they had two big rooms upstairs, and that's where the classes were held. And in those days, as far as the education was concerned, and as far as learning bar mitzvah, mofters, so on and so forth, all students knew everybody else's mofters. And frankly, when my last days at the Hebrew school, I could go to service on Friday night, and I could do the whole service without even looking at the book. Of course a lot of that gotten away since I left there And I remember my barabitzvah in 1923 That summer my sister had a she had a scarlet fever.
And when you're scarlet fever, all the children were quarantined, and I couldn't go to Hebrew school. Still out that October, I wanted my bar mitzvah, and after the quarantine was over, I went back to see about my bar mitzvah. Rabbi Wernie, the old man, not the sons, the old man, called me in his office and wanted to test me out. And before I got through, he said, you're going to have your bar mitzvah. And I did. And I never did graduate, or I don't even remember him having a graduating class in those days. After a boy was bar mitzvahed. Some of them continued on, but I didn't.
Is it possible or would you know if that were perhaps the Hebrew School of Dallas was a community Hebrew School? Because Hebrew School of Dallas was housed in Sherath Israel at one point in time. That was with Levine? Before Levine's time. The records show that Hebrew School of Dallas was housed in the Sherath Israel building and then in 1928 they bought their own building. That was after my time. Okay. Like I say, 1923 is about. I finished up. After my bar mitzvah, I never did go back. Were there other kids that went to the Hebrew school, a lot of other kids that went to the Hebrew school that did not have membership in Cherithas, or the families that didn't have membership, do you know?
I don't really know. I can tell you some I had a co-host of the people that some of the kids that went at the time. I didn't. Sherman Kaplan. You know Sherman Kaplan? Mm-hmm. I had a co-host. Sam Kaufman, Abe Sussman, David. Someone went up there. Now what was your Jewish education like, Minnie? You didn't go to Hebrew school. No, I didn't go to Hebrew school at all. When I was growing up, I went to Sunday school at Tvereth Israel, a very brief period of time. And then I quit and didn't go back again until the folks joined Tvereth Israel. Then I went to Sunday School over there and I went there for a number of years.
I was confirmed over there. In fact, I was the valedictorian of our class. And after that I went to a post-graduate class and then I became a teacher over there. I taught over there for several years too. This was when Louis Siegel was the head of the Hebrew school, Sunday school, and some of the teachers were paid, I think it was either three or five dollars a Sunday. I couldn't understand why they paid. I figured it should all be free. I didn't get paid. I thought nobody did, but there were two or three or four that did get paid, and I said, well, if you're not going to be fair, if they're not going to contribute their services like I do, well, then I'm not going to come and teach anymore.
So what happened after that, I don't know, but after several years there, I quit. About what year was that, or what era, time frame? 1927 No it was later than that because I graduated from high school in 28 and this was after I was out of high school. I was confirmed in about 24, 25, somewhere around there, but It was close to 30. Okay. Did your family hold more than one membership in congregations? One at a time. Okay. No, originally they were at Tifereth Israel, and then they left Tifereth Israel, and they went to Shereth Israel. And then they were members over at Shereth Israel, oh, for many, many years.
And then when Tefereth Israel resumed its activities and seemed to be doing pretty well, well then my daddy went back to Tefereth Israel. Did that have anything to do with location? You said resumed activities. He became president. Did he join Tefereth Israel before he became president again? Oh, sure. What activities, or was it a matter of movement? Well, it was just a matter of being together and knowing everybody, your family, your friends all belonged, and so we belonged, you know. They had occasionally a dinner or some kind of a social affair at the synagogue, but they didn't have too many classes or anything even over on Grand Avenue.
They had a kitchen, they had their hall, they had of course the sanctuary itself, but that's about all. Her and Daddy was president for 14 15 years About what year From when to when Oh that I got in the other room I don recall Earlier you had mentioned that when you moved to South Dallas area to Corinth, I guess, it was closer to Sheriff Israel. Is that why you joined Sheriff Israel? Well, when we started going to Sunday School over there, then the folks joined so we could go. It was on account of the kids more so than anything else. Did it have anything then to do with your move to south of the downtown area?
When we were on Corinth Street, that's when we joined. Okay. So that was when you joined, you moved, then that correlated. Okay. What about organizations when you were a kid? Were there Jewish organizations or many Jewish organizations when you were very young? There were some. We had, for instance, with me, I was a member of the National Council of Jewish Women's Junior Group. They call it the Junior Council. Hadassah had a junior Hadassah. Those were the two major ones for the females. Then there was the AZA and Young Judea. I mustn't forget Young Judea because I was very involved in that. I was state president at one time.
what year? Was it when you were in high school? Was it after high school? In high school, uh-huh. And the Young Judea group was a very active group in its education program and social activities. There was a Texas Young Judea group that sponsored conventions in different cities we participate in Then of course as we grew out of those you get into the adult groups and when I married I was still active in the council and especially in Hadassah, Junior Hadassah. In fact, I was president at that time and they sent me on a trip up to Chicago. They were having a national convention up there.
It was the first time I had gone to a national convention. Do you perhaps know when Young Judea was organized here in Dallas? I don't know, through some of my old books I may have some information. It must have been around... This is Ginger Jacobs and I'm with Minnie and John Smith again and it is now March the the 24th, 1992, and we're continuing on an interview about organizations that Minnie belonged to and what it was like as she was growing up. Now, Minnie, what were some of the organizations that you were a member of as you were growing up? Well, in addition to the Young Judea groups, and there were a couple of different ones, not only here in Dallas but throughout the state.
There was the Junior Hadassah, the Junior National Council of Jewish Women. Basically, those were the three Jewish organizations. Of course, through the community center there were programs that we had, but they were not about the religious nature and they were mainly Social, very social. Camaraderie, girls getting together mainly to have parties and invite the young fellows to dances and organizational activities. The AZA boys group was active at that time and later on an AOTA organization for the young men was organized. Were they solely social? What were some of the civic functions that they had? Well, of course, through the Young Judea and the Jum'a Hadassah, their interests were in blue boxes, in anything relating to Israel, to Palestine, as it was known then, trying to raise funds, to help in whatever way we could help.
You talked about the blue boxes. What were those blue boxes? Tell us about it. The Jewish National Fund, blue boxes. As distinguished from the Pushki boxes that the different orphanages and aged homes over in Palestine would send around to the different communities. Tell us a little bit about the boxes that the Pushkis represented. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Well, I know in our home we had anywhere from a half a dozen to a dozen boxes that were tacked onto the door leading into the kitchen. And whenever there was anything special a special event a joyous occasion or something to be especially thankful for We all put in our pennies or nickels dimes whatever change we had as a means for helping the underprivileged.
All right, so what about some of the others now? This was a regular pattern in your home. What about some of the other people? Was this a general pattern throughout the community that you know of, or was it just on your home that people responded that way to the various charities? Well, I think so many of the people felt the same way. You go into most of the houses, you'd see maybe not as many pushkis as in our home, but there would always be two, three in every house. And people believed that. That's why as they grew, they knew the worth of charity and believed in helping others.
And it has stayed with them and with their children down through the ages. About how many, what years? Give me a time frame on that. Oh, these organizations and all, that would have been from the time I was, oh, between 14 and upwards, mainly around 16, 17 years of age. From 1925. close to the time that I graduated from high school, which would have been in 1928. Now what about the Pushkys, as far as the placement of Pushkys and the Mischloch that would come, you know, and collect periodically from the Pushkys, like all of the various charities. About what era did that cover? Well, it seemed like from the almost time, from the earliest point that I could remember till we moved from Caroline Street after Corinth even then we had them and into probably the 30s Did it go to the war years or through the war years that system No, I don't think that long.
Because in 1933 when we got married, I don't recall more than maybe one Pushki that we had a favorite, you know, that you retained through the years, but otherwise most of the other Pushkis were gone. At that time, that's when your federation came in or whatever it was, and they took over and your donations were made. They encouraged the donations to be made. They had a special committee for the institutions and they tried to encourage people not to give to the individual shall we say schnorrers, but to give what they felt they could spare to Federation and Federation dispersed it after they had had a chance to study the organizations to be sure that they were worthy of support.
How did that come about that they were able to do that? Was there a pattern? Well, the directors at the Federation would write to the different institutions or when the representatives would come in with their literature. And of course, as you would guess, so many of the people traveled around. They were able to, for instance, contact the places in New York or Chicago that were the local servicing agents for the ones in Palestine and that way they got a better picture of what they did so that they didn't feel they were just giving it to the person going around collecting the money as a means for his making a livelihood out of it and the funds not actually doing what the people felt it would be doing if it went to the organization the Diskin Society or some of the others that were over in Israel Would you say, if you were to give that a time frame, would you say it was as late as the 40s?
It could have been, because this would have been after we were married. Probably the late 30s into the 40s. That continued at the Federation even much longer than that up until probably the 60s that they had this special committee set up, a certain part in the budget, to give to the religious institutions and agencies. And they had rabbis, yes, even during the war. There were rabbis and religious people on the committee, as well as lay people, lawyers, people who were level-headed and felt that they wanted a proper distribution and allocation of the funds. Now, as far as, I want to go back a little bit to local organizations, the GASA, whereby they were doing other than social.
What were the types of activities, you know, like, say Hadassah, what were some of the activities that Hadassah used to raise funds and how was it with this? Well, as we were growing up, past the young Judea age, we started in young Judea, then we graduated into junior Hadassah, we had different kinds of classes. We had different fundraising activities, we had dances, we had raffles, we had actors, plays maybe, or that type of programs that we charged money for, raised money that way, and we were able to realize sizable amounts for what was given at that time. Now what about Council of Jewish Women? The Council of Jewish Women, the junior group, was mainly a social type of group.
While they did a certain amount of welfare work locally, they worked quite hand in hand with the senior council. They were guided by what they felt were the thinking of the different groups and they weren't as active a group as the Junior Hadassah was in the different activities. They had their monthly meetings and they'd go away for a weekend trip or camp out to mineral wells or something like that to keep the girls together so that they would be able to work better together. Originally, we had thought that most of the girls in the council would have been from the temple group, but it didn't work out that way.
It was mainly from the Sherath Israel and a mixture of girls whereas in the Junior Hadassah there were no temple girls in that Now then this was during the teenage years when you were teenagers right In the junior council. What about by the time they got to council and what happened? Was that true? Was that the same picture as they got older and came into the Council of Jewish Women? Was there a change? Quite a change. In fact, the Junior Council pretty much went out of existence. There were a few of the girls who went into the parent organization, very few though, But they quit being together, they quit socializing, and just didn't continue with meetings or anything else.
The same thing happened with the Junior Hadassah. After a certain period of time, the girls that were in Junior Hadassah were supposed to, when they reached a certain peak, go into the senior Hadassah, and very few of them did. And the junior Hadassah went by the wayside too because of that. The organization, the Hadassah Buds, was a group a little younger than the junior Hadassah. So I tried to keep it going for a while because I felt that there should be a group who could carry on and help in the community the same way that the Junior Council did. And since the Junior Hadassah was at a point where they were kind of going out of existence, the Hadassah Buds more or less took over, but it was only functioning for a couple of years and then most of those girls quit too wasn a strong enough reason they felt to keep going So they didn go to meetings they didn participate or anything else I sponsored that group for a couple of years.
We had a good group of girls in it, and they enjoyed the meetings and the programs and everything. They raised funds. They had a good time. when they started dating you know. About what time era for, are you talking about Junior Hadassah? Junior Hadassah that was up into the early 30s because when I got married I was the state president of Junior Hadassah at that time and I went to the National Convention up in Chicago that was right after I got married in 33 and it was shortly after that that the Junior Hadassah founded. And what about the Hadassah Buds? Those were the younger group That was the younger group, yes.
They were in existence to about the same time, maybe a little bit later, the Junior Hibasa. It wasn't the same kind of group. didn't have the same feelings for organization work that the Dean of Havas had. We were quite a good group. Do you have any idea why that was so? Was it because of age? You know how it is when girls grow up and they start dating fellas. They were afraid I guess that they got too involved in organization work, they wouldn't have time to go out on their dates and this one seemed to be a little jealous of that one. What was the age range of the Hadassah birds From what age to what age they were It was about from 16 to about 19 And of the junior Hadassah?
The junior Hadassah, they went until they were almost, some of them close to 30. Same thing with the council. We used to always say that the girls that belonged to both of those groups were ones that were going to be all boys. And I think that was one reason that it kind of broke up the groups. So then the junior Hadassah and the junior, or the junior Hadassah then would be like the young marrieds, or could have been a young married group, and then they'd go into the senior Hadassah group. Yes, yes. If until what year did that system last? Or about, you know, the era?
When did it change? Into the 30s, about the middle 30s I guess. Get that long. And with the councilettes? The junior councilettes? The U.S. were a small group. They weren't too active. Some of the senior council members wanted to involve their daughters mainly into council work to let them grow up and grow into the different community work that they did. But I don't think they lasted but maybe a couple of years. And those years would have been when? Probably comparable to the Hadassah buds. In the early 30s then? Uh huh. Okay. Now what about young Judea? Young Judea is something else. When we were going to high school, that would have been a year.
Around the 24s, 25s, somewhere in that time period, the young Jabeah was very active. I don't know why I was very actively involved in it, as were so many of the others. We had a ball. It was, of course, a mixed group. We had different programs, we had regular meetings, we had state meetings, there was a state organization. Radal Blumenthal was one of the pushers and movers of the young figure. and we have different activities, we have very interesting programs, key speakers, educational forums. Did that have perhaps something to do with The group was organized and there were a little girls? Yes, I think it was the whole day.
Do you definitely remember about how long we had up in the Gulf State of Dallas? About in the long. Oh, he was here alone in the American. Well, of course, from Waco, you know, being in Waco, he came up to Dallas quite frequently. I can't believe he was involved in programs and activities here as well as in Waco. And then when he came to Dallas itself I would say he was here several years Yes but he was there before too You don't think so? We're going to have some information with the IRFAC about him. Oh, yeah. As far as activities, what about the general design movement in general at that period of time?
Was that an active group? Was it not too active? They were trying to get organized pretty much at that time, and they didn't have a big membership. They tried to involve as many people as they could, especially from the Sheriff Israel funds. Zesmer was active in it, Ivy Dieter, A. and Kaplan, I don't know if that was A.J. Smith, It wasn't, as I said, too big a group, but they got together, they were very actively involved in their program, they had meetings regularly, they had fundraising affairs, they They had dinners, banquets, there were women who worked with them of course, you know, through the gossip groups and it lasted quite a while but it eventually kind of heated up too.
About when? The Maybrift in the meantime was kind of building up during the latter part of that George Levy was involved with the May Brift and later took over the financial work of the May Brift. They started increasing their membership and more or less in competition with the COA. They had records from the B'nai B'rith that went back, I think, even before 1900 for that matter. But it was just a small handful of people. Gradually though they started growing to the point where they developed quite a membership. Let's talk about ZOA in relation to the members in Temple as well as Sherith Israel and to to Fereth Israel in the 20s and the 30s.
Was there a group from the temple that was involved with the ZOA at all? with a ZOA, well I think Sam Miller and Annie Mittenthal, and I'm sure there must have been a few others that had a very strong feeling and worked with the group. Now Sam Miller was Henry Miller's daddy. And Henry Miller Sr.'s daddy. There weren't too many people, especially from the Temple Emanuel group, that favored or had the same interests that the people from Sheriff Israel had as it related to Zionism or any of the other activities It's fair to Israel. They were much more so because after all, you know, you talk about Eretz Israel.
Well, that's their baby. And Tefereth, what about the people at Tefereth Israel? The people at Tefereth Israel were very involved, at least a handful of them were pretty involved in the ZOA. They weren't wealthy as we knew wealth to be at that time. More of the wealth was in the Sheriff Israel, key leadership, and they were the ones that headed up the activities. At that time, Sheriff Israel was a very, very small organization. They had over 50 members. Give me a time frame. On that? Mm-hmm. In the early 30s? 30. That would have been about the time that we got married. And it started to grow.
We were married in 33 and it was shortly after that that they corralled my husband into doing different things relating to the synagogue and got him started and brought in some of the other people who were a little younger. Now, the American Council for Judaism had an office here in Dallas. With Mr. I. Edward Tonkin? Yes. Yes, and his son incidentally carries on the work that his dad did. When they started, there were several people that were very, very much opposed to the State of Israel, to Zionism, to anything relating to that. When it came to a meeting of any kind, a board meeting or anything else, you couldn't take a step without somebody trying to hold back or interfere with certain plans or programs that most of the board had in mind for the Federation to do.
I, Edward Tonkin, as the head of the American Council for Judaism, was the key stopper. He and the Hoodkins and I think Crossman was one of them, Jerome Crossman, and there may There might have been one or two others that tried to do what they could to keep the Dallas community from supporting the activities relating to the State of Israel, Palestine, to anything in that direction. Did Fred Florence participate in that group as well? He was a financial helper to that group, but down deep I think his feelings were with the general community. I know at one time they figured that they could ask him to side with the American Council for Judaism and in certain things because they were his close friends, he thought that he had to do certain things Actually I don really think the students are that deep What about Hexter No, Hexter was not.
In fact, Julius Hexter was the head of the drive to raise money to help when the American Jewish Joint Restribution Committee was functioning, and the United Palestine Appeals were having their independent drive. There was no bigger work before them than the Jewish ministers, and of course that involved different communities, so that you couldn't say that you were under them Now, how about a time frame on these guns? When did they start becoming a part of the Federation program? Well, when I first went to work for the Federation in 1933, I didn't want to work like that. And there's a few, Ryan Booth, and Johnny, George Levy, asked me if I could help run a campaign.
This was a cartoon with some pure sexism in that time. Oh, he's temporary. Yes, he did this. There wasn't a whole lot to do, but he had to have somebody that he felt was a good office worker to be relied on and counted on to do a good job. I talked to John and I told him I'd like to talk to him, I'd like to hear him, especially if he's coming to the separate group. He loved me too, but I talked to him too. So, I went to work up there. The work lasted more than two weeks, it lasted several weeks. I say maybe close to two months until all the detail and everything was wound up And about that time, we were not at all right here, not even getting started.
and you know if I'd just go on and work for them too because I'm really campaigning, I have been fearful, I'm very active, I could be depended on and I'm going to try again and ask me I can talk some more so I'll be able to do my long campaign ran into another until they formed the Federation to pick up the arms of the United States. All right, now then, if these were different appeals, about when did they form the and the land where it incorporated all of these jobs. You got to imagine one generation was 80... 80-40. These individual campaigns operated separately for, oh, maybe three or four years into the late 30s.
Beginning... Now whether there had been some campaigns, I'm sure there must have been before I started learning for them. Although I didn't know about them. But maybe after about three or four years, we would have a meeting and decided to combine the arms into the wrong body. That was before 1940. Then it was the opportunity to have a Jewish appeal, then of course the major beneficiary of the Jewish Federation. Now American Council people in terms of Federation campaigns during those years Did they not support any funds going to Israel prior to the establishment of Israel Or was it after the interim, the war years? Did they follow suit?
How does that work? I think they gave very little amounts to different appeals before it became United Jewish Appeals. They picked out the different campaigns, maybe one particular campaign, they give, say, $25 or something like that, and felt that they were doing all that they should. When it got to be the United States of India, and the feeling got started into Israel as such, they refused to give it all. didn't care if the UJA was just one certain part of the campaign, that the Federation had to raise money for all of the institutions, or if it wasn't. They felt that whatever they they gave, they did not want to have one pen.
So, it was very, very strong. They refused to get to the other agencies. I know sometimes the workers would talk the way they were blue in the face to a couple of people who were very set in their ways. but you just couldn't make them understand that they could give to, for instance, the community center, or to the, to the family service. They could earmark their contributions and say that they did not want it to go outside Dallas, or they could earmark it for the TB hospitals or for the Leo M. Levi hospital or for the American Jewish Committee or anything at all. They just did not care of it.
Now, then they did not give to Federation? No. For several years some of the people did not give them. What happened? How did they get them back to support Federation? Or did they? Yes, eventually they did. Well, I don't know what the story is with Seymour Hickens right now. He was someone who was with the Thompson branch and whether... I've been wanting to find out what their giving is these days, but I'm sure that they give something. Especially, you know, uh, Compton's mother was out of Golden, April. After Eddie died, she was by herself, she went out to care the living, she had gone there several So that it made a difference in his opinion so far as getting this concern to the Federation because he knew that they took care of the home as well.
One thing when somebody is so blind and so stubborn they make up their mind they don't want to give, I guess it could have been anything to have an excuse not to give, even though they had plenty of money. When the DP started coming in, did that change their thinking in any way when they found out what had happened in the concentration camps? When they were thinking in terms of UNRWA? I'm talking about... Here lately? No, I'm talking about in the 40s. When the first influx came, people were a little sympathetic. I know when we were still over on Pocahontas, the refugees would come over to the Federation for whatever service we could provide for them, even to this day.
You know Mr. Prangler? Yes. He never sees me without saying, you helped me when I first came here to this city, and he always brings up the fact that he appreciated everything that I did In fact so many of the families remember all the service they got and how helpful the Federation was to them And of course the same thing happened on this later surge of refugees that came through, although I hadn't been involved with that. Now are you talking about the Russian refugees or are we saying the later, which later? Any refugees. Yeah, any is right. But I haven't been involved with the Russians at all.
Of course, I try to be of service to them, but they have enough people over at Jewish Family Service now to take care of their needs and all. The only way I get involved is sometimes if I see some of them and they need some translation with my limited Yiddish, trying to make myself understood or have them understand different things, but other ones I haven't been involved with them. But you were backing up to the refugees from the Hitler area Right right right And in those instances of course anything before before 60 well no it would have even before that. I was involved in some of it, not the same way that we were on the initial batch of refugees that came in, because the ones that came in later seemed to have the wherewithal, or they were coming to members of their own families, people who had had signed responsibilities slips for them or something like that.
So they didn't need as much help as others did before them. Now did this group of people that were so against Israel, did they also take that position with the newcomers and after just post-war period? I'm sure they did. I don't recall there being any loosening of funds or there