Minnie Marcus
Minnie Marcus came from a family with deep and varied roots. Her grandfather, whose surname was Mittenthal, arrived in Texas by wagon train, was held up by robbers near Shreveport, and settled in Dallas where he established a wholesale merchandise business across from Sanger Brothers. He was known as an honest and generous man who helped found Temple Emanu-El, though he was himself Orthodox and later left to join the congregation Shearith Israel. Minnie's family reflected a wide mix of origins: her grandmother was of Portuguese extraction, her grandfather from Latvia, her father from Phoenixburg, and her mother born in Russia. She spoke proudly of embracing all these backgrounds equally.
Minnie returned to Dallas around age eight, roughly 1890, after her family had lived in small towns and out in the Panhandle. As a child she attended Cumberland Hill School and later Forest, and went to Sunday school at Temple Emanu-El. Her grandparents lived in an elegant, entirely Gentile neighborhood near Maston Street between McKinney and Ross Avenues, while the Jewish community centered in the area known as the Cedars in South Dallas. She recalled the social divisions of the day, including prejudice between German and Russian Jews and a firm demarcation between Temple Emanu-El families and those of Shearith Israel.
Minnie married Herbert Marcus Sr. of Neiman Marcus, who served as president of Temple Emanu-El and was, by her account, deeply involved in building the city. They lived on South Boulevard and later on Oakwood Lane near Lakewood, where on about ten acres she became an avid gardener, remaining there some thirty-five years until her husband died. She recalled the arrival of Rabbi Lefkowitz around 1937, in which Herbert was instrumental, and credited the Lefkowitz family with reinvigorating the temple's traditions and its sisterhood. Frank and outspoken, Minnie reflected on Zionism, intermarriage, changing observance, and the gradual merging of the two Jewish communities over her long lifetime.
Full Transcript
When people ask me how long have my grandparents lived here, well, their parents, my grandfather's parents, not my parents, I mean not my father's parents, but my grandfather's parents came to Texas and didn't like it. And they went to Palestine. and the family my grandfather stayed here you know and established the business and they raised a family of I think they had six boys and two girls and of course they they had a wholesale merchandise establishment right opposite Sanger Brothers only they weren't as big or as rich as the Sangers were but my grandfather was a very wonderful man had a great reputation because he was honest paid his debts and was very interested he helped to found Temple Emanuel but he was Orthodox and this was the reformed temple you know yes but it was the best religion he could follow and he and mr.
Philip Sangham Mr. Emanuel Kahn, E.M. Kahn, and Mr. Tillman, all the top citizens founded Temple Emanuel, and they had the first public school in Dallas, and the Christians came to this school too. And an amusing thing, there was a teacher called, who was Mrs. Barry, and her father was a mayor of Dallas at that time and one of my younger uncles went to that school her name was Katie and and my mother said well Nathan how did you like school and he said fine. Mama says what's your teacher's name Miss Katie helped me. That was all he knew Miss Katie helping us So then when a group came to form the temple the Sheriff Israel Mr Goldstein the only one that I knew about I don know who else but my grandfather left the Temple of Emmanuel and went to the Sherry and was always a big maher there What was his name?
Mittenthal. Let me see. His name was Ephraim. I think it was just E. Mittenthal. And my children have always kidded me about his name, Eith, you know, and I think it's a very dignified name, but you know how children are. But anyway, I had one of the sons who was very brilliant. He reminds me, Stanley reminds me of this uncle who had extraordinary ability and foresight and everything. And my grandfather was such a good man that he was not a too good businessman. He gave away too much, you know. He'd help every poor... some other came through, and the result was the business was a little weak, and this uncle took it over.
And he was able to bring it back and died at a very early age, at the age of 32, from consumption. consumption and left a very nice estate to the brothers and sisters. So that was the end of that story. Now I don't know what else you're interested in knowing about. We belong to the Reformed Temple. We lived in a small town off for a long time. Also lived out in the west up in Panhandle. But when we came here we joined the temple. Now when did you come back to Dallas? To Dallas? Let me see. I was about eight years old. I figured that out.
I'm 88. That's 80 years ago. That's 1890. And I went to the Temple of Manuel Sunday School. Of course we were from a small town. My uncle was in the millinery, Ike Barron was in the millinery business there, and we get our hats from him And I remember they were wearing legger big legger hats and there was a family here who had a reputation for being just about as catty and nasty as they could be And I remember this, one of these girls flipped the lens and said, hmm, from the country. You know, how nice they're kids. I've never been able to forget that. I was only about 12 years old when that happened.
but they she got her benefits her dues and I went to the you know the school that was just been restored over there on Akron Street Cumberland Hill Cumberland Hill that was first school I attended after we came back here and I was very interested in seeing it and I was invited to the reception and it was very interesting I graduated with the man who his wife and I graduated together from high school and her sister had graduated with my uncle from high school they were older you know so I had a very nice reunion with those people and there was a lot of prejudice in the early days.
The German Jews you know never very kind to the Russian Jews and my grandmother was of Portuguese extraction. My grandfather was in Latvia I believe and my father was from Penixberg and my mother was born in Russia. So someone died here about four or five years ago and he was this boy was related to my mother's family my grandmother's family and I have a friend who's still very conscious you know between the Russians and the Germans and she said to me, Minnie I understand this This fellow that just died came from a very elegant family. And I said, oh, yeah? Well, I happen to be related to him.
I said, my grandmother was the first cousin of his. She said why didn you tell me I said what difference does it make I me And that the way I feel about it I said I love my grandfather who came from Latvia just as much as I did my grandmother who was Portuguese She wasn't one bit better. So I put her in her place. And really, otherwise, I just don't know very much of interest to tell you. Where did you live when you came back to them. Where did we? We lived in a neighborhood, I don't believe it's St. Paul now. It was Maston Street then, and it was between McKinney Avenue and Ross Avenue, but it was closer to McKinney Avenue.
It was a very elegant Gentile neighborhood completely. There were no Jews in that neighborhood. My grandparents didn't know anything about who's who or what was And they had a city block on the corner of Trinidad and Maston. And it was like in the country, you know, and these people, the Crawfords and the Kirbys and the Schneiders, the Carrie, Dr. Carrie's, she was a Schneider. They were up on Ross Avenue and they, oh, all the bigwigs in Dallas lived on that street between Ross and McKinney. The Bolanzas lived on the corner of McKinney and Madison. And they all, and the Burgers, they were all top-notch society people here.
Of course, my grandmother didn't go in society. She had a big family, and being Jewish, she wouldn't have gone in society. But they were friends. They were close, sweet friends. And I have a very young uncle. He was younger than I. And the people across the street, the Kirby's, who were, he was the lawyer, the father of these two girls. They just adopted him. So a good many years afterwards, a Jewish family moved out there in that neighborhood. It wasn't a Gentile that even called on them or recognized. And they couldn't understand it. They asked Grandma, how does this happen? You're such good friends of these people.
So I said, I don't know. My grandmother was really a very good friend. Very elegant. My mother was very elegant. My father was too, but my mother was Russian and still elegant. My father was German, but of course, Phoenixburg was sometimes German, belonged to Germany and sometimes to Russia. I think that was a kind of a seesaw thing. However, he claimed that he was German, and he was a little bit, I don't know how he ever married Mama. She was Russian, he knew it. But you know, I don't go for things like that, not in any way, shape, or form. I think people are what they are, either nice or not nice.
And I don't think where you were born makes that much difference. If you improve yourself, and people do. Well now, were the Jewish people near this neighborhood? Was this also part of old North Dallas? Oh, the Jewish people lived over in South Dallas. Well, at that time... At that time, nobody, no, no Jewish people lived on this side, on that side of town, out there on Madison Street. Completely Gentile. Well, South Dallas was a long ways from that. I would go and spend the night at my grandmother's, and as all children. as all children do towards evening they get homesick and I decided I'd go home.
I walked up, I don't know whether you're familiar with St. Paul there, I walked up as far as Ross Avenue from my grandmother's house. I didn't tell my grandmother I was leaving, I was going home, back home. I got up there and you know when you get up the top of the hill, Ross Avenue, The Schneiders had a magnificent home on the corner. They had also a city block and a beautiful red mansion. And the Trezorans who were big insurance people had a home across the street Well that where it ended Then there were trees You couldn see anything Now, you know, there are buildings and buildings and buildings.
And I got frightened when I saw those trees, and I just walked back to my grandmother's. But the Jews lived in what they called the cedars. There must have been a lot of cedar trees there. And all of the Temple Emanuel Jews lived in a group, and they had nothing to do with the sheriff Israel. Now that has changed very much. There is no demarcation there. And as a matter of fact, it amuses me. so many of the Sharif Israel men have married the Temple Emanuel girls and they're glad to get them. They're so smart that, and they're all wonderful men you know, and the girls were darn lucky to get them because they've made wonderful husbands and they're lovely people and that's my recollections of early Dallas.
Where was Temple at that time? Well the Temple at first, as a child, it was down on Commerce Street, you know where the Adolphus Hotel is? Yes. Of course. Well right across the street was Temple Emanuel, the one that my grandfather helped to found, and that was up a high hill. You had to walk up a a jillion steps to get there. But later they moved the temple to St. Louis Street and Irving, and that was where I went to Sunday School. And then they moved to Harwood and South Oribar, and then of course the present temple. Where did you live after you lived? Well, we lived on Maston Street.
My father and mother lived in a little bit closer to town on Maston Street, and then we moved over to Canton Street, you know where the auditorium and all On that street We lived on that street A good many of the Jewish people of the Templar Emanuel crowd lived there There was such a marked there was such a demarcation that you always could know where you lived. That said whether you belong to Sherith Israel, you belong to Temple Emanuel. And we lived there a long time and then my father was in, he bought, he built homes And so we moved up on the Akron Street.
But he bought a home that was already built and then he built a home, several homes. He built, oh yes, after he built a home, you know, there was a creek. I don't know whether you are familiar with that part of Akron Street. there was a creek and Papa bought the house that we lived in which was an old two-story beautifully built house and there was an extra lot and he built a house for my grandmother to live in, grandmother and grandfather to live in right next to the creek and there wasn't such a passion at that time it wasn't such a desirable life but was close to us and our family was always very close you know when Mama wanted to.
They were getting old and then Papa built two houses out on South Boulevard, one to live in for them to live in and one he rented. So that then of course I married and we built a house out on South Boulevard and then we built out on Oakwood Lane. I don't know if you know, it's, that's off of Lakewood, Lakewood Boulevard to the north, and it was beautiful. We had about 10 acres out there, and that's when I became a big gardener. And then, of course, Mr. Marker, we lived there 35 years, And Mr. Marcus died and then I came here. Well now, during all these periods of time, you said that the Sheriff Israel Jewish population lived in a different area than the temple.
Uh-huh. Well, did they live close or completely opposite or where- What did they? The people that went to Sheriff Israel I don know where they lived I really didn know because I went to Temple Emanuel and I went with the Temple Emanuel group you see and they lived scattered around It was funny, oh, just about ten years ago, not that long, six years ago, the editor for the Times-Herald phoned me and said, Ms. Marcus were getting opinions from the important people in town, how they feel about Christmas tree. And I'd like to know your opinion. I said, well, I'll tell you. I'm always glad when it's over.
We did have a Christmas tree for the children because my husband had been brought up with a Christmas tree. And he wanted children. He was the boss, and we had it. I said, I'm always glad when it's over. It's such a mess in the house, and I'm always glad when it's over. I'll tell you what I enjoyed. I enjoyed our pouring celebration when I went to the temple with my grandfather with a candle on a stick, you know, and marched around, not realizing that that candle could have fallen off and, you know, been dangerous. I didn't tell her that, but I said, I enjoyed that very much.
And so, you know Ben Lewis? Yes. Ben said, Minnie, I certainly was proud of you for what you said to Miss Roberts, Mack Roberts. I said, why? Well, nobody else would have done that. I said, I'm not afraid of anybody else. Just said what I thought. Did the temple, some of the ways, or some of the traditions, was it more traditional then than it is now? Oh, it was more traditional. It was really, it was impossible for young people, for the young generation to enjoy going to, I think. I didn't go, I went to the other temple. And I didn't like the temple too well.
I didn't think I had learned anything. when we went to Israel, I found out that I knew a lot more than I thought I did about the wars that the Jews were always having. Not having, but forced on them. And so I was real proud of my Sunday school education. But there were a few outstanding families among the Shorth Israel people that were always accepted warmly and that one of them was the parliament, you know, Miss Berend and Sarah and that group. They were always very, there were some that were more refined than others, I must admit, admit, but it just happened so. I don't think it was because they were Orthodox.
And Ms. Neiman was extremely fond of Sarah. I remember when she got her truce, she said Ms. Behrens and Sarah both are such lovely people. Have you lived in Dallas long? Yes, I'm a native. You're a native? Yes. Well, then you know how it was, don't you? Pretty much. I've seen records where Temple at one time wore yarmulkes. Yeah, at the Temple. At the Temple. Not since I can remember. When they opened, I saw records. Well, maybe so. I was too young then to notice. Yes. And I can't ever remember a young woman in the temple. There was a... I can't see any objection to it anyway.
You know, some people are so biased. Well, the Catholics, they think that's wonderful. They have so much... Tradition, ritual. So many ceremonies. Well, they wore... They wore... You don't call them elmuses, but... But the younger generation got so, they just made so much fun of all the ceremonies of the temple that it got to be a kind of a habit. Now is my account that I've given you, isn't that factual? Isn't that just about the way it was? I would feel remiss in not mentioning that there was a prejudice, undoubtedly. And I could notice it very... Do you have any idea how many Jewish people were here around the turn of the century No I wouldn I really would not know because as I said I didn well I just don remember Sure.
I probably wasn't interested. It's a long time ago. Where did you go to school? I went to Forrest. Forrest? Well, it's first time you graduated. We probably had some of the same teachers. What's that? We probably had some of the same teachers. Probably did. Did the, well, the observance as far as holidays are concerned, the Temple, and as far as the service, was it always in English? Well, no, don't you know the Sherry Thieves are always celebrated two days. They got a double dose. Right. And the Temple only celebrated life one day. Even Yom Kippur, I think, the Orthodox, sure, observed two days in a way.
I didn't know that was the day. No, it was all, but all day. All day. Oh, well, the Temple Emanuel was always on one day, too. I mean, all day. From early morning, so it's And my parents were very strict about that. They'd fasted. I understand Neiman's was closed on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur then. Neiman Marcus, the store, was closed on the holidays. Maybe it was. I can't remember. I can't imagine it being closed. Because they weren't very religious, actually. However, Mr. Marcus was president of the temple. When he wanted to marry me, I said, well, Herbert, I couldn't marry you. I'm religious. I was quite religious.
And you're not, no, and you don't believe in anything. He said, I believe in you. I said, I'm not God. Now, you said Mr. Mittenthal, who was your grandfather, was one of the founders of Sheriff Israel. Is that correct? He was also, he was founder of Temple Emanuel and then went to Sherith Israel. I mean, when they came, he founded with Mr. Goldstein and I don't know who else. You might get that from somebody else. Well then did he start attending Sherith Israel after Sherith Israel was founded Did he what Attend Sherith Israel after Sheriff Israel was founded Oh yes he left the temple completely And I can remember him you know with the Talos and saying his prayers and blessing out Isaac Meyer Wise for making, for dividing, you know.
What did he have? Don't Isaac Meyer wise if he had just kept out of our business, you know. He was very religious, but he was an awfully fine man. Brand person. He lived with my mother for a long time, and she said he was the easiest person to please that she had ever seen, ever lived with. My father was temperamental. Charles' importance, you know. That was the way it was. What about Jewish organizations in those days? Did they? Well, my grandmother and, you know, Henry Miller. My grandmother and Sophie Miller were very close friends, and they would, my grandmother had a carriage and driver, and they would go collecting for the Benevolent Association.
And when people refused to pay, it was three and a half a month or a quarter or a quarter. I know three and a half stays in my mind. Mama and her grandma would just get furious and Sophie Miller, who had quite a temper herself but she was very much more indulgent in her opinion because she says Lea her name was Lea remember I'm Iska hot and a shome and if they don't want wrong they don't want they don't don't get mad about it but mama thought everybody else wrong and so they were collecting for her grandma I mean I don't know what Mama thought she was.
Mama was not too active in organization work. She had what she thought was a big family. She had two children children one boy and two girls Were there other organizations other than the Benevolent Society then Well if there were I didn know about them What about the social life? Well, the Temple and Manuel didn't have a-they had a women's organization, but it wasn't good until Sadie Lefkowitz got here, and when Dr. Lefkowitz arrived. She got his... she reorganized the whole thing. She was a... did you know her at all? No, I'm sorry, I didn't. She's a very bright... she was a very bright woman. But Blanche...
you know Blanche, she said she married Lewis, you know, and she said the Lewis... the Lefkowitz's and the Mittenthal's were just the opposite. If the Mittenthalters are taught, if you had a quarter, you saved ten or fifteen cents and spent the other part. The Lefkowitz's, if they had a quarter, they spent it all and left the rest to God. I thought that was cute. Oh, boy. Do you happen to remember when Rabbi Lefkowitz came to Dallas? I don't know. My husband was instrumental in it. He went over to Dayton, he and Arthur Cramer, to get him. Let me see. It was about 1937, I think, that he came.
They went over. And Sadie told me, and his left, he said, I want to tell you, your husband thinks plenty of you. He said to Sadie, you should see my money. He was a really wonderful man and sweetest husband in the world. I don't know if everyone thinks that husband, I guess they do. It was a piece of perfection, but he was, really. He had so many fine qualities. such a city builder and whatever happened here he had so much to do. I went to dinner last night at Hockaday School. It was for all the people that had, you know, had been back to school and Dr.
Brian Williams was Speaker and he said that if it hadn't been for Mr. Herbert Marcus Sr. and mention the other person I don't remember who it was. Wrote me a note and said he had been on the committee when Mr. Marcus and he told me that's amazing. And I say, how can you ask, wrote me, Lester Lodge, said he knew Mr. Marcus probably better than Stanley and Lester were the same age. And they would go out together together. And he said, I knew Mr. Marcus probably better than any young people in Dallas. And I was so proud to have Stanley Stanley. What about tradition as far as Temple was concerned?
Was there any tradition? I understand that there was less tradition in Temple Emanuel than after Rabbi Lefkowitz came. Then there was more tradition. Well, I think there was much tradition. Dr. Greenberg was an English doctor. He was very elegant. I think there was as much tradition, probably not as Jewish, you know, not as bordering on the conservative until Dr. Lefkowitz came and he introduced a good many semi-conservative customs. It was, the temple was mostly on Christian patterns, you know, I mean I don't know, I can't quite describe it, but they were not they didn't well no we didn't have the armutters either in my time now they may have had it before that way before but it was a good many years before and we lived in small towns that may have been during that time that they had we had a doctor greenberg and dr cobalt alexander cobalt who was anything but traditional oh he was traditional in a very formal way but not Jewish you know He was a brilliant young man a very young man very good looking and the women were crazy about him But then when Doc Lefkowitz came she was so wonderful and he was so wonderful They really were wonderful family, and good for the Jewish community, because they introduced a lot of things that we had never known.
In the way of holidays? Or in the way of observance? Of the observances of them. And the sisterhood became so important. That's one way. The sisterhood was the center of activities. And she made it, oh, of course she had a lot of steps. And she was the leader of the gang, no mistake about that. Did they have activities for the youth? Were there any youth organizations? Yes, they had youth organizations, and they, and, but mostly for the seniors, for the older people. There was a change. It was organized, you see, cohesive, and that came gradually, of the youth. Of course, David, you know, the youngest son, was about as naughty a little boy as ever was.
And Arthur Baron took Helen out, and he says many a time he spanked David. Well, now David, you know, is very highly thought of in three parts. Left coaches were a wonderful force in the city. Now what about the sheriff Israel? Did they never, or did they just, I don't know, you said that they weren't together in any way. Were there any organizations that they both belonged to that were also Jewish organizations? No, not that I know of. They just didn't belong to the same, well you'd think they were friendly enemies. You know you had friends in both crowds some people did but they didn belong to the same organizations at all What about the religious school?
It was only one day a week? The what? Religious school, Sunday school. It was only the one day a week? They didn't have any... On Sunday? On Sunday, yes. I don't think they have Hebrew as much until Dr. Lefkowitz came. And my husband was opposed to Hebrew. He said, we live in America. We don't need Hebrew. Of course, he was wrong about that. Because you see how important Hebrew has come. And now he has to, you know, Wendy, Stanley's daughter lives in, well, they live in Jerusalem, but I think they're going to move to Tel Aviv. and Hebrew has taken a greater place in the world than it ever has and the biased Jews that have gone over to Israel and come back converted you know they're so enthusiastic you just can't imagine.
Of course I've always had that small bit of religion that I inherited from my grandfather and my grandmother so I could see both sides of the picture. And I was stood up for, whenever there was any discussion, I wouldn't stand for it. There's no difference. I'm me, you are you, and that's what we're happy about. Did, were there any feelings about interdating, about non-Jewish dating, and being with non-Jews? And there was a barrier, to be just very honest, there was an unspoken barrier. If you were going with a sheriff Israel young man, it was noticed or the other way, you know, it was spoken of and commented he belongs to sheriff Israel as if that was something awful And they just amused me It didn amuse me It made me mad I didn like it Suppose they dated somebody who wasn Jewish at all How did they feel about it Well, there was a lot of conversation about that.
There was much conversation about that. Very few of them, or did any of them marry non-Jews at that time? Though it wasn't as common as it is today. Even Stanley's been married 35 years, even then it wasn't as common. But it was really and truly, that's the finest woman I know. She's just a grand person. And we all still think, Mary, a Jew, or... So... Did the people... Vestige of prejudice, I guess, with some people yet. Don't you think so? I think so. Just a vestige of it. They try to overcome it. It's so inconsequential. I don't think there's a finer lady anywhere than Sarah Feldman.
She's elegant and refined and has great dignity. And a good many other people that I'm... I don't know a great many. It's only the last few years that they've sort of merged. Don't you think? Yes, yes. This is quite a change from when I was young. Quite a change. I think so. And I really feel that the Sherath Israel group of young people are much more alert and do more things than our group. I know Ben and I often speak of it. He says, you don't see the Temple Emanuel people going in for this or that. It's always a share of this required. And Ben and I are very congenial on the subject.
And I don't know, I can always tell the difference. Somehow I just have a fifth sense of whether, which group they're from. But I don't let anyone I don't have to comment about it, you know, one way or the other because I just have that feeling. Do you see any more activity in Temple than there was maybe 15 years ago or 20 years ago as far as Jewish activity is concerned? Well, I'll tell you the honest truth. I don't go to very many of our meetings. I find myself very busy with civic affairs and a big family and getting older. I just can't spread myself.
No, I think there's more activity though, actually. I think the youngness, the... Now, wait a minute. I believe the Council of the Jewish Women is the one organization that they've melded. you know work together but outside of that I can't see any close union except where people have been to marriage and then it amuses me they always oh I don't know just with their noses in the air I don't like it I guess the natural reaction because my grandfather and my mother were Russian. And I'd advise anybody to be more elegant or more... My mother was a very bright woman. And of course I don't talk about it.
Just notice it, you know. But I don't want any of that to go into it. This is just between us. What about the people that have married outside of Judaism, who are members of Temple? Did they stay in Temple, or did they leave? Most of them. The men were not very religious to begin with. There is a tendency in the reform, you know, my own boy's not religious to death. And I certainly sent them to Sunday school and tried to you know make them more religious And they didn do any good And you know after they once grown you can direct them Mine's a business.
And, but, now let's see, what did you ask me? After, if the boys from Temple or the girls from Temple carried out. Oh, well, I'll tell you about this. some kind of Mrs. Vera Schloppe, Vera Schultz, did you know the Schultzes? That was Mr. Marcus's sister's son who married this gentile girl, worked in a bank and she's another very fine person. She became a jurist. I think she studied with Dr. Lethbridge and became a jurist and joined the temple and she after he died she married a Christian but she still kept her membership in Temple Emanuel and felt like she had just married into the most wonderful family in the world they have been grand to her.
Ms. Neiman left her her husband's share of her estate and you know just been so wonderful. I just talked to her this morning. She lives in Mineola now. But I think most men are not religious, as religious as they share this for probably. That's my observation. Do most of them stay in town full even though they aren't religious or do they go or do it just depend on those women? They just don't go to town full. But they don't join other, other, or do they? Oh no, no they don't. Well some of them become Christian scientists, some women too, you know. They come, they join Christian science cult.
As far as tradition, as far as observing, did they observe all the holidays when the Rabbi Greenberg was there as far as Hanukkah? They still take holidays you know but they don go much on Friday night Now that doesn mean that all of them but I mean by and large when they have a death in the family yeah Now, I don't like to go to tap along the big holidays because it's so crowded that I don't feel a bit religious or don't have any feeling about it. You have to fight for a seat, and I just don't fight for a seat anywhere. If the civic music, you couldn't give it to me.
I want my seat and I want to know that I'm going to sit there. I'm too old to battle for a seat and to sit way back in the auditorium, there's no feeling about it. I like the sanctuary. So I do go on Friday nights often. What about observance of Passover and Shvult and Sukkot? Do they always observe? Yeah, a great many do and they have this thing. We used to have it when Miss Marcus was living in. We'd have it. But it was more fun when I was a child and my grandfather had it. It was more, more religious, had more religion. And it was important.
I think the reformed Jews are very nonchalant about it. They do it as sort of a gesture. But I don't think most of them, Now you find the exceptions. But by and large, I don't think the Templar manual group are really imbued with great religion. They liked after Rabbi Klein. And he is, I'm having him over for dinner next week, him and his wife. I want him to tell me what this dance was about, this dancing in the temple. They tell me it's a relic of ancient Jewish history. And I just want to know more about it. I told him he'd have to come over and explain it to me.
He's really a very sweet man. Yes, I see. Yes very fun As far as the town now first it was closer to Sanger Brothers you know as far as the stores and shops and things Did that later start moving down the other way? No, Sanger stayed where they were. Oh, you mean business? Yeah, business-wise. Oh, business kept moving up towards, you see, Tights is where they had the first, I think they were in our location. No, they were across the street. That's right. And this building, this property belonged to Mr. Connor, or O'Connor, I don't remember. and we have 100 years at least now. But it gradually moved up there, the lenses, and see the lenses were further down.
They were early settlers there. They were from Sherman. How did they get to Texas? How did your family get to Texas from here? My family. Why Texas? Well, it was a funny thing. At one of the fortnights, I was seated next to a Lord Manford, I think his name was, and he asked, how did your family happen? How did they, where were they from? And I said, well, they were in Peoria, they lived in Peoria. I don't know how they happened to land there. But then my grandfather came here in the proverbial wagon train. He and his friends had two friends I think with him.
Well a brother and another friend and when they got to Shreveport at the bar they were held up by some of their launchers from the town where they came. They knew they had money and goods with them, you know, to go peddling here like the Sanger's and all these men. And I said, but you know, oh, he said, oh, I don't mean that. I mean, where were they from? What countries were they from? And I said, well, I'll tell you. You know, Jews are peculiar. He said, oh, you don't have to tell me I'm a Jew. And he was married. Christian girl. And by the way, she looked a lot like Billy Marcus and was a very fine woman.
So on. So then I told him, I told him the truth, I said, I have all these different backgrounds and I take my choice. Mm-hmm. That's wonderful. Well, let's see. What about the later organizations? When did they start really farming as far as Jewish grouping was concerned, that they felt as a community? Do they feel... Well, I think, I believe that the Temple and the manual crowd were a little bit more civic-minded. The Trump-Israel crowd were wrapped up in their things, the Jewish, you know, and Palestine, Israel. And my husband was a violent anti-Zionist. He didn't think they should try to form a city, but I'm sure had he lived and had gone to Israel and saw what they did, he would have been open-minded and changed his mind.
But he was-oh, Dr. Leftwoods was an anti-Zionist, too, you know, and anti-Hebrew and all that. But I think the Campanile group were more closely allied to the civic activities in the city, and went more with Christians than the-as I say, the Characters group-were more- oriented toward the Palestine idea. I understand that Mr. Kramer was the man responsible for getting the Metropolitan Opera here in Dallas. Were there some of the other Temple members that were... some of the things they did as far as the civic Well he did He got the I don think I think that about the only oh I guess he was interested in a good many things I just didn think about it Though we lived next to each other you know on open land we both had a home next to each other In the early days, when you lived north of Ross, were they all estate type homes?
Were they had large acreage around them? Oh, where we lived and out there? Mm-hmm. Well, the only two places were ours, Kramer's and ours. It was some property of where we lived. Mr. Marcus and his brother had bought-no, I think Mr. Marcus had bought-40 acres, which included the little golf course over there on Abrams Road. And so when we were thinking of building, he just thought he'd just use that property. And he thought that he could make a little group bird, but it didn't go over. People want to come further out this way and further out than this, you know. So we just built our home there and Stanley built his.
Now when you were young, when you lived near Ross Avenue, were those all large homes with large lots in the States? Yes, yes the treasurants and most of them were. There were some city lots on Masters Street but on Ross Avenue. The Bielos, you know, had a home on Ross Avenue for a long time, H. Bielo, and the Trezvins and the Schneiders and the-I can't think of a good many, they all had elegant homes up there. What about the usual or the ordinary people, the people with less wealth? Were they very small lots as far as the homes? Were they small homes? Were they pretty well?
No, we were 100, most of them 75 foot lots. I wrote 139 or 150 But the people on Akron Street that was the heart of the aristocracy of the what they called the aristocracy of the Jews. And they called it the Cedars. And I often remember. E.M. Cairns lived on Akron and St. Louis. No, yeah, on Accord and St. Louis, Katie's or something along there, they have a lovely home. They have a big lot. And the Lenz's have on Irvey and South Boulevard and the Dreyfuss's. They all have pretty good size lots. I think Grandfusses gave their home to the nurses, you know, the nurses organization.
Is that the one with the lions in front of it? What? Is that the one with the lions in front of it on the corner of St. Louis-Martin? I think that's Lindsay's. And it's only... Well, they're just right opposite each other. I don't remember. I don't remember whether which one had the line, but the lenses were not as generous as the Mr. M. Cannon, as I remember it. Now, they were at Temple or at Sheriff Israel at that time? No, Temple. They were all at Temple? All the temples, Drapes and Linses, Liam Cans and all those people. Mm-hmm. Did any of the temple group have feelings with Palestine at the time?
Were any of them for Palestine? No, most of them were against. Most of them were against. In other design there made them a few different parts Do you think that was because of Rabbi Lefkowitz or do you think they would have been in any case No I think they were just about isolationists in a way Was it the same in their politics? You said they were isolationists. Were they generally the same as far as the American political scene was concerned, too? I think they just didn't want any part of it. Do you think they were concerned about being a part of America, you know, Americans first?
Yes, Americans first, last and always. We're Americans and we don't need them. And they were like a separate race as far as most of the people felt. I'm sure they don't feel that right now. They have bitter experiences to learn otherwise. Isn't this thing with this young soldier, this lieutenant, a terrible thing? He was obeying orders, and to fasten the whole thing on him is so unfair. unfair. I don't care what he did, he didn't go out and kill these people wantonly. He was obeying orders if you're in the army and they've killed hundreds of people. I don't know why all of a sudden this got to be so important.
It's hard to know what people think and why they think it's very hard to know. Well, I appreciate you letting me. Well, I don't have that much to say. Well, when you start, you know, reminiscing and talking, can you think of anything else? No, I really can't. You know, they hadn't thought of that before. I know that in the school, I had just as many Gentile friends. You know, it was so easy. We had even a little class. Someone got the crowd together, picked out the best people in the, what they thought.