Morris Zale

Full Transcript

This is Ginger Jacobs. It is February the 4th, 1984, and we'll be talking with Mr. Morris Zale of Zale Corporation. Mr. Zale, how many years in New York and Dallas? Since 1946. And are you the first generation of the first generation that came to the United States? Where were you born? In Russia. And how old, why is it that you left Russia? Why did your parents leave? Well, I was just a kid with a little over six years of age. My parents came with my mother. My father left about three years before I did. Where did he come to? Why did he leave and where did he come to?

At six, I didn't have any choice. I was taken. My mother took me. Now, why did your father leave Russia? Because of the fact that at that time, I think, the war was on between Japan and Russia. And the Jews, if they ever conscripted, you know, they'd keep it for 25 years. So they all tried to get out as fast as they could. As many of them as could have seen across the border. Now where did he come to when he came to the United States? He came to New York as most of the refugees did at that time. They practically all came to New York.

And then he sent for you and your mother, is that it? Yes, between him and my uncle. My mother's brother was Sam Kruger. At that time he was sent for me, I think he was in some little town in New Jersey. He sent, he and my father jointly sent for us. Now, how is it that you came to Texas eventually? came to Texas with my uncle in Fort Perth, and that's where he wanted his sister to live. How does that affect your Jewish education? In Russia you know you couldn get any other education but a Jewish education You couldn go to a school you couldn go to a Russian school you were Jewish You went to Haider, I went to Haider, just like the other.

That's the one thing that I keep pointing out about these blacks. You see, my mother couldn't read her life, but by God, she made me go every day. And with the blacks, if they can't do the right, they don't make their kids go reading right. And that's a big difference when they always say, you know, the Jews did this and the blacks fed, and they should do the same thing, because there's never been any connection, as I said. There's two different animals in college. When you talk about blacks, you have families who are always broken up, the father was sold One mother sold to another, the children sold to somebody else.

So they told me all this stuff about the black and the picked themselves up. It just didn't do that. They don't have the same background. When your father now came to the United States, was your mother still able to send you to school? How was that handled then? here in this country? Before you said that your father came in the nude and your mother followed several years later, were you already in school? When did you start school in Russia? In Russia? I think you were born in Haider. Most of us were. I don't think any of us had any charge in it. How old were you when you started school at Haider?

When they came here? I was six and a half years old. How old were you when you started? Do you have... Started in the Khedr? Yeah. I think I was born in the Khedr. I can't remember being anywhere else. Probably two years old. I don't know how old it was. And when you came here and you got to Fort Worth, well, how long were you in New York before you came here? About two years. And then what was your education like when you came to Fort Worth? Well, I came... I went to school in the United States. As soon as I arrived in New York, I had learned English and everything else.

But certainly I didn't know English and I didn't know how to read or write, except I knew how to read like Midish or Russian. I remember the hell of a movie. Did you continue your Jewish education when you got to Fort Worth Yes What types of education you were Well Hebrew school you know Sunday school As long as I went to school I only went to school until I went to the seventh grade, and that was the end of it. In those days, you know, you had to buy your own books. There just wasn't any money to buy those books. What did your father do when he came to Fort Worth?

He was a painter, a house painter. Had he been a house painter in Russia too? I don't remember. I really couldn't say for sure. I don't think they painted many houses in Russia. I don't remember. When you quit school, what did you do? I went to work, honey, and try to support family or something. My father never was the type of person. I never made very much money. So whatever was made, we turned it into the house. There wasn't any other place. I got three dollars a week. That's where I held a lot of money in those days. What type of work did you do?

Were you able to do? I worked anywhere they'd left me. Food stand, I made buttons, I did everything under the sun. I sold chewing gum, I guess, and everything else. trying to make a few pennies and all the work. And I got sick in Lake McChairly Hospital. My father was sick and the neighbors were complaining about it because in those days, you know, they used to quarantine a whole house. So they called the health department. When the doctor came, I was sitting on the steps of the house. The doctor looked at me and before he even went in to see my father, And these people were right next door.

They were the ones pushing the doctor. So he took my temperature or did some damn something, or he went next door and ordered an ambulance and had me take him to the hospital, the Cherry Hospital. My mother ran after him. In Russia, you know, if you ever went to an ambulance kid, you were buried in the ambulance. But she ran after him because she didn't want to take him, but she had no choice. Anyhow, and then my brother, he had the same thing. So the two of us were there, I think, for five or six weeks. Here about oh 10 15 years ago I think we gave a suite of surgical suite to some hospital there in town that was written up in the paper And this doctor that had taken me there called from Fort Worth I want to know if I was the same one that he took to the hospital in Fort Worth.

And I don't know how the hell I'd get that. And she wrote, so Edna, I took Edna, we went over there in Fort Worth. I can't remember the name of him. He was a very, very fine gentleman. He definitely did a city doctor at the time, so that's all. He passed away shortly after the school. But, uh, the rest of the matter. You get educated, you know, without school, if you have to. I don't know if it's practical, but maybe even if they ever were. Did you ever find out what they diagnosed your illness to do? It was typhoid B. They'd quarantine the house and everything else.

We had a couple of cows in the back and all that dirt and everything else. We were selling all the milk and rivers and all that. Do you remember the year that was in? Well, I think I was 12. about 1930 what was the Jewish observance like at home observance My observance? Yeah. My mother was 1000% kosher. She wouldn't eat my house after she was present. But you're listening to anything else. What about holiday observance? When my mother and father were in the third, probably doesn't work in the opposite of all. Up until when would you say that you were traditionally oriented? I was like...

Traditional? Religious? Well, traditional. You may still be religious today, but not as traditional. No, but I went to work. I mean, I had to work Saturday. They wouldn't hire me if I didn't work Saturday. My papa never worked Saturday. I couldn't have been religious and eaten. That's all there was to it. You can have your choice. Well, what about kosher? Keeping kosher. Well, it was one thousand percent. She buried more goddamn stuff in the backyard than I could make. Every time I'd send her a set of silver, I'd always have to send her another one. She would follow her. She would follow her. She would follow her.

She would follow her. Did you keep strict kosher when you were home until the time you went to work? Me? I've heard that. Personally. You're talking in our house now. personally even when you were a kid though before you left your parents house oh i hadn't been hell up hell else i could eat something downtown i couldn't shoot help with me in the house yeah but you just decided to do that when you started i wasn't going to wait for a kosher meal i'm back there making three bucks a week if i get something to eat i couldn't go home and come back but the job wouldn't be there.

Now do you have any strong feelings about that? I've never been strong. I've never put a great deal of voice in. What about your synagogue affiliation? My kids, the minute they moved to town, I moved around. They always moved to town. Because of the fact that Ed and I always went to services. I came to, when I was in Wichita Falls, I was the president of one congregation, and we had a one congregation of Orthodox. I never knew the difference. I heard that the Orthodox may be a program until I came there for something else. I asked them, I'm sitting there, I didn't know what the hell they're talking about.

They made me president. They wouldn't let me talk. And then, of course, I went to the other city. I did them a big favor. I cleaned up the mortgages for them. I cut them out of debt. That was the worst thing I've ever done. If you ever get a semi-categorized debt, everybody lose interest. This way they have to work with them. I always used to tell these colleagues you know I said well I not going to go He told New token was supposed to complain about all those that a blissful don make a mistake around there They got together one day, they came over at my house, they went to clean up the mortgage, and it was six or seven months of my own mortgage here at the temple.

I laughed at them, and I said, you do. I said, you can experience. I ruined two accommodations. I got him the money to pay off. Now, did you join a congregation, or when did you join a class congregation? I belong to four here in town. Which are they? Once a year I go to his congregation, sit with him and John Kilburn. Now where does Harold Jackman go? To Sheriff Israel. Harold Feldman goes to Sheriff Israel. I'm well represented in Sheriff Israel. What about the other three congregations? I go to the temple. I'm a Levi Olin Jew. When Levi Olin couldn't speak and these other guys speak, I can't stand it.

I like them personally, but they're not trial lawyers. Morris Jackley and I, you know, I was sitting with him one day, and I was complaining about these guys when they get up to talk. It's not interesting to me. It doesn't mean that they're wrong. So I tell them to tell Morris, you know, this guy's not a trial lawyer. He said, in our office, we have to have a trial lawyer. What about the other two congregations that you go to? Are you a member of them? Paying my dues, honey, I probably would be once every two years or something. If I had Harold Shacklin and the other congregation, I'd be the same.

Are they perhaps the Barith Israel? Is that the other congregation? Barith Israel and the other Temple Shalom. Temple Shalom. My kids belonged there, whatever it was. When I was on the board of the temple, we had so many members, you know, and I think a bunch of them just didn't have money to give them the land where they could build another temple. It just opened the crowd. Do you remember what year that was in I have other things going on my arm but I a lot more important When did you well when you after you started working what was your work career like It was just like it.

I sit here every morning. I don't call this work. How did you come and get into the jewelry business? I got into the jewelry business, my uncle was in the jewelry business, when they moved to Fort Worth, it was about 1910. I'm trying to get my cousin, she has some pictures here that I know here that had a library in New York. and she, I think we came to work in 1910, and my mom will have a jewelry store and I used to sweep it up on, and that's how I started to do it. See, this is taken, which don't fall, that's the cousin of mine, that just died there, and his sister.

So I was just talking to her last night, She's got a picture of the damn story that I worked in and I can't find it so far. She hasn't found it. She says she's hung up in the attic. And they got it in the library in New York. So I sent my brother there to see if he could see it. He said, we saw it, but they wouldn't have any way to take a picture of it. Someday I'll get it. That's good. After you swept floors for your cousin, your uncle in the store, what did you do after that? At what age? I guess I was 1910.

I was nine years of age. There's a question, but you know what I can get some of my clothes. I didn't have much choice. Well, I understand that. But when did you start, did you start selling jewelry afterwards? No, no, no. Listen, honey, I wouldn't let anybody wait on the cusp for myself when I had my own store, because I was scared that they wouldn't sell them, they didn't sound the right thing. I'd never let them near them. My wife would sell a baby spoon when she come to the store that all How did you graduate or go from selling sweeping floors in your uncle store When did I do that How did you move along in occupation from sweeping floors as a child to getting into the jewelry business and becoming a shop owner?

Well, my uncle moved out of Fort Worth. I was there. There was no more store there. I had to take any kind of job that was available. And then in 1919, Uncle came to, it was during the boom in Worth the Net. And he came to Fort Worth and he talked about moving to Rickshaw Falls. And he had brought a brother-in-law place from Tulsa to Rickshaw Falls. and he wanted me to go in there and work with him. So I started working with him. In July, I think it was July 4th, 1920. It was my first day. We had a store to clean up and try to learn about the stock and all the things.

It was a movie. So I went to the store. The store was closed. And my mother, boy, I'd let him in. I'd say whatever I could stop. I got a fucking beer. And his brother-in-law bought a store in Berkman, and at that time I had a cousin. He's died since. and I asked him to put him in charge because there was some problems there, some family problems there. But I did get my uncle to put him in charge, and then my uncle and this fellow fell out again. So my uncle drove up in front of the store and left the engine on it for his car, and they said, and he told me to put him in there.

He has moved a muscle. He said, now you go up there. This is where the net was before we had paid for it. He said, you go up there and take that shoulder and finish it up. He's a motor runner. So I went out to the house. I was living in my son's house. I went out there and I got in that car and I left. I got stuck in mud and all that things. And finally, I'm going to straighten that out. I lived there. I lived in a little hotel for a little while. Then I lived in the back of the store. I ran that store in Burk and Ed.

Then Burk and Ed sort of widened down. A friend of ours had a refinery in Graham, Texas. lived across the street from my uncle. He thought Graham was going to be a big boom. So my uncle, I told him I didn't want to stay at Berkeley, I thought I was wasting my time there. So he helped me put in a store down there. First, the sale store, we put it down in a drug store. And then I went to Fort Worth, to Dallas, and I got the Sanger brothers who were the, The distributors are big trollers in those days. And I bought the Victor Talk machine managers there, all on credit.

I ran that for about, the whole thing, for almost two years. Then my uncle bought his competitor, which was a much better location, and he had a halted the proof of store. He moved out of his store and had a set of fixtures and had a new lease on the store. So he asked him again to move back to his store and take over that store. The way he said that, he kept two-thirds, and I had one-third, and that was the beginning of Dale Corporation. We opened up on March 29th, 1924. I'm having them. They took out the records here. But the books that I kept, and I kept telling this story for about several months.

I used to come down earlier in the morning, 6 o'clock in the morning, to write it, to make all my records myself. I was working on the show face in the store. The store was a corner. And if it was bad, so-called bad location, because if it was good, they wouldn't have given it. So a friend of mine that was a bookkeeper, he walked by his neighbor's quits. And he said Morris you know I see you here every damn morning working on those books He said for a month I keep the books for you so you can go to work I didn have for finding out hard And you can see the improvement of the writing.

You know, my writing was so scribbled. His was much better. He kept the work in the beginning of the corporation. I went trying to find the records. They've got them all here. I told him the other day I want that book, one that I had written in the book, and 60 years have passed, and a lot of these things, you know, that I built up in my mind, and I don't know whether some of them were true or not, but I may have been lied to people, I don't know if they want to remember all of this stuff. But I had a great time out of all, and I had no complaints.

I enjoyed everything. You're doing it in the band. When did your uncle first send you to Wichita Falls? He said you were working in Wichita Falls when he sent you back, sent you to Baird for that. I was doing what? You were working in Wichita Falls when he sent you? Yes, I was working in this pawn shop that he had there in Wichita Falls. When did you first go to Wichita Falls to work in that pawn shop? I went there, well I went there the first time when Aaron was born. I went there and I lived even for the summer. I worked there in the pawn shop for about three months.

And of course I had to go back. How old were you? How old were you when you went to work in the pawn shop? about 13, somewhere along 14 maybe at the most. I don't have a direct of it, but I don't remember anything. And my kid, my cousin, that just died last week, he was born, let's see, he was born at, he was 71, so he was born in 13, So I went there in 1914, and I lived there for a few months, and then I went back in 1920, so from the rest of the time I lived in Fort Worth until I went up there So you went to work for that When you went to Burtburn wasn that Well I stayed in Wichita Falls maybe three or four months and moved to Burt Burnett So when you went to Burt Burnett and you started in that store, you were like 13 or 14?

I was 12. How old were you then? Oh, no, not 1920. I was 19. But you said you stayed there for three or four months. In Wichita Falls, I got there I was 19 years of age. It was in 1920 when I got there. Okay, I'm sorry. In 1920 to 1921, I don't think I even stayed until 21. I think it was just a few months after I was at this school. It always gave me the impossible job, just like my cousin Jake was, had some problems. Where did you start your negotiations with Sangers for Petrola? What? You talked about Sangers, going to Sangers and getting the...

Sangers, I want my mom credit. I got a little credit from them, from Storm and Cummings, from everybody I could. That's when I, that was in 1900, that was 1922. In 1920. And then when you went back with the store, what happened after, you started Zales, and then what happened after you started with the first- That was the Zales store there, and then I closed it in 1924 to take over this other store that my uncle left. Empty store there. In Fort Worth? No, we talked about Wichita Falls. Wichita Falls, I'm sorry. They never went back to Fort Worth. My uncle never went back. Okay.

How long were you in Wichita Falls? How long did you stay in Wichita Falls then? 1920 to 1946. And then where did you go? You came to Dallas in 1946? Yeah, in 1946 I moved. Okay, how is it you decided to come to Dallas? I decided to come to Dallas. I'll tell you why. We had stores here in Dallas, 1946. We must have had 15 stores, maybe more. And I was in the name between Wichita Falls and New York. For Wichita Falls to get to New York, I had to go to Denison to change trains. And the railroad was a hell of a trip you know to get to New York And I had to go every few weeks you know things would happen or something like that So, and that was before the airlines, to a great extent, there were some airlines, but not too many.

It always took two days. And Dallas, it could be, traveling was a hell of a lot easier. I could get on a train here and I'd be in New York. Now of course when the airlines started I never used the train anymore. So I've always been here since 46. When I used to come here every few weeks, you know, I was always on the road. I've been on the road all my life. And we had these other stores, I put in each one of them myself. Now how did you do that? What was the process that you went through when you came back and you had this one store and you had one third interest in that store?

Now what happened? I just wasn't satisfied with it. How did you do that? How did I do it? I did it on credit. The first place I had at the Wichita Falls store in pretty good shape. I owed very little money in penny. Of course I did everything myself, but just hospital. My brother and I had this store. And a friend of ours came down from Tulsa, and he was telling me about this corner. this corner that was available in Tulsa. And I went up there and I made a deal. I went to Shawnee, Oklahoma. The United Cigar Store had that corner and they wanted to lease it.

They wanted to lease me the inside store. They took the corner and left me to the inside store. and I didn't have any money for that, so I gave them a check for $500 as if possible. I had an option on the lease, providing I could do it. I'd lose my $500 if I couldn't do it. So then from Tulsa, I came back to Wichita Hall, and I made an outline of who I needed credit from. So I went to all these people personally. I was fortunate enough that a banker at uni seemed to like me. Somebody that didn't like me and turned me down.

I always told her I was a privilege. I never got mad at him. I'm a male at the ceremony. Why should I get mad at him? I've been turned down by many of them. You know, but this guy liked me. He didn't. I went to him and I told him what I wanted to do. He moved to Tulsa at that time. I told him I would need $5,000 to put it in the store. When I was going to pay him back, I told him I'd pay him so much a month. So he said, if I made the deal, he'd loan me $5,000 and his work was good.

So then I went to Providence. I went to Massachusetts International Silver Company. I visited the watch companies. What I did in Tulsa, I looked to see what wines were represented there. And I went to people that weren't represented. The others wouldn't need me because I didn't have a quarter. So they wouldn't get me. So at any rate, I told them all the truth about it. I told them I could have a dime that I was borrowing this money. And that I wouldn't continue to pay my bills in Wichita for all. You understand? But I needed... I had an agency on the street on Sunday, and that wasn't very much time.

But my brother was going to go and I went to the altar, and the room I saw, and uh, the day from the bookstore was the evidence, but the afterthoughts weren't ready, but we worked for the daytime, a week, maybe two weeks, I don't know, because the only money that I had was running the day before we worked out, and the marble had to come out, and it kind of went out, I wanted to start that place, and that was fine, and I don't know if that's where I moved to many of the U.S. It was very nice. I was still talking to many while I'm dating since early I was in the U.S.

I was in the U.S. and I was in the U.S. I went back to U and I started talking to U and I started talking to U and I said where are you going And after that I was a kid and I thought I was a kid and I was like I was like what are you doing And I said I was wearing a clothes and my wife and my personality was the law and we don't have a mask, we'll call her. And I was like, I was like, I said, no, I'm not going to have a mask, and I was just a kid, and I went back to school and I was like, I'm going to talk to you about the world.

So, there was no new life, no new life. So then, that's the most beautiful thing. But that's good. By that time, I was traveling in Miami. It was in the media, I guess, where I went back to the place. And then, I know we've been around. And, you know, this is a good start that's going on. And I couldn't tell you somebody who's been there. and I always call and go to the weather and everything that I'm going to run to the coast to New York in 1931. Oh, I'll tell you what I'm saying. In 1930, I have stayed in the coast of New York.

A lot of other things in the 1930s, I kept going by a bunch of, I left out in the bunch of, I don't bring it to it, it's written again, it's going in there. They were out of it, they were in the middle of it, they were in the middle of it, they were in the middle of it, they were in the middle of it. So when they closed up, they went about $5,000, the other two banks in the middle. There was three banks left, but they were four, and they were six, four, the other two banks. I'm a member of the five times, they didn't have over the five times almost, but they wanted to have a final life, they were the least that they had to accomplish, so they were willing to trust me to whatever.

So, if you find a bank, you know, find a bank, so I knew him, I knew his father, I knew his son. And in five times you know they started doing business with them and the middle of the school and I moved to the freshman school And I moved to the middle of my way to school and I started going to the ground I started going to the ground that was called the conference. And I was probably in December and told them I was new, We don't come down and all. We're putting our bills on the only new insurance front. That's it, uh, I'm going down to the bank.

I'm really, well, I've got married now. I've got plenty of time for marriage now. So, this looks me really really, 7 months. 7 days a month. I'm just running for God's decision. You'd think I can arrange them for some time to get up and to go. I haven't heard. So, I got to my car. And I drove both homes for you. I was in the middle of town in a U.S. store. I walked in the middle of the street and there was $280,000 in my middle street. I walked in and I told them I couldn't make clothes. I told them exactly what happened. I said, these guys are going to be used in their claims and I'm going to be able to explore them.

I said, I need $10,000 and I'm leaving at the U.S. store. I'm going to pay you $25,000 for the three months. He asked me for a statement. He didn't know in the court. That's my type of case here. I always remember. He didn't say 10 words a month. He was a Christian. At the time I was a cop-calling. He said I was mad or no. That's how he knows. He had to be a cop-calling. He had to be a cop-calling. I was taking up a lead. Finally, I couldn't say to my father. I said, did you tell me something? He said, he said, go ahead.

I said, I told you, if you and me dead, turn me down. They wouldn't want to make it for you. I told you, I said, yes, and so I told you. I told you, I told you, but I told you, you came here and told me how well you've been treated and how serious your business was. He said, I wouldn't have won you a dime. He said, I think you're telling me the truth, and I think you're a favorite. He said, I'm not going to have done it, he died. But anyhow, I met a lot of the same people. I remember Henry room what do you call it And I said don you Yeah she said don worry He said don worry Number 11 to in our kitchen That a trip right January...

Over $35,000 in most of the time. In common life, so... Put every dollar. So I'm gonna say, so I drop it right now. It's like, He talked about the highway and said it. Every time I couldn't tell it, I used to call. It was a very fine old, most of the government's country. And, uh, 24 years later, I couldn't have played the last game. So, he called, and said, come back to the country. And then, because he was a long time, and she needs to finish and stuff like that. So I said, Margaret, I want to know that she would be $39,000, and you paid every dollar.

That's because everybody loves me, so unfortunately. She said, why would you pay it all? I said, what's the time I'm trying to say? I said, what's the time I'm trying to say? I owe you the $35,000. I paid for every dollar. He said, the name is Matthew, Brian McHenry. He said, they're so, so these diamonds, and they're too high. He said, those are too high. He said, you owe them nothing. He said, I'm going to point you to the Lord. And many others, Ken and I was my solar company. I've done business for years. Medical care, I'm on the time. They're all the same. And I can remember, I actually got all paid off.

It was probably 1935, 1936 or something. That paid off in school, you know, in the first place at the time. And they were a policy that started to stick to the same issue. They were on time. So I don't see parents that have a... But I say something that they need to do this now. She said that I agree with you. So I called this fellow. I said, I think, she said, Marge, you open it up. I've been a little bit worried about all these people. I've been turned down for a while. I need to get mad. I couldn't afford to get mad. That's where you're going with my house.

I'm going with it. How do you decide to go into the various cities that you chose to go into? And the locations? The locations? I did them all myself. I used to have a caravan that I styled with. Put it in the front, everything else. So we got big enough to work with the four to hire somebody to do it. I've used it for 50,000 miles. I put on 50,000 miles every year and then I get rid of it. You don't know it. So I put it all in. It wasn't an excuse. I could have missed any years. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't do it, I enjoyed every visit.

The good days and the bad. Not too many of them were bad. How did you do it delivered? How did you do it delivered the same over the years? You're doing the same identification, you're doing the same ministry. It was in the world. Let me tell you something about the jewelry business and the diamond business, especially. This is one business all over the world. You can stop and you can walk in and print. I have a grandson, he's going to be able to walk to you. Tom's son is a friend of mine, and we are facing a row. He has maybe a hundred stops in the world in the air course.

So we're quite concerned. And when he wanted his son to come up here, he's coming up here, he's coming up here, he's coming up here, he's coming up here. And I sent my back to work with him. In the jury business, honey, it's very peculiar. Oppenheimers don't claim to be Jewish anymore, but that's okay. I've had Philip here as my visitor, Harry Oppenheimer, I've known him for years. We don agree on everything I don claim to be the guy of the Gries but we trust each other in such a way But the whole thing is a peculiar business It not what most people think We have a syndicate site that we call it our own goods Yesterday, we used to call it the new country of Mauritius, and then we quit because of them, because we were economists and officers, definitely economists, who were taking the money.

So, some of mine, you know, Joe Harrisburg, a bank of I think, we've got a lot of business to them. His stepson, went to Mauritius, and now they're not communists anymore, so he walked into our office yesterday, in New York, he wants some of our work. You know, we buy the rocks, So I would pay for it. I'm going to go up to Mexico on my side. Brazil and all these places, you know, these are Jewish people. They work together as long as we're all on our own. Can't work with people that are not a thousand percent together. About one, you know, you send a guy a million dollars worth of dollars, and you get back to the wrong thing.

You want to do it one time, that's all. But these are my people all over the world. We've done this many, many times, whether there's a chance to make them a whole. How did you initiate this contest? How did you initiate this broad contest of all of these people all over the world? I mean, it's a small business, and as we needed more of certain articles, we went to South Africa to buy them, I went to Australia. Another thing you see, don't forget this. We polish a mineral, and the mineral is not all one color. The United States is using a certain type of a diamond.

So now we've got diamonds that are better, that I can get more money out of in Japan or in Australia, or some of it is not good enough for the United States. We can sell it in the Philippines and places like that. So what the hell do you think I did? I went out and sold it to these people, or had someone go out and sell it to them or buy from them. They had certain goods that we'd used to advantage, we'd swap goods. Listen a friend of mine that in the diamond business he happens to be not Jewish He was born in Shanghai So he has a factory in Bangkok that I known the people I've known the people that operated and everything else.

He's not Jewish, he's Chinese. So he kept asking me to put a plant in China. We both could do well, but we've got two bad news. So he wrote me a letter. I was on Donnie's desk, and Donnie said, we won't investigate it, but we do have to. We have a lot of people working for us in India. We have about 1,700 people working there. We're back to building a hospital for them ourselves without partners in India. So we do a lot of polishing there. We have $2 million worth of business with these people. Of course, they're not Jewish. They're changed, but they're very reliable.

We've had some that turned out bad. I think it was lost money. I could go back. That doesn't mean anything to me. But if I made a mistake, what the hell am I going to do? Sit down and cry about it. I'm going to try to make it happen. I think I'd go right back and start over again. We have these people and seven brothers from the doctors that work for us. They don't work for us directly because the Indian government wouldn't let us own the factories. We buy all the love. We have all the money. They won't touch it. They won't let anybody else have everything they've got.

We have that type of radio relations all over the world. The Russians, you know, I was born in Russia. They were polishing diamonds. That's my right. I went to the, uh, I went to Brussels, a representative there, and I told them that I wanted to sit, and I wanted to get the government to go into Russia and talk to them. So, you got to go and sit like that. But then one of my Jewish friends, one of them, somebody told them that I was going to Russia, I was going to Russia, so he called me and said, Mark, you're crazy. You were born in Russia, you left very illegally.

Now why the hell would you go there? I said Christ they not gonna bother me I 60 years of age what the hell do you mean to rank here There a diamond business I want to know something about it I went there with them and we do a lot of business with them. That's not what's wrong with them, I'm not mad at you. I'm a merchant, nothing else, pure and simple. That's an opportunity there to make a buck and sell companies. We have stores in Germany, a friend of mine gets in bad shape. It's a jewelry business, he calls them. They go over the stores, start to switch them in France.

This is really a jewelry business, a family business. There are very few families in America. They will either 100% or else if they're not, you're going to have nothing to do with it. You'll go with the gold mirror. It's as simple as that. They say, they tell me here that I'll oversimplify, but that's the truth of it. Now, when you say family business, what family are you referring to? to the family of Jews, the family of people within Jewish culture? They're not Jewish. No, I'll tell you this. In India, we don't have any Jews there. And in Australia, we have a fellow who's not Jewish.

How about Germany? Anything we want with them, no question about the Allah, the Jewish people. In Germany, this fellow's not Jewish, but he was a member. He bought goods from the syndicate. He polished diamonds. He knew me when he'd get in trouble. But he called me. I didn't come fast enough, so he called my friend in Brazil. And my friend in Brazil called me and said, look, Marissa, this is not for me. It's to you. You take it over. So we did. What about Russia? And most of our people go there every two, three months and buy a good government. We don't sell anything in Russia.

We buy a good government. They polish diamonds. When I found out they polish diamonds, honey, that's my right. What did the government say about that? How did they... Which government? The Russian government. Did they have any... People who got to have me, why not? We don't bother them. We go there, I go to the ship. We go there, I go to the ship. I used to bring them a place to my father. I'd go to the show and had, when I first went there, the first time, you know, and I told the girl I want me to go to the synagogue, she said she didn't know where it was.

Like hell she didn't. So finally I had communist friends by that time. And I told her, I said, kid, if you don't take me, I'll get somebody else to take me. So she took me by there. She said, the place is closed. I said, honey, just let me out of here. I go to the door. The front door was locked. So I went around the back, and the Jews were sitting there. So I had dementia with a cough. I went back to the hotel, and I bought a bottle of whiskey, and they had a little stomp. No, it was just the Jews there. Then a friend of mine, Pearl, he had a brother there, I know he gets a letter, but he doesn't answer me.

So finally I told this girl that was driving us around, sort of hesitated about going there. I told her, I want you to remember, my people will see children. So I finally went up there, and I'll say one thing for them. It was a wonderful ring. It was a big bunch of barks, but both terrible. Each one of them was small, and they had a nurse come in once or twice a day, you know, and all that in that whole area. This fellow had no complaints, but he said he didn't want anybody to know that he had a brother in the United States because he convinced that he was getting a few dollars a month in the retirement from his job and so forth.

Anyhow, when I walked out there was a telephone and I sounded, you know, as many apartments as one common kitchen, so forth. The telephone, I took the telephone. So when I got back to New York, I called his brother, and I told his father, and we never. So he called his brother, and they both started crying over the phone, both ends, you know, which was no consequence, whatever. Anyhow, the brother in Russia died shortly afterwards. But I always been treated listen I came to Russia and I was treated raw earlier They gave needed special food at the show My friend no harm done The next day I had to be in Leningrad on Sunday I went to a show in the morning, but I'd never been in Leningrad before in my life.

I went to a show on the second day at Russia shop. No problem. I don't have any problem. I was at one goddamn place. I couldn't find a place. You know, if I had a York side, I'd go to the Shul. So I'm in Shanghai, and I'm at York side, and I know that they have a hell of a lot of congregations in Shanghai. It's just like one time I was in Budapest, you know, they told me there wasn't any of these. I had the biggest damn Jewish Shul I've ever seen was in Budapest, and I had to find it. Oh, okay, that's kind of a good thing.

So in Shanghai, they told me there was men, so I insisted, but there must have been something there. So finally they sent me out to a place which was really an old Russian church of some kind. I never did find it. That's the only place, you know, I've gone to the shore in Bombay, I've gone to the shore in Australia and places like that. I never had to find them on. But in Shanghai, I didn't find it on. What's your language of communication in Russian? In Russian, do they all speak English or...? In the diamond business, they all speak English and they all work on dollars.

There's no other currency available. The key area for our contracts with the Russian war, we pay them in dollars. Everything is quoted in dollars all over the world, regardless of anything. I told you, we are unfortunate enough from that standpoint, business is different entirely. We take good whether we need it or not, because we need that continuity. We spend millions of dollars. That's our business. When you're in the Shoe in Russia with the Jewish population, do they speak any English or do you speak Yiddish? I speak Yiddish, brother. I'm old-born Yiddish, you know, I tell everybody. I not a Jew for religion but by birth I a Jew 100 And I not anti But I go to a show once a year I go to the temple and Levi Olden speaks.

Now I'm crazy about Derek Klein, but I can't stand him and the rest of the speakers. I wasn't vaporized with a guy. I said, okay. I told Levi, I talked to him recently, and I said, how would he run me for you? What about your involvement with the Jewish community here? My involvement? I pay my bills. We have a foundation here, and we give away so many unsoundments all year. We take care of it. Jew, Gentile living together. We participate. That's my involvement. I'd never go there, me, you know, that's how the board is when I go. And I would go to his shore if her services weren't so damn long, because my papa used to keep me from morning till night if she don't go to the night.

They'd be married. If they got down to an hour and a half, I'd be the best number they've got. Every time I'd be in town, I'd move in. I had a very nice friend, I had two dollars before. And this is what I think we're up to. What about when you came to Dallas? Let's talk about the neighborhoods you lived in. When you first moved to Dallas in 46, where did you live? We lived first with my sister-in-law, I live in a few weeks, And then we rented a house on Southwestern. I don't think it ever bothered me when I lived back to June or something else.

I never was too particular. You know, when we lived in Wichita Falls, my wife would move and I wouldn't even know where the hell is. She'd tell me afterwards, but I wouldn't have rested in that house. I didn't let street my kids. I wouldn't have been making me where I lived. And then finally, you know, she wanted to buy a house. So I had $10,000 saved in 1939. So I told her she could buy a house up to so we bought one for We didn have money for furniture I personally have never gone in debt for anything personally, not $1. Never. I didn't need it.

What difference would it make to me if I had a young suit? If I didn't have a suit, so what if I got her pants or something? I didn't have to show off to anybody. Never did. I wouldn't buy a house on the country. I was personally, for the company I'd owe millions, hundreds of millions, but not personally. But I didn't need it. What I need was it. I travel like this. My wife buys my suit, she buys my neckties. I don't even go in the store unless she asks me to do it. I'm just that way. I told her I deserve a medal. Fifty-eight years.

I've been very, very lucky. How long did you live on South Moistad? Just a few months or a year. I don't know how long we lived there. It never made any difference to me. I had my wife, she wanted to build a house. So I went to the, I went with it to Howard Meyer. She started telling me the house, but finally he said to me, he said, listen, how much? How much do you want to spend? I said, $50,000. So after I left, she must have told me to laugh at me. You know, so. Anyhow, whatever I, whatever I contacted for had government bombs during the war.

You see, when the war broke out, that was December 7, 1941, I went to the bank the next morning, and I gave him everything I had, told him to buy a couple of dollars, because I was a refugee. I was 40 years of age, and I told him all that. The amazing thing that happened, this was at Wichita Falls. It's funny, this guy was the president of the bank. I happen to know him. So about, oh, maybe six months or a year later, you know, Ward broke down a year maybe later. There was a fellow in which Shaw Falls Bank of, that I knew, and I didn't know He had a son and I didn't get along.

Anyhow, so he had us up at a meeting today. We had a witch talk club there. The Jews were not, you know, they couldn't be members. But anyhow, as I went to that meeting, let me go back a little bit. A fellow named John, He was a big oil man in town, and he gets all of us together one day, about 30 or 40 of us. He called us in for a lunch in the place in Richter Falls. And when they started serving the lunch, he tells the waiter to get the hell out of there and closed the door. So he gets up and he says, listen, I know every damn one of you guys.

I know your bank balances. I know everything about you. And he said, this group is going to run. He said, my son went to war. He said, I didn't like it a damn work. This group is going to do everything that's necessary for the government, for the soldiers and the camp here. He said, don't any of you tell me you haven't got time. As long as my son was in the Army, by God, you fellas are going to have time to work with me on this. And I was a great guy. He was Catholic, very religious Catholic. So I began sharing with us this, that or the other, Red Cross, all these other things.

We had all these soldiers along. We had these Jewish soldiers. They claimed they needed special money for special food. I told them I were Jewish and I could eat any damn thing they served. I would rather give them that, you know. Because the Jews had the youth of the USM. We had the group of people took care of the Jews, of all the soldiers. What the hell was it? All of the soldiers? The US? All right Okay Let just open it At the US show you see that there three of us were represented We ran everything there and then at the Red Cross I think Mr Perkins came ahead of the thing, not a second.

Anyhow, I wouldn't let them keep the Jewish boards any better if we had money to spend on the soldiers. I told them they're all going to get the same. Whether they need special food, they can go to the temple and give it to them without without taking the U.S. over. So at any rate, at the end of the war, this guy called and said, all of them were leeched, you know, we were awful, but we ran everything. Anyhow, I'll start to tell you about this. So we went up to this club, and this fellow, W.M. McGregor, he gets up and he says, look, every one of us, they're going to subscribe to these bonds that the government's putting out.

Don't any of you tell me you can't afford it. And I'm sitting next to this guy that's the president in this bank that had taken my little money I had. And this guy jumps up like that, and he's sitting right next to me. I didn't know what the hell he was going to say. He said, Mr. McGregor, he said, I resent what you're saying. Mr. McGregor jumped up like that. He said, what did I do? Like that. He said, well, he said, I happened to be sitting next to a guy that I know of not doing death, personally. He came in there and turned over everything he had for me.

He said that he was going to be, he didn't want anything else except that he was a refugee himself. And he didn't want to keep a nickel that he didn't get to the government. And he said, I resent this guy. Can't even get up. He won't even get up and spend one dollar. And all of you are going to think, you know, that he's a slacker. Or don't you know that he tied up every dollar he had. And he walks out and I walk out the window. I hope you even get started talking about it. Anyhow, my wife told me she wanted to spend $50,000.

I had the government bond at that time. So she told me to go ahead and do whatever she wanted to go on the the house And I left his mom today with my secretary Margie Bandy She sold it And so she could pay for the house and move on the wall. And I said, we're supposed to have something to read from you. There's a hell of a lot more than pay for the house now. Yes. Yeah, what year was that? About what year? 47, 48. That stuff was hard to get, you know, all the clothes. Anyhow, and so then when my daughter got married, of course, you know, as long as we lived in the house, Leo lived there, the farmer, and I had all the kids there.

And when my daughter got married, I told my wife, I said, honey, I want you to sell this now. She said, you must be out of your mind. She said, this is our homestead. I said, damn the homestead, I'm never here. I said, all I want to do is have an apartment. Have one here and have one in New York. I said, all I want to do, I don't need a house to keep the two black people sitting there all summer with air conditioning and everything else. I give all the bills, look out what I needed. So we finally sold the house every two years or so.

And we've lived in the same apartment here in the apartment in New York. And it's 25, I think 26 years ago. So you sold the house in like 1959? You sold the house on Williams in like 1959 then? I think so, yeah. You know, I tell you this, I don't know if I was an exact date. whatever it is we moved to. We were living on 68th Street in New York, building this building, and we took that. So now it's easier for me. What kind of it is. I've traveled a lot of those years. Do you still do all of the initial concerts? I don't do anything, honey.

I get everybody's way. They would pay me a lot more money, honey, if I moved out of here. But I have not to need the money. I need the job or something. I need the money. But I put in 60 years in here and I have no intention to do it Have you seen a lot of change in the industry Have you seen Oh, what are the changes? Yeah, what is the change? Cost of change, I mean, it's just like automobiles. What are some of the changes you've seen? The changes in the first place are prices here. 25 times over the years. And the items that you make are not the same items we used to make.

It's constant, constant, constant change. We have groups traveling all over the world all the time just to see what is new. And I travel with them. I've gone for months at a time. I want to go back to the housing one more minute. When you moved in housing, we didn't finish. Now, when you moved to the apartment that you're presently living in, where is that now? Here? We live on... That there. Bandera. Bandera. Okay. Was there any connection then in your news to trying to save all your wife's idea of staying within Jewish community? Connection with what? Staying within Jewish community where Jewish community was living.

Does that matter to her at all? Not a bit. Not a bit. Our kids that live in New York, I have two of them. We go to the synagogue with them. We go to the temple with them. When I'm in New York. How many kids do you have? I have three plus a so-called adopted one. I have four, actually. Our first son we lost for the first time. And at the same time, Leo Field's father died just when he was born. Leo was born in 1928. And my son died in 1930. So he's lived with us most of his life, and I've always considered him and his kids the same as my kids, and they have the same shares in the company as all the rest of mine.

I have 11 grandchildren of my own and three of his, so 14 of them. And then we have, God knows how many, great-grandchildren. That's wonderful. And how many were you in your immediate family? How many brothers and sisters did you have? Just two brothers and myself. My brother, he called this morning. He was at the office in New York. My brother Bill died last year. Yes, I see. Yes. Just brought to you myself, that's all that's left. You were telling me some of the changes that you have seen in the industry about the things that you made, you know, in the industry. What are some of the other changes that have taken place?

In the industry? In the jewelry industry. In the jewelry industry, just like in the clothing industry, you're not buying the same type of dress that you used to buy. you're not buying the same type of jewelry those those earrings you got on are not what you could have bought ten years ago that's a cinch because there's always constant change listen honey this is the most affluent society in the world and we can find the right item we can tempt people to buy it but if we show the same damn thing we did last year and the year before last honey we haven't got a chance because somebody else going to show them something new this is not the type of society that people are going to buy just to have a ring to something.

If you don't show them something that's attractive to them particularly, and with the price they can afford, honey, you haven't got a chance. It's constant. Constant, constant. Right now, my son Marvin is in, I would say maybe he's in Hong Kong. He's on his way to Japan. We have some stores in Japan. We have some other offices in Japan. and he'll be there for a week. I think this morning, I think there may be 55 people in the New York office that are from these various stores. I think the Xael Division has maybe 10 or 12 people that are having a meeting there. There's constant change, honey, constant.

People don't wear the same thing they used to wear. And I'll tell you something else. A lot of people don't have the money to buy it. Now that they're working, that they have the money, we're going to try like hell and attempt them to sell them something. Just the same as the department store. Do you feel that people are buying more, the idea of jewelry is more important to people now than it used to be? Have the priorities changed? Jewelry is, well, it's an accessory. And if you notice all the people, they always wear a lot of accessories. It's not just the, you know, listen.

I travel the countries for instance in India Nobody buy jewelry damn huge they couldn afford it They lucky to have something to eat Listen, I have this beautiful suite of rooms at the hotel in Bombay. And downstairs, 20% of the people in Bombay sleep on the streets. So they're not buyers of jewelry, but if they ever had any money, honey, I could sell them every goddamn thing I've got. If you go to a society that has extra money, what are they going to do with it? Money isn't the important thing. It's a question of what people like, what they want to look like, what they want to give to somebody or anything else.

It's possible. It's a gift, excuse me, and everything else. So it's a challenge to us to find the right item above everything else. The watches or anything else have changed completely. There's no such thing. You couldn't sell the watches you did two years ago. Not a damn bit of it. You practically have to give them away to sell them. And we have a little refinery in New York. We melt millions of dollars worth of gold jewelry. Millions of dollars per year. And we recycle the diamonds, we recycle the colored stones, we recycle the gold constantly. We keep our job and we're finally going 24 hours a day.

We had, you know, that's the type of business that we're in. This is the changeable society. This is not a society in India where people are out striving for something. Now the fellow's got an extra buck. And whether, whether when he comes into a store, he didn't come in to look. He tells you he came in to look. But if you can find something to tempt him, ask him. That's your business. That's your opportunity. If you've done the proper people, I'll tell you this. Well, we have the proper people. I mean, we never have a problem in the store. I can walk into some stores.

They never have anything, right? They're always mad. They didn't have this. They didn't have that. How do you decide who are the proper people in your story? How do you take the chance? Just like how the hell do you decide who are the proper partners in India? You take your risk and you make the mistake. You hire the wrong law and people are skilled by now I had this guy Wawinski who sold millions of dollars I came back after the trial and I came up to the office and he was turned loose And they started telling me how they're going to tighten up. I said, wait a minute.

This was one man that stole that money. The rest of our people, he hasn't found that damn thing. And I don't want anybody who walked around here suspicious. I can't live with suspicion. And I can't trust him or everybody else 100%. He proved me wrong so what? That doesn't mean that somebody else is wrong, does it? I would never let him do it. I've had all sorts of instances. I'm sorry. You can't do it. I would like to go back. When you first left Fort Worth and you went to Richstaff Falls, you were very young. What was your living arrangement like? My living arrangement was kind of like a buck to where I could buy some beans.

That was my living arrangement. Did you live in a hotel? Did you get an apartment? I walked aboard a hotel. I bumped up my uncle and I'll tell you this, he used to have a meal ticket, you know. And sometime when I went into the restaurant, this Greek friend of mine, he knew my uncle, he knew me. And if I didn't have exactly, he'd punch my uncle's ticket and I'd go back and tell my uncle. And for a while I kept the books of these guys. I got my meals that way right here in Wichita Falls, right in Wichita Falls when I first came to Wichita Falls.

Because what I was getting, I'd send my mama the money. That was a different story entirely. How long did you live with your uncle in Wichita Falls? Well, I lived with him and I lived with Max Shane. I would say off and on, listen honey, I never stayed in Wichita Falls very long. I was in Berkmanet, I was in Graham, when I was in Wichita Falls. Then of course I got married in 1926 Do you understand Uh So then of course I had to be by myself I lived with my exchange I lived with my uncle How did you make your living arrangements? My what?

Your living arrangements. You knew that well. That's where I went into it. I didn't have a family around there. I was all by myself. What difference did it make to me where I slept? Did people have boarding houses? Did you know with families? I was just in the boarding house in Graham. For what? No, I just want to know the style. I can't see it. There were four on the floor, and I was one of the boarders, one of the roomers, and I'll tell you, the luckiest part of it was, across the street, there was a banker there. He was the president of the bank.

And, of course, until he died, he was the best friend I ever had. Because when I came to Iowa, I had some problems. He stuck with me 100%. His wife, his kids were all the same as my family. Years when the daughter, the oldest daughter, had her 50th anniversary, I had never taken my wife to. She called me. She said, sale. You've got to come to this 50th anniversary. So I hired a plane. We flew to Graham. Could I have to be back that night? There was some other affair here in town. I went there and took my wife there. My wife had never been to Graham.

She said she'd always heard me talk about it, but I always had some other place to go. That's the history of my life. Tell me about the meal ticket arrangement. You mentioned the meal tickets. How did that work? And in those days, you buy a $5 meal ticket for $4.50. But I didn't have the $4.50. So my uncle would keep this meal ticket, and he'd save $50.50. About $5.00. And in those days, Wichita Falls was a town maybe 10,000 population, 12,000 population. They had another Greek that was a friend of mine, Alec Fell. He had an ice cream parlor. The kid, the fellow that died, and he was crazy about ice cream.

We used to go there. That's a lot of time. Yes, sir. That's the history of my life. It's really interesting. And I've had a great time. No regrets. I made a lot of mistakes made up for him as well as I could, and that's about all. He's one of my mistakes up in the world, are you serious? No, seriously. I've enjoyed it, I told you. I never personally owed a dime to anybody on personal. You said you kept books. How did you learn to keep books? How did I learn to run it? Necessity is the mother of invention, kid. And when you had to balance out, and I went to a little night school in Fort Worth for a little while, and I learned debits and credits.

So that's what I was doing when this guy came out on a sudden, Horace, you're standing there for hours writing up this stuff, and for $15 a month he said, I'll keep it for you. So he did. And the improvement in his writing is tremendous in this garland. But that's the way it was. Necessity will teach you one hell of a lot. I haven't sent my mother the money. Great lesson to me. You learn how to live on a very little. And what do I need anyway? You know, the first 15 years of my life, I had a blindfolded. He was in cold clothes. He used to bring me a pair of shoes, you know, they had a little hole in them or something, a pair of pants.

They didn't have a new suit. I guess I was buying my mom or something like that. But that was okay. I didn't sell them. I didn't have good sons. He had lots of good sons. Tell me about your bar mitzvah. About what? Your bar mitzvah. I don't even remember it. It was in Fort Worth at the time. My father was very religious until the day he died, you know. I had him out here. We couldn't take care of him in Fort Worth. I didn't have anybody. We had a family living with him. A family that couldn't take him. You know, he had to go to a doctor.

He had to do all these other things bathing all this stuff So I finally got him over here to some roost or another My brother was living in Denver Colorado My other brother was living in New York So I put him in the old folks home in there. And you know, until the day he died, he was mad at me about it. He didn't want to be done. He was very upset. Nothing I could do about it, because I was on the road all the time. I couldn't have it at home. We didn't have anybody to leave and with it. Then I wouldn't have it on the house, a lot of kosher or everything else.

And your mother? Your mother? My mother died. She died before us. She died. My mother died and I was in... You know the peculiar thing is when these funerals happen, I was in Massachusetts. I think North Alabama, Massachusetts, there was a very war. I think about 1940, 1942. Mama died and I don't know how they found me. They found me in this Lee Stage. I was calling up Don Lee Stage at the time. I used to go up to all these places. They called me and of course that was the time the war was on and you couldn't get on the airplane board and you couldn't get on the train or something.

I don't remember. My wife wasn't good, but she was in New York and I was way up in the province. were saying, hotel and poverty. And you know the funniest thing about that, when Aaron died just the other day, what happened was, I had brought him to New York to be with him, the 24th yard call, because he wanted to go to church. And he was a cousin of the year. My cousin. And he called everyone on a Saturday night as we went to this apparel, I got busy, he got busy. Thursday he called Edmund and said they wanted to go to the Chinese place.

Would we join them? So Edmund called Pearl on Fort Aide Street there where he was a poor. And we went there and had a good time. That was Thursday night. Friday morning I had to fly. I served on the board of trustees of Brandeis So I had to fly up there they were having a meeting in Bedford Massachusetts I think that's how I got this guy in the end. And I went up there to this meeting, and the meeting was supposed to finish Sunday afternoon. So Saturday night, about 2 o'clock in the morning, I got called Jimmy, but Aaron died. At first I didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

You know, you're asleep and you get this call, and here I am in Bedford. How the hell he found me, I'll never know. He must have called Brandeis and woke up somebody and had told him I was there. At any rate, he had gone to that, he died that night. That night he was on the Alphard. He and I used to go to Alphard and we were on the other way. I had a great lover of opera. She also studied opera at Jumeirah. So we went to the opera, and his favorite opera was Opel M. And on the third act, they had an intermission. And when they started going back to his seat, I was born back and he ripped a seat that way and passed away.

So anyhow, I couldn't take it. We've been together for 70 years. At the time we were born in North Korea. This is Aaron Kruger you're talking about. Aaron Kruger. Aaron Kruger, yeah. Many things that happened between us and with us. Very fond of them. I told them I had a funeral. I was at the airport. I flew back to New York on Sunday morning. And we waited at the airport until I saw both the doctors. We weren't going to leave the theater. The person said they couldn't do it. All that other shit. So then after they loaded the body, I had to go back to my apartment.

I had a lot of appointments for Monday. I made a lot of calls with people. I told them I was going to the funeral. I did that on Tuesday morning. So Saturday Monday morning I took a plane from New York I left New York at 7 o I broke the apartment at 6 o I flew to Dallas and Dallas was bogged in. I couldn't land here. So they flew around here for an hour and a half. And then I worried that the killing was going to be at 2 o'clock. I had to leave the house at 1.30. She was going to get there, to the funeral park.

So here I am in a damned airplane house. She's out there on the van. And the pilot announced that they were running lower on fuel. And the tunnel was giving me the address of the nearest station to fuel up. It happened to be Austin. When we get to Austin, they're not about to let anybody out on the plane. They were just going to take fuel and go back. I showed my ticket was to Austin, so I got off. My cousin was standing there waiting at the airport in front of me. His sister talked to her last night. So I got to the house at 1.20 and we had to live at 1.30.

And then I had all these damn appointments, so I had to go back to New York at night. came home at 2 o'clock in the morning. And that's the morning I had to be off the shore. I went there. I was going to try to bury them. Hard, hard, hard. But that's the history of my life. Any other things you want to share with us? Anything else? No one. Anything else you can think of that you'd like to tell us about? No, I can't. I could sit here for a day. People remind me of things, you know. And listen, a lot of the stuff I've built up in my mind, these things maybe didn't happen exactly like that.

You understand what I mean? I don't mean to lie about it. How the hell can I remember 60 years? I never kept a diary in my life. I never wrote down anything. I keep telling my wife that she should have kept a diary or something, you know. Somebody should have written something. I just never did. I'm just not the type. First place, it doesn't make a damn big difference what happened yesterday. What's gonna happen today is like when I walk into the store, he said, you had a good month last month. I said, thank you very much, but I've eaten every damn dollar of that.

And it's what you're doing for me today, ...now, and that's the truth of the matter. So you could go on and talk and talk and talk and go on. I don't know what to do about it. I've got this guy that's supposed to be writing a book. There's a guy at one time, they hired somebody from Texas University and they want to write a book for a company. I never paid any attention to it. So finally a guy comes up and he talks to me. Of course I'd leave town or leave the country or something, and a month later he'd come to be again, we'd start talking about something, and a month later, and then about maybe six months later, a year later, you know, they think they've got it all down.

So when I read it, there was no connection, there was no goddamn nothing. I tore it up, I told them I don't want anything of that principle, it didn't make sense. I'm telling you these things. I don't know. I'm only telling you what I can remember. I wish I had been. I don't know. I wish I had been. I don't know. Who the hell would be the answer to this? And why would they be? Learn a lot. They're not going to give me. So this guy, he's coming up here next Saturday. He called me and wanted to come up today. Is that so? Did he talk to you?

Yeah, he did. So he'd ask me a question, and I'll answer them the best I can, but don't make it a sin. Because they're different than the other things. You know, then somebody would come up and ask me something about business, you know, that's looking for a different side of them. I don't know what the hell I'm telling them exactly what I remember about the particular transaction. Maybe I'm telling them exactly the way it was, and maybe I'm not. That's your perception, though. That's your perception. That's how you see it. And that's important. I see it that day. That's right. But other days I might see it a different way.

You know, all these things that will happen. I want to ask you about some of the Jewish activities that you have participated in, the Jewish groups, and projects that you have funded or have been involved in with the Jewish community? I've always done what I think is right now. I don't agree with a lot of the things that they do, and I wouldn give them a quarter to it I get calls all the time about certain things But you know why I have a Cougar trainee My mother never had a quarter but they had a pushy you know a box and she put that in there And if a Jew came by with a big belly and told her he needed something to eat, she'd give him everything she had in the house.

So I'd say that if I can find people that really need food, or really genuinely need help, but not to set up a foundation with a director to have a lot of overhead and everything else and nothing goes to it. I like to give to something that I can see what the hell they're doing with the money. I just can't. They called me last night about something. It's just one of these things. Okay, Brandeis had some thing where they were going to advise the Egyptians to participate in this, that, or the other. And they wanted me to give them $25,000, whatever the hell it was, for the shuttle.

I told them I wouldn't give them a quarter. So you know what happened? They didn't talk to me. They talked to Leo. He gave me $25,000. I don't tell them what to do with it. So I have to laugh myself. He didn't know that I turned them down. I didn't tell him whatever it was nice to make. He sees at the office, so he does it. We have this problem. I told him that he gets away the money when he wants to. That's where I've always gone. I don't tell the other fellow how I build. I never told my brother. Whatever he wants to do with his money, that's up to him.

How do they make these decisions then? How do they make these decisions? I have no idea. I know how I make a decision. So as far as the moment, I won't be bothered about that. But I'd like to see, if I give some money, I'd like to see somebody get some new sell-in. than not just go to executives. I don't need more executives. We got more damn executives than any other company in the world. I need somebody who will produce a dollar, and when I give something, I want to see some results for it. Otherwise, I'd rather give it to the people that have helped me earn it.

So and let them give it away All right least now I just not a conformist That's fine. That's fine. I do it my way, and whatever they say about me, I should worry. I'm not trying to make an impression on anybody. They never did. Well, I sure do appreciate the time. Okay, this is Harold Chapman. Harold has worked for the Zale Company for 46 years. He made me a living for 46 years. Okay, I went to work for this company in 1937 when they had seven stores. Mr. Morris Zell was living in Wichita Falls and I went to work with his brother William Zell. And I was a very, very religious man at the time and I told Mr.

William Zell, I didn't know they were Orthodox Jews, so I said, one thing Mr. Zell, I won't work, young Kipper, or I won't work two days Rosh Hashanah. He said, that's alright. After he hired me, I noticed that he and his brother Morris always talked to me. to their father in jewish and i know about their father being religious because one of them had their son's with fire ministry and i made arrangements for their father to stay over my grandmother's house because he wouldn't have to ride the show for the bar mitzvah i remember that's right the deal of of what they've done in the city and in the world i know about the deal is when they started the six day war and israel needed money they didn't need the uja they sent the money straight to israel leaving you uh mr morris there when he had a prostate attack and he went

to baylor hospital he saw that they needed emergency rooms much nicer what they had when he built the Johnson Wings the Zale Foundation paid for the emergency rooms and furnishments also if I remember right Leo Fields had a baby passed away at Children's Medical Center and at that time they gave a whole surgical department at the Children Medical Center okay our business We sold everyone and a lot of our customers have been black So when they built the Bishop College the Zale Foundation gave the Bishop Library And all the different hospitals and all this, Brandeis, they've done a world of things for Brandeis because they

know that the people that are qualified can get a good education. In Southwestern Medical, they've done a lot in Southwestern Medical, but they don't go around advertising and they don't care for the publicity. I had a black lady walk in my store in Oak Cliff that I managed for 37 years, and this lady says, I know the Zale family because the Zale Foundation sent my daughter to medical school, and she is now a doctor in Los Angeles. And they have sent many, many black people to medical school and others. And the thing is, they don't care what their color is or what their religion or what their race is.

They've covered all, all of these people. And the thing is that they never wanted publicity on this. This is different from a lot of people I know. And the situation of people working for them. Now I'll never forget, and Mortifale knows about it, is the time that I wanted to build a home. And Al David Rosenzweig, the builder, says, Now Harold, you have to deposit $50,000 in Republic Bank that I can draw on to pay the people that work me on the home. And I came to M.B. Zell, and he says, I'll tell you what. You go to Republic Bank, and I'll arrange it for you.

Well, I didn't know that he told them he would guarantee my number. So I went down there with Donald Zell, his son, and Donald Zell says, the vice president, his name was Mr. McGuffey. I said, Mr. McGuffey, Harold Shacklin, my father's adopted son, he needs $50,000. So he says, Mr. Shacklin signed right here. Well, I didn't know that he said he would guarantee it. Now don't forget, I was an employee, I wasn't a relative. So they transferred the $50,000 to over to Alabama and Rosenstein. So then they gave a luncheon for me when I was with the company 35 years, and And M.B. Zell got up and he said, I'll tell you what, I called the bank three months later and said, you never asked me for my signature for Harold Shaqlin's role.

He said, Harold Shaqlin never needed your signature, so that's the reason we didn't call him. Over a period of years, I came up here at the office, the general office, every Sunday, and I sat with William Zell, Morrisville and Ben Lipschitz. No one else was actually up here and I've grasped all the knowledge that I could from these people because uh they they had a Morrisville has a way of doing it but for 20 minutes after I walked out of his office on Sunday morning I felt like I was a big a stockholder in the company as he was and after 20 minutes I said you know I'm Harold Jackman.

I'm not Maury Zell. But the thing is, he's talking about the healthy employees. The deal is, this one man, I just, I don't want to talk about a group, but I talk about this. This one man, his family, his children, multi-multi-millionaires, his employees, if we lined up every employee of his If it was worth a million dollars or over, you'd be surprised how many people we would line up. And it's just like I said, one of his Marvin and Clawley's, Marvin and Ruthie, told me something that I knew. He says, Marzell is a business genius. But another thing is, being a business genius, I always had a feeling for people.

and if the Salvation Army needed money tomorrow they'd call in and say we need to feed 5,000 people or whatever it was they would get the money so fast their head was in. But he doesn't have any one test thing. He's interested in anything where he can help people and his wife, his life is very very interesting I know it's backwards and forwards and I've had people that question why did he do this or that and I've got an answer for him. The thing is that his employees have always highly respected Now when they first started the managers meeting in New York and they came to me and said Harold you going to the first meeting and you going to stay at the Waldorf Astoria This is like you know I couldn believe I going to New York and stay at the Waldorf Astoria At that time, the room for $15.

Well, one thing I've never seen Morris say, okay, it's a briefcase. You see every manager walk in and they got a briefcase. Well, he keeps a little scratch pad and he makes a note and he gets up and he makes a speech. But, or he never put out any formalities, but we have, but he actually organized the New York office, all these foreign offices, and he was right. He was the man. But it's just amazing what a man can do. It's just a, well, really, and don't forget, this man didn't have no high education. I can understand people today, they graduate from Brandeis and they go to school for years and years, and they do accomplish things.

But this man accomplished it without that education. And he, I tell you, he always took care of his family. In other words, different people in his family, if they were uncles or cousins or whatever it is, he never forgot his family. That's the way a lot of people, they said, well, you know, they forget their family. But this man is, I know all this. And the thing is, I more likely know it better than his own children. Because his children were babies when I went to work. So I think if I could tell his children a lot of things that they don't actually know. But he did, Leo Fields was treated the same as his children, and he never adopted him actually, but he lived with him and he raised him, and every time he gave his children a dollar, Leo Fields got a dollar.

And this man, as far as I'm concerned, is conscious. And I would, I could talk. Like he says, he could talk for hours. I could talk for hours, but he knows that I highly respect him. You've done a lot of work in Israel. We've got a whole business in Israel. We have a lot of problems. We take a lot of diamonds that come out of Israel. This company does that. Then, see, we do business with AdWords. We do business with London. And we got these we take over a company like we took over in England where we bought 30 stores and we got maybe over 70 now There's 105 stores.

I've been in the London office and this is what happened. but it's a it's a really a uh it's really a mystery it's it's actually the interview you had with mr marzell is just to me is amazing amazing that a man could could actually do this and do that much for his family you talked about leo field what happened to him what happened to You know, Phil's mother lives here in Dallas, and that's his sister-in-law. Oh, but his father passed away. His name was Phil Schmidt, and his father passed away when he was a baby. And that's where Marzell came in, because that was his nephew.

But this is, I could name cousins and uncles and everything else that he didn't. Paul. Now when he talks about Aaron Krueger I could tell you many many things what he did for Aaron Krueger. Would you like to share? Well I mean he uh in other words Aaron Krueger was in business in Austin Texas and Aaron Krueger got where he needed help and Morris Dale went to his rescue and got him back on his uh financially and now the man when he passed away he's got five stores. He got three stores in Austin, one in Killeen and one in Tampa. And his family's in very, very shame because of Marsdale, he got back on his feet.

You said something earlier about American, or rather commercial medals and the involvement of... Commercial medals, see what happened, but what really happened, and I live in Wichita, Paul, my wife's sister. Her husband was in the middle of the district. And he had some bad times. He didn't know what to do. And I had never been in the office. So that's why he called me one day and one night. And I was going to take off with my dad. And he called back. And we had a lot of problems. So I spent him on the time. He had all over it. And the same thing happened to Jake The big problems were there in the environment When I moved to Dallas I hadn seen Jake in years I was walking down Elm Street or Main Street one day I see this guy, and he sees me, and he starts talking.

And then come to find out he lived in the same neighborhood that I lived in. I never bothered anybody. I got my home from my country. So he was living in on the street and I was living right in the back of him, and he was living in the back of me, I could always get him in the back. And then we started getting together, you know. And one day, he would have some problems with the Macquarie on the situation. And he would have some problems with the speculation. I was talking about the money in the world. I didn't feel in good shape. I had many problems.

So finally he said to me one day, he said, listen, I've been in your office so many times. You've never been in your house. I said, so long. He said, I wish, Charlie, you'd come down. Absolutely the only time I had time to come down, I'd go on this path. So he said, you need me to come down? I said, yes. I got all of them. When I walked in, I saw his desk. Jay called my wife and I heard you were a junior. He said, well, you take over. I said, I did. I said, I went over and I went over to him. I was paying.

I said, I didn't even know. I took over. I had my people come up and we had 90 people come up. We had, two months, we had 35. We failed to run. They were doing some speculating. I don't know if I'm going to buy something. I buy something, I don't care. I don't care where it's over $400 an ounce or $40 an ounce. and I was like, you want to speculate, why don't you close it there? But she just told me, you saw it up in the office, in the Irish building in some places. She said, okay, you do whatever you want. To this day, I did that for years, finally went up to seven years, and I was like, My tired, and I, I, I, my brother, I didn't have the guts to make him, he was Charlie and Herman, but I changed the whole business, put him on the stock exchange.

I have never, in my life, I've had a lot of people in life, but never, because I've been treated like he's treated. We never had to go, never saw the world, and this is what I did, he was bored 100%. We have to do it. I was wondering if they had, I didn't want to help them on something like that. So this is in 1954. So today, there's no problem. I enjoyed doing all I did to. I enjoyed all of it. I enjoyed your step. I enjoyed it. And V, actually, how are you kin to Jake Feldman? It's through your mother, I think. Well, I'll tell you what, his mother, Jake Feldman's father was a brother of my aunt, and he married to Sam Kruger.

There was a peculiarity there. Sam Kruger was my mom. I always had a difficult time with him. He was nice and all that. He and I differed on certain things that we were always close to. But his wife, I was always very close to her. If anything happened, she always called me, regardless of what happened. And she used to call me blessings when the kids were small and couldn't say Mars. She would call me blessings. I don't remember again. One night I lived in the end of Switzerland. and Maddie called. She said, first down here, and finally that just the way it was I don know where to tell these people I especially if it hadn been for him if it hadn been for Sam I would probably have never left Russia.

And it has been for the fact that we've been in the community, and I've never been in that time. There's been somebody else that's not here. So I was locked off. I've been frustrated. What's the issue? I don't want to socialize, I don't want to party. I hate to go. I just don't want to walk. I make these speeches, they don't have a word. They can't take them. I'm sorry. I have a charm by himself. No complaints. No, I tell you, I would like for you when you get home to put on tape the history of the company like when it was founded which is 1924 which Mr.

Zell told you that their headquarters is in Dallas and they have all these affiliations and that working on and it will tell you here that they are in 49 states and we go through a lot of different names besides Zell George. We're the Gilman Bishop, which is our finest stores like Hardin's. And then we have leased apartments and department stores all over the country. And we have catalog stores, and then we're in the mail order business. And I would like for this to be added to the tape of the power. In other words, we are known as the world's largest jewelry. In other words, no one's larger than this company.

Imagine we have around 16,000 floors. How did you decide to get into all of these areas that you're into and all of these? You must remember what happened. See, when General Electric synthesized diamonds. Yeah. It was about 1960 or somewhere along there. I've always felt like there's so many changes. I could see changes all the time. I was pregnant. You see the base of this business is the diamond business The bank Of course we have many other things So I felt I felt like the retailers the baseline business was retail and they used a lot of them, but the base of it was retail. So I felt like we'd take off retail.

So the first one that came on retail was a skillet drugstore thing, and what I found out was that unless you moved it, to spend your life in front of you. You haven't got a chance. You just don't understand the chance to accomplish. But the drug business, even though other people were making a tremendous success in the backtalk, we had ordinary people who were good, good, right? We had all these other businesses with other people trying to circle around. And as a drill we didn't, we had the new ones. So finally, we decided that the best bet was to go back into the jewelry building.

And decided to go to the store and go to the store and go to the store. But occasionally, we picked up something. So now we're operating at the airport and things like that. The airport is the point of the face of the business. You or somebody will stay with it. I think one of the main things is that M.B. Sale changed with the tides. In other words if white gold watches was in style he made all the white gold watches. But when we changed the yellow gold, he changed the yellow gold. If the brown watches was in shape that's what he made. But this was very very important you change it like he says David.

What we do today, we may not want to do tomorrow. No, nothing. I sit here, and I sit here and I do all these checks, and see everything, and these figures are normal. Maybe you learn, and listen, I want you to know something. Yeah, I want you to know, Peter. Unless somebody does it that way, I agree. There's nothing to happen because there'll be some small fellow I told my kids that's walking around barrel-free today and just running for a rabbit and it's happening right today. But they don believe it They don believe it They think they making a revolution either in college and I was not the real one Now see, a lot of these things will change.

When M.B. Zell and Ben Lipschitz, the detail they do now, when they stop doing this detail, it won't be taken on by anybody else. I'm sure MBE will agree. See, in other words, as big as this company did, we get a billion dollars one year. They check every invoice and every check before it's mailed out. Now, they know that this will not be done when they stop doing it. And not so much the mail out. Most people will get their business with. We continue to get their business with. I've said many times I'll talk to them. and they have the checks to get. They just have very few people.

People who pay them, not just my card, they're going to need anything like that. It's not really just that way. But somebody has to understand everything. One thing I want to bring out, like the Conference of Christians and Jews and the Jewelry Division in New York. Now they've honored MB-Zail and raised quite a bit of money that they afford to work with the Congregation Jews and with the Brandeis he's got many many honors with them because they highly respect him and he's really highly respected in the jewelry industry because anybody any manufacturer of any size in the United States they know M.B. Sale because they know that he the way he built his business and if he says that he's going to do something or if he promises he's going to purchase something then there's no question in their mind that this is going to be exactly that way and this business see we never have to sign a contract I'm going to check the 20th.

Look through the telephone and there's nothing that we saw. Nothing. That's no problem. I'll tell you, there's a very different business than any other business. And I'm strictly on caution. And it isn't because they like it or don't like it. It's a person who each other has to make a decision. And our business has to be business. It can't be done by friendship. There's no other way. He says our main business is a diamond business. We sell other items, but you've got to make your diamond business the most important department in your stores, or you're in bad shape. It's a challenge, and how people travel, and salon, and regardless.

Okay. Well, I sure thank you. Okay. Testing, testing. 1, 2, 3, 4, testing. 1, 2, 3, 4, testing. Ginger Jacobs, 7060 Brookshire, Dallas, Texas. 636385167523 or testing, testing. 1, 2, 3.