Steve Gutow
Steve Gutow was born on February 25, 1949, at Baylor Hospital in Dallas. His parents, Ruth Elaine (Shankman) and Albert Gutow, grew up and fell in love in Detroit, though his mother was born in Toronto and his father in Newark. His paternal grandparents, Abraham and Rose Gutow, had come from the Poland and Russia region to Newark before settling in Detroit, where his grandfather worked as a butcher and served as an observant, scholarly presence at an Orthodox congregation. Steve was the second youngest of four children, alongside brothers Billy and Andrew and sister Marcia. His younger brother Andrew died in a bicycle accident in England in 1992, and his sister Marcia died after a long struggle with early onset Alzheimer's.
Steve grew up in University Park and later near the Jewish Community Center, attending Mrs. Varner's school, Hyer, Dealey, and Arthur Kramer Elementary, then Benjamin Franklin junior high and Hillcrest High School. He became bar mitzvah at Shearith Israel and was deeply involved in AZA, serving as a leader of Kaplan chapter. With a close circle of friends he helped start the Christmas Day Classic, a beloved touch football tradition that has continued for decades across generations. He was profoundly shaped by his mother's Democratic activism, including work for Kennedy, and by a love of poetry sparked by a seventh grade teacher. He studied at the University of Michigan, SMU, and the University of Texas, graduating with a degree in history, then hitchhiked across America and around the world.
Steve earned a law degree from the University of Texas and practiced law in Dallas, staying active in civic and environmental committees and chairing the Jewish Community Relations Council. He organized progressive city politics in Austin, later ran a statewide coordinated campaign, launched an AIPAC regional effort across the Southwest, and moved to Washington to found the National Jewish Democratic Council. Feeling he had lost his poetic and spiritual center, and moved by experiences in Cambodia and at Angkor Wat, he entered the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College in his fifties. He later served a synagogue in St. Louis, led a national umbrella of Jewish community relations organizations for more than a decade, and now, as a research scholar at New York University, builds interfaith leadership groups. He offers a lifelong message to open one's heart, listen, and love others.
He offers a lifelong message to open one's heart, listen, and love others.
Full Transcript
thank you for doing this by the way you're welcome you're welcome good morning today is friday december 27th i have my name is mitchell myers i have the pleasure and honor of interviewing steve guto for the dallas jewish historical society good morning and happy hanukkah back at you thank you very much so will you tell me your full name or gamlika if you want to do it here we want to do in texas neither one is good for me my full name my formal full name yeah stephen howard and do you know why your parents selected that name for you either of those names i
think it might but it's going to take some effort my name was in hebrew i i i don't know the howard haley don't know that's okay and uh where were you born when and where were you one i was born february 25th 1949 in baylor hospital florence nightingale was the place uh in dallas texas very nice and were your was your mom and dad from dallas or did they move here somewhere else they moved here they grown up both of them and fell in love in detroit but my mama was born in toronto and lived there for about five years and my dad was born
in newark and didn't live there i don't think all that long not five years uh and they their their parents and families came so tell me detroit from from detroit to dallas no i'm sorry my grandfather and grandmother had moved from um from poland poland russia uh to to newark and then at a very young age of my father that family moved to detroit my dad my granddad was a butcher my mother her parents were her mother was born in scotland and she moved to toronto and she married a guy named william shakeman who i don't know because he died pretty young but he was
my grandfather and um they they then moved to detroit when my mother was five years old okay i got it now so let's go through this one more time tell me your grandparents names on your father's side and your mother's side my grandparents on my father's side were abraham and ruth and rose and guto is the last name on on my father's side but i i i could guess at her actual you know last name but i just don't remember it i think it was like letterman but i don't even use that i guess that's in there so doesn't it um and my uh gran
my grand mother her name was dorothy shankman i think pearlman was her maiden name and she married this guy william shankman who i as i said i didn't know because he died in a car accident at 37. okay and then tell me your mom and dad my mom is named ruth uh elaine um shankman then guto born shame and then gouta and my dad was albert guto i don't know i don't think he had a middleman okay any brothers and sisters i do i have uh two brothers and one sister um my oldest brother is billy gouteau and he's about eight years older than i am um he's a you know real involved in the city of dallas in different ways business and the jewish world he and his wife and barbara and their kids uh and then i have a brother and sister
who both passed my young my youngest the only person younger than me in my family was andrew guto who i know you know because you all were friends and he died in a car accident in great britain with his wife in 1992 a truck a drunken truck driver ran him over while they were riding their bike at the southern part of the island in britain near bath and my older sister died about five or six years ago from about with a long bout with early onset alzheimer's uh you know but it was only in the last two or three years that she really didn't know
who i was at least and probably most people were in her name marcia gayle marshall andrew julius gouteau is andy my younger brother and my sister was marsha gail gutier and the brother still alive is william robert guto billy call him billy so um thanks for all that is that too much no that's all great that's good good information so i just now shift it back to you again and just talk about your childhood where you grew up i guess elementary school years and if you enjoyed it the friends you made talk a little bit about that um yeah i had a great childhood i
was born i'm not a hundred percent sure at the date of my birth but i think we had already moved to preston hall and not preston hall to university park and i lived on centenary drive four i don't remember that and um it was a you know relatively spacious home um it was on this between preston road and tulane and i you know enjoyed the the block and the neighbors and the dogs we had we had a dog named fuzzy who protected me no matter what um i had a woman who took care of me named mrs c rad who i don't know except by
those you know those old uh 35 millimeter rolls they used to take and she was there people said she was demanding and would not allow anyone but her to have control of me they make jokes about mrs c right at me and i went to uh higher elementary school at first i went to mrs varner's which was a private school in the neighborhood that a lot of people went to i don't remember like i probably got through there by first grade but it might have even gone to first grade there but i then went to higher for about a year and then i we moved
out to right near the jewish community center we moved to mason dels and saint jude's in fact we were kept caddycorn from each other you and me which and um i um went to daily for a semester because arthur kramer which is still going on which means it's going on a long time um it wasn't built yet so i started for one semester maybe maybe a year the second grade in dealy and then i went to arthur kramer for the rest of my elementary school life nice and at this time did you have a lot of family around i know your mom and dad and
your siblings but were there other family members around their works my dad's my dad's two sisters lived here um and they had husbands and children my uncle my uncle ervin irwin irvin uh he was married to my dad's sister irene their name was yannick and my cousins are named robert yannick and mimionic they had two children and they're still here and they still aren't doing okay i think i don't see them a lot it's not there's no i like them you know i just don't hang out that much with them uh i don't live here so when i come back i tend to you know
really limit it's limited to how much you can do uh i should see them i feel a little guilty about that but then also my um my dad's younger sister who died quite young died in her 20s uh was named evelyn and she married mervyn goodman evelyn gutel married marvin goodman she died about 27 of cancer and her two children were albert goodman who was a soulmate kind of cousin there's a couple or three of those in you know in the world uh and uh his sister suzanne and suzanne's still around and we you know we don't see each other enough we see each other
on facebook i suppose and we see each other in a family occasion it's very rare but i do love love her and i really loved albert he died quite not too long ago actually als a bad illness we'll get to that but so there was a lot of family around happy times you know yeah yeah we we we would go to detroit where my mom's sisters were um quite often maybe every year as a little boy a lot of trips and then my my mom's brother was in columbus we'd go there every now and then or where they come here you know there's a lot
of my mother's mother would come stay with us every year for about three months dorothy shankman and um and you know my grandfather a my father's father was was orthodox and quite knowledgeable and scholarly and often at the gudasaki which i don't even know if it still exists but it was the orthodox show he would take the place of the rabbi when the rabbi was out and um he was a sweet man and my grandma rose was a sweet woman so there's a lot of that so were they i think they're very religious did that filter down to you and your siblings and your family
uh when you were growing up i mean there was a religion part of your growing up it was very important but i wouldn't say that anybody was that i mean maybe they were closer i know we weren't um maybe my grandparents were kosher i don't i don't think anyone else was but um but yeah we grew up in a conservative show um and which had a big part of my life i mean not just then but late but later um so yeah no you know i'm a rabbi you i don't know if you know that but i i i'm very religious but i'm not very
um i'm not traditional and i'm a reconstructionist rabbi um and i think judaism has always been very broad it's not been tied to written strict ever but people don't know that they just presume that the way that our sort of eastern european you know predecessors were was everything and it wasn't like your grandfather my grandfather i think they must have been kosher but i don't know that for sure okay so it was a part of your life growing up going to kramer and uh now you're gonna you're entering your bar mitzvah years your bar mitzvah at shared israel i was tell me about that was
that fun was that good was that a stressful for you i i think it might have been stressful but what i would odd to me is i don't remember it very well i mean i do remember it and i do you know kind of remember the event and the parties uh we were sheriff israel was already where it is now i didn't move from south dallas when i was born um but i i don't have you know i know i know it was hard to learn um the haftara and the um in the torah reading i don't know that i said the torah reading i
don't know that we did that so much then um i you know i was judaism was very important to me i was deeply into my like aca chapter and my friends there are still my friends you and i became friends not so much because of the achievement because your your your oldest brother was a friend but his your next oldest brother which is like one of my best friends and we were right across the street and i watched you grow up yeah that you did so uh you used to be a little bit tired i don't know what happened well let's talk about your friends
and growing up and now junior high school and uh aza was that a part of your life and it's a big part i was uh the olive gadol of kaplan aza i had a lot of funny stories about that to if i wanted to say them a lot of memories and you know we had a we had a group called uh the playboy club which was um a little bit he was a little shady we wanted to be outside the purview of the jewish community and one of our members alvin miller you know he's he was the one who kind of got this idea together
and i suppose it wasn't shady that'd be the wrong word but it was you know it was certainly counter cultural and it was a little revolutionary we but but we were really mostly in aca but kaplan was the kind of the crazy people in not that you know we weren't the scholars we weren't the normative the people that were going to be at the country club so much this was at least our self-perceptions and other people's perceptions we were we were out there you were self-aware of that at what 15 years old right i mean not yourself that kind of stuff very nice so uh
i've talked to uh some people that grew up you grew up with and they talked about this this christmas day classic can you touch on that a little bit or explain how that came about or what that means and what that means to you sure we were all pretty deeply involved in sports i wasn't one of the better athletes but i was you know into it and pretty intense um competitive as it gets always competitive i was i mean maybe the most competitive of the group but until you came along but but i was out there i mean nobody would question that um and then
we decided we played put all the time we loved football we loved smu and we love the cowboys and we played at kramer we played at the jewish center and then when we were about 14 we went to the jewish center i guess and started playing there we had one classic not at the jewish center it was at preston hollow park but almost all we're at the jewish center and uh we started playing on christmas day and it became a great ritual we had um we we we had the teams were we were set up by myself who was eventually called the commissioner and a
guy named warren cayman but the two of us would meet on the night before the classic aft the late in the evening and we'd come out the two of us and we would announce the teams and it was like a big deal um it doesn't happen nowadays i don't even know how i came this last year i don't know how you form the teams um but it was it was a lot of fun it was you know stories are legendary there were a lot of newspaper stories over the decades we you know we had a big 10th big 20th a big something else the big
40th 50th everybody would come together with their families and show up and it was it was a pretty amazing thing but you could actually follow the classic with the dallas morning news or the texas jewish post either one of those you can follow it because there were a lot of stories and some television stories of a classic so it's it's actually an amazing thing and i had i hadn't been involved so much i did come this year um and what touched me was that mitchell was that the people there really took it seriously and there weren't any of the people that started it except you
i mean not you're the only one that plays that's you know of the and you're and you were we're not in the very initial group because you're 10 years younger than i am and that was sort of and i was the youngest person in my among my friends um so it was it was it was it was a whole nother group of children and grandchildren who took it very seriously i'd love to see them keep it going because that was the that was the vision once we started having vision uh we didn't have vision when we started we were just playing football but it was
it was it was pretty cool to watch it this year with all the seriousness and the intensity and the tension and you know you still you can still lose it which i was excited about i didn't but you didn't you could so you said we didn't get this out of the thing you need to we you said we so you can you expand on that who's we who's the we that you were referring to we was the this group of friends who mostly were from kaplan aca not not all uh and uh the the names of the people are like mark shore and michael eisenberg
and my cousin albert goodman there was pat culpepper who you know was the one non-jew in the classic he tended to show up alvin miller i could go on i mean the wii stanley friedman would come out once a while i mean i don't know who you know who who's around dallas now but um mike grossfeld showed up would always show up and we were we were all real close um we're not all real close now but we're still there's still a core of us that are very close so we really love each other and you know we have this we have a party the
night before at the shore house and then we have the classic at christmas day we used to have a party afterwards most often at the gallant this is before michael and mary ann and actually you know i'm i told you i'm a rabbi and we were and i'm a reconstructionist rabbis we do experimental things so when they asked me one of the years to do something experimental when it was around passover i wrote the classic haggadah because we did so many rituals with the classic that it actually served it was like a haggadah it was like the story the telling and it was our rituals
with warren cayman and i late at night with the announcements of the team it was um it was as if we had a set of rules now that those rules don't seem to be there anymore but it was pretty intense we were all serious about those rules you were serious about the game and now it's more it's not so much about the game for you and your friends that we that you talked about it's more about the friendships right it's totally about the friendship but it was always about the friendship i mean it was never not about the friendship but but the fact of the
matter is it's now embedded in what we do and the friendships matter i mean we love each other and most of us aren't ashamed to use that word as kids i was probably the only one that would use it but every now everybody everybody uses exactly i'm sure a lot of others used it too i'm just no that's great it's been a big part of my life and i appreciate you sharing that with everybody um where did you go to high school hell questions go across high school and can you talk about your influences at high school i think things changed after your bar mitzvah
right now you're becoming influenced by certain things music politics talk about how you might as a as a boy and like even in elementary school i was influenced by two important things um politics as you mentioned my mom was real above the democratic party uh i knew he's we would be the only people on our block probably even including your family although i'm not sure about that that would always get the democratic signs up early and then all the republican signs would come up um i worked i was president of something called kids for kennedy we both went down town this little group almost all
from our neighborhood on buses on you know on saturday and we also would walk the neighborhoods during the john kennedy elections and so that was that mattered to me a lot i mean i remember watching you know uh estes keefe offer uh become the nominee that's somebody you don't know a senator from to see the vice presidential nominee when stevenson evelyn stevenson was get the nomination it was really big in my house in my home not so much among my friends uh and i i continued in politics i eventually uh i ran large campaigns i ran campaign a statewide campaign in texas and i almost
ran for a statewide office so that always mattered to me i i moved to dc it was it was probably the biggest thing i did i moved to dc and started something called the national jewish democratic council not the biggest thing but it went on for a long long time many many years so i was involved in that and i was involved in politics in the state very close to a lot of political people it was kind of in my blood the second thing that was maybe more important and certainly equally important was was this great love of poetry i wrote it i read it
i adored it um i think the principal person that i think you know i think in my head was my seventh grade teacher a woman named mrs bradford who read a lot of frost to us and she had a little farm she and her husband and we go out there but uh you know she wrote the death of the hired man i don't know if you've read that poem but it's this gorgeous poem and i remember from that day even before i knew that somewhere between poetry and justice my life was it needed both but both of those were going to be part of it
and it certainly it certainly came from here it certainly started here seventh grade so that was still kramer or was that junior benjamin franklin okay great those are great politics and poetry great influences and was there any specific any anything that impacted your life specifically that went like a major event in those years junior high high school that you can think of that changed i mean you're into big into politics and and how did you become i know you said it's in your blood or it's in your was there anybody that specifically helped you with that or carried you along the way or gave you
that guidance the only person who had a sort of a similar view of politics was my mom and she was real involved in democratic politics not not so much in leadership roles but she was a kennedy woman or girl i guess back in this in 1960 and there was no there was no you know in my household everybody was a democrat no matter what i mean you didn't get to not be a democrat but kennedy had a special impact on most of them i i was actually at the 1960 convention kid but i was deeply deeply for johnson because he was from texas and my
mama was from for stevenson and i think we had a kennedy person in the house somewhere but it was big in my house okay well thank you so when when kennedy was assassinated i mean how'd that affect everybody in your house yourself included it was huge i mean i um i was uh my mother had taken me i was in 10th grade and my mother picked me picked me up and from from hillcrest high school and with another friend of hers and their kids we went to see kennedy come in to left field uh too it's i'd still have around yeah it was a the
airport in dallas at the main airport then and um and we went to eat and um kennedy leaving out walking out the guy behind the counter dallas was a very right-wing city which it isn't anymore the the guy behind the counter said the president was killed my mom who was this beautiful woman and didn't really have much of a temper lost it because she just thought it was this constant you know this constant group of people who hated democrats hated kennedy hated stevenson so she said you're you're just a liar but he wasn't a liar and it was i even i could see that she
had overreacted but not i understood the reaction and then it turned out she acts you know she almost like on autopilot she they drove us back to i remember walking into the school and you know um billy really i can't remember he died of aids actually billy great looking kid you know he said isn't it great that kennedy died got killed got shot he didn't get die and i i remember hating that guy until i saw him like 12 years later at the 10th reunion of my high school class and i said you know i said billy i have to tell you i've had this
against you since 10th grade and billy looked at me and i told him what he did and he said and i've seen him in a long time he kind of went to why another high school so he he says steve i just have to tell you i'm nothing like that i mean i'm like you know i really i do only progressive things i'm friends with glenn maxey who was the only gay legislator um i just remember that whole thing and he kind of he kind of came unglued but it kind of brought me back to that moment where i was in this nightmarish place where
everybody hated kennedy and it didn't make any sense to me i never hated anybody in that way so that did impact you so here is dallas is this right-wing white city right where i live where you live latino people but it was mostly dominated by the the republicans and here you are a jewish kid growing up and you go back to cattle and saying we're the outliers where the outsiders right and you kind of were right i mean and you you've taken it and here you are going through high school now kennedy's shot some people are happy about that it was a constant about kennedy
giving me you know uh so that impacted your your life your mom you told me a story about your mom yeah when i was about 10 years old she took me down to south death we campaigned we would walk priests walking up to people's houses a lot but particularly she took me down to an african-american housing project down in south dallas and we were walking together and suddenly we weren't i couldn't find her and there wasn't any danger no but nobody thought of danger okay it wasn't like the way the world worked a few years later and uh i couldn't find her and i was
running around and you know i declared she was lost and i didn't know what happened and suddenly i started to hear this i started hearing these women talking and i was following the voices and i i walked into this courtyard of the housing projects tended to have courtyards and there was a group of 10 15 not 20. women all african-american except for my mom they were drinking tea and laughing and i began to cry because i realized how much the world was the same and how good people were everywhere and it had more impact on my view of race relations within all the theories i've learned and all the things i've expostulated over the years and that particular experience just melt molded me and we could all sit around and drink tea that's great that's a great story that you told about your mom very exciting great great teacher that's great so now you are off to college so tell me where did you go
to college i went to the university of michigan for the first two years um it was a really great experience except i i didn't come out at the time but i became um aware and you know in a heart in a way of my of my homosexuality my gayness uh and i didn't come out but i knew i had to deal with it and i became very um unhappy my sophomore year uh you know literally depressed and um i came back to dallas and spent one year at smu and i saw a psychoanalyst here and um he was a great man and he really helped
me along and then i finished my last year at the university of texas um and uh that was pretty cool and i was really involved in left-wing politics liberal politics it was a time of left-wing politics all over the country and i would be involved in running elections which i did we took over the city or there was i was remember our group was called the coalition for a progressive austin and my my dad who was you know progressive i mean i loved that man and he you know he died fairly young but i when yendi was killed in chile i called my father because
he feel the same way i did but we took over the city and we got written up and i was actually written up about it in the wall street journal so i danced it calls me up and said now my friends respect what you do not because of the nature of the because they were all part of the right of my father but he said now you're in the front page of the wall street journal you're like an important person i was like that was like a great funny story to me um you know because i was like i didn't actually it was a time
when everyone was trying to get into this article because this guy was and i got to be the center of it and i was trying to get a stay away from the guy because it sounded wrong to me to want to be in a newspaper article back then to my in my insides didn't feel like the right thing to push for so he he got more interested in me because i wasn't i wasn't trying to find him he was trying to find me what'd you study in college i studied a ton of history and i say it that way because my transfers from michigan to
smu to texas in texas at that time you had to have 24 hours of your major at texas so i my senior year i just studied history like craziness so that i could graduate and get a bachelor of arts in history because i loved history and um i still did and then after college i took a year and off part of it was after seeing here in dallas the psychiatrist great guy um i hitchhiked around america i left home with about 10 bucks in my pocket hitchhiked and came back and um i couldn't that's what i and that's why i went to texas because i
needed that time to hitchhike and i grew a lot of confidence a lot of i'd get into these cars and there was a lot of wonderful people and there were some crazy people um i almost got killed going from chicago to ann arbor which was the place i went to college as a sophomore i also spent about six months and started a group here at the university jewish community center and it was called what was it called it would anyway it it was a group of like 100 high jewish high school kids and um i can even name some of the people that did it
with me nobody you probably know there's somebody i post to on facebook and she you know we still keep close we don't see each other she lives here first name is norma but um she was i was dating her at the time you're gay as i was i was dating her but anyway i'd get up every morning and take like 10 kids six kids whatever down to either latino or an african-american housing project and we would serve breakfast to those kids and one of the really fabulous stories that really does have a little bit of dallas history so as a there was one prominent woman
who really was scared to death of this project and she was demanding that there be a meeting of the mothers so they could talk about this project and it was here at this jewish center it was a much smaller jewish center but it was the same geographic place and um you know i could give you all the names but i'm not going to but the the there's this very wealthy businessman a meatpacker and his daughter did twice a week means she took it up at four in the morning uh and something wrong so she she so he calls me up and said steve you know
do you need me to come to this meeting because i hear there's a meeting and i said mr blank it would be really great if you did come because i think there might be some controversy and it would be really wonderful to have you in the room and so the woman that was leading the charge to stop the project she was saying that we're going to the kids are going to get killed they're going to fall down and you know that hillcrest high school was where most of the kids came from it was it was the panthers so there was black panthers when it were
like a big thing the black panthers were this movement so somehow the newspapers the times harold conflated the two and so these panthers are going you know these young jewish panthers so it was there was no black panthers there was any african-american people doing the same work we were doing so we were feeding them so anyway these poor people in the housing project so this man stands up and he said well you know i've got to say something and i i was taken aback because you know i speak emotionally and i always have about how these kids were growing and learning and getting to so
he stands up and he says you know i don't know so much but i love it when steve talks like this but the truth matter is i don't really care if they're learning what all i know is my daughter is getting up at four o'clock in the morning twice a week kids don't do that to go down and serve some people who needed some food and you know i think it's a good thing i think if she gets knocked down she'll get back up and she'll grow from it but what i'd like to say is and he mentions the woman's name blank you have said
your piece and now i have said mine and i would like you know the only business person in the room and had a lot of respect i think we should just get on with the business at hand i mean if you don't want your kids coming just take them out and nobody did that nobody he comes up to me afterwards and he says steve how much meat do you and i'm a vegetarian now but i would take meat then he says how much meat do you all need and i told him what we needed he says one of every two weeks i have you know
for the sake of the number 15 pounds delivered to the jewish community center and you guys that's that'll be enough for the two weeks the way you're explaining it um is that be okay so it was really a great time of learning how things can happen that's fantastic you're impacting other people now right at that time here you are how old were you 20 i was graduating college so 20 years old now you're starting to impact other people right i suppose i don't know i was very i still love some of those people i know some of those kids are not kids anymore they weren't
that much younger than me well they wouldn't have that meat without you oh those kids yes oh yeah i'm sure that was helpful to them i was thinking of the people that actually got up in the morning and did it i thought that was really great to watch all these high school kids doing it absolutely so here you are graduated texas traveling around the country hitchhiking right i talked a lot around about america around europe i was a hitchhiker i'm in northern africa i did a hitchhiking no money a lot right fabulous experiences good bad you know there were a lot i hitchhiked once with
uh in europe and we didn't go together all the time but mark shore who is one of the people in the classic even one of my best friends we would we hitchhiked all over europe i don't think he went to yeah we were morocco together there's great stories about that moroccan i just thought of them um but we work together all the time we just meet um and how did you communicate how did you do that i mean right now you got cell phones right you text somebody i'll be in morocco but how do you do it you do it how'd you do it then
we didn't there was no real way to communicate but by letter i mean you know i guess i don't think i got on the phone once with my parents and mark and i certainly didn't how do we get i think we would plan on where we would meet we i don't know how we did it but we we definitely met we met in bordeaux we met in spain and we met again and we hitchhiked from rome and i remember in athens i got all my money stolen and i think he gave me some money i was in bad shape well you can tell us any
stories you want about that time if you'd like if not i'll go through how did you keep your jewish identity through this or was it a part of what you wanted to do it's not even it wasn't ever not part of me uh you know it was big to me like i didn't i you know mark and i went to uh i think he did i know i did to like uh to go to try to find a passover meal i'm not sure we got i think we got sick trying to find it in madrid there weren't any jews in madrid to be honest at
the time they really they really purged that city of jews or the jews purge themselves of madrid i don't know but uh i'd look for juice you know jews are big to me i mean i'm a jew and it matters a lot you know so i'm not a it's it's a big thing to me okay and so you're traveling around was there a time where you thought okay i'm going to go to law school oh yeah when i left i i figured i'd go to law school like applied after before before i took the trip um and after i took the year off it was
a little more like a year and a half left uh to do the youth volunteer service corps that was what it was that was here at the jewish community center um and um that was the name of it and uh it was mostly jews we didn't you know there were some christian kids in it but it was mostly jewish kids uh here but um i i knew i wanted to go to law school and i did i came back and i um i applied to like three schools i didn't i didn't i got into the university of texas law school i got into another law
school um maybe university of pennsylvania and then i didn't get into harvard which is you know but everybody here told me that if i didn't get into something like harvard in texas was like one of the top 10 schools in the country they said you really want to go to texas if you're going to live here which i assumed i'd live all my life which i so i wound up going to texas and um been law school kind of boring and i got really involved in politics in austin i mean just overly involved in politics during that time so what what years were those that
you were in law school i was in law school from about 70 no let's see 71 through 75 i didn't i didn't graduate from law school yeah i graduated about seven i didn't graduate until 77 i had to take one course after i after law school i went around the world for a year i hitchhiked all over the world but i had to take a course i i finished what was required to take the bar but i had to have a course to have actually graduated okay so i didn't graduate till 77. so in this period 1971 to 75 you're in austin you say you got really involved in politics tell us a little bit about that if you don't mind yeah that's when we took over the city we we won the we won the 75 election the council elections from the conservatives we were you know belittled i think most of my friends in austin were working in the in the campaigns to do that uh it was the coalition for progressive austin the cpa so you're talking about city council you took over city council we took over that city and uh with our slate and um it was
pretty cool and like yeah i said i was written up and we we we beat we lost by a few hundred votes in nuclear power um election um the powers that be were like really nervous about our group one of the great mayors said i hope we can flush no it was it was a the great mayor was just he said he he hoped i'd leave mayor butler but then there's this woman with betty hemel blount she said i wish we could flush steve kitchen down the toilet because they were it was a we were against the sewage growth because we didn't want austin to
keep growing okay well i can't believe a mayor would say that but i i wouldn't this is not what i didn't say about suny all right yeah it was pretty well yeah what do you mean you couldn't believe the mayor would say that look at what they tell these things to say today well yeah that is 30 or 40 years later i mean but i'm glad that you got them out i mean that you took over the city that's fantastic so you're still that outsider right i mean you're still coming in here you are from dallas texas took of dawson you've lived with that i
wasn't outsider but you know i also believe everyone had to get along with each other and like each other and i always believed that much to my i wasn't a radical i was a idealist and i was accused of that by the radicals he's an idealist like we can't we can't accuse him of doing this for some other reason but i uh i did i really wanted everyone i wanted society to work and i still do i mean it's always been a part of me okay so now after you got through with law school in 1975 you you went again again to travel around the
world hitchhiking or different different way well i bought a trip like i bought a flight you know from los angeles i had a hitchhike to l.a and then i went to i went to uh i went to tahiti from los angeles had an amazing time in tahiti you know i was by myself and i loved it actually and i tell you amazing stories but i won't uh and then i went to fiji and had even more amazing stories like where you know i almost got i landed a town called nandi and this lady they took me to this little place called latoka which is actually
a little bigger than nandi and they tried to rob me and i left and then i went to this village called reiki reiki and i i remember there was a there was a a king so-called king trying to entice me to be with him and this guy georgia musi takes me aside big guy he says you don't want to go with the king he wants to do bad things to you so he said but my family and i live in this little village called the tawa and not too far down such and such you know you can get to it by hitchhiking and i um
i said look you know i said i'm really too nervous i've had a hard couple of days look so i decided i wanted to get to the capitol of and stash my stuff my backpack and then i went and i spent a wonderful time in this village of the tawa and i and i had an amazing story happen to me there which i'll share tommy was one of the three kids jimmy was the oldest boy he was the prince some easter festival or some festival tommy was asking me what my religion was and i was trying to explain it to him and when he finally
understood about it was israel and then these were all assembly of god people assembly of god is how they said it and they he jumped on the floor in the form of a being crucified and he started shaking it wasn't he was ten i mean he wasn't like a 20 year old making a joke he was scared and i said tommy it's just me it's just steve he's by himself in the in the it wasn't a house it was like it was a house but it was you know like a hut um grass hut and he goes and he started to smile and i i
thought this is how you make peace in the world because he got up and hugged me he realized that whatever he had thought that we had killed christ that he no longer was seeing me as the killer of christ because i was just steve great story i like it fantastic so just i have one question about hitchhiking at this time hitchhiking was a big thing i know my brother accepted it so you're doing it so this is was the way of life right for a lot of people was for you of course but he's like around australia he talked about new zealand uh i think
when i got to i'm not sure that i didn't teach like in india and hitchhiking i don't think i checked in nepal i don't think i hitchhiked again until israel um i went i went to burma then i did i definitely took trains in burma amazing experiences in burma i had great experiences in indonesia in bali but i was hitchhiking you've been to countries that aren't even called burma and rhodesia why'd you go to hell no i said that i didn't mean that um i didn't go there i only went to morocco in africa but no but um burma just so you'll know if you're
if you're worried about the way they're treating the muslim minority group there you still people still want you to call it burma because they see myanmar the name of it today is really part of the tyrannical buddhist regime that that is killing a lot of muslims which by the way is an interesting story because you know no one thinks of a buddhist can also be you look it's a peaceful wonderful religion they can also do evil things and i you know what they're doing right now in burma or myanmar um it's pretty awful to these people yes it is so tell us about some of
your work or some of your projects civic organizations that are memorable to you if you'd like to talk about that this is after college years um before you start working perhaps as a lawyer you can talk about that i came back and my dad was dying so i kind of ran the business for a little while till my sister and her husband came up and ran and then i three friends and i four of us opened a law firm in dallas and it was called albukuto bloom or something like that and um i mostly did that i was real involved in the city i was
on many committees city committees county committees a lot a lot involved the environment and then in 83 i took i was chairman of the chairperson of something called they have it still the jewish community relations council and it was a very you know important organization in the city and i saw how we would make sure that the congress members from dallas and also in houston and also in phoenix they all voted pro-israel on some of the issues and i was just i was saddened by the fact that when you the this this area i mean the five states of six states arizona new mexico louisiana
arkansas texas i call it um kept foreign almost we almost didn't get foreign aid no it wouldn't be just for nate israel's foreign period because it was all the same bill uh because of the votes of the congressman here so somebody approached me about taking a leave of absence from my law practice in the 80s and starting the apec region which they didn't have then for the southwest so i did i moved to austin they you know obviously the two titular cities were dallas in houston but there's also new orleans and phoenix and i mean mostly there aren't big cities in arkansas big cities of
that kind new mexico um but anyway i so i i really did i went all over this area met the jews and all these little towns i was still a part partner in my law firm but it was a you know i could always apec and the agreement was i can only put a certain amount of time in and i had an agreement with my law firm at all it all had to work out so it worked and i did it for about two and a half years we really organized jews everywhere all these little towns and it was so wonderful to watch them they
had nobody ever come about this they come to get uja money or federation money to these little odessas and roswell new mexico's and seminole oklahoma i mean they're 12 jews and they're trying to get whatever little money they could possibly get out of them but we said you're really important because there's a congress person and one of my favorite stories was the first place that i went to was a congressman named hall ralph hall and he was kyler in longview and he was a conservative democrat and they told me in washington apac told me you can't get him he's an ant you know he's not
gonna be for us he's not gonna they said worse things but and i just started organizing longview and tyler constantly i was out there and we finally had the meeting and i remember which was the right thing for them to want they said we're not doing this without you so as it gets better if he just thinks it comes from you so we we met and i'll never forget it because congressman hall was supposed to be somebody we never get and he came to this meeting and you know we all talked and we really planned how we were going to talk and what part i
you know that what part the outside agitator which was me would have in the meeting the part was made sense i think and um at the end of this he looks at this table in this law firm and he goes um is he rouge too i'm sure people know still it's one of the great oil families of east texas he said izzy you've supported me all my life all my life um you've given me money as much as you could give norman you're the mayor of tyler you you do my politics in tyler and he went all around the room he said you all have
never asked me to vote for foreign aid you've never asked it not once you've never asked me until today when when steve has asked me to go to israel and i will marry ellen i'll go to the apec policy conference i've never ever thought y'all didn't say this is important to you i don't care what people in washington tell me i care what you tell me and the guy became very pro-israel he said i'm a democrat i'm a conservative democrat but i'm not an ideologue if foreign aid means this much to you i'll vote for it and he did and that's a great story because
it really impelled me on all the rest of that two and a half years of organizing and we changed the vote i don't say me but we changed the vote to people there from 37 to 14 against foreign aid because they don't want to spend money wouldn't they didn't wouldn't even like today it wouldn't be because we ate fort why would we spend money on that to 37 14 for it and the vote went from a very close vote in the congress to a pretty big one we you know we had a big margin because that's a big change so it really taught me a
lot about organizing and a lot about how you really go down to where the people are fantastic and ask for it right and ask for it and what and ask for it yeah you have to ask for it right you have to ask for it you have to show that you care and they don't want to know people in washington want they want to know people in time is that the same today partly to an extent really probably to extend if you really were talking you know i i have to think i have to think that if you're you know you've seen doubt you've seen
all the cities here as people have gotten up and grown they've gone from quite republican where people just used to talk to business people to democratic and you've seen out in the country where people really started listening once the evangelical churches started organizing in the 90s they they went from um basically democrats to republican because they were they started realizing the politics of abortion and the politics that they they they had control of those of the members of congress and whether the place was so i think people do listen and i think i think we should all listen to each other i don't i think
that's the weakness of today is people only listen to one side and i'm not sure that was true a long time ago there were a lot of moderate conservative dems there were a lot but moderate republicans i mean there were i mean yeah that's not even that's not even a mythology i'm saying people were different they didn't just assume you were ex or what yeah the listening part is a kid excuse me so a couple more things uh you mentioned earlier in our interview you became a rabbi can you talk about that how you wanted how that came about and why you wanted to do
that when i was a boy like nine years old i read a book called the richard halliburton's book of marvels and there were about maybe 15 great places in the world that were really strange and wondrous but the one that took my heart away was a place called encore wat which is in cambodia and i felt like i was supposed to go there so that's that's number one i felt like i was supposed to go there all my life um i um when i hitchhiked around the world i was in new zealand and i remember i had a dream and i woke up in auckland
and my friend mark pearl mudder told me his wife at that time she was also she's also a friend diane was waiting for us at anchor watch and he had an airplane why they really aren't into the world i mean right now just at this idea of angkor wat to take me there take the two of us there and he was taking us so we went and diane had diana have had a lot diane had a lunch in this cave that doesn't exist but in my dream it did and then as i as i went to washington uh you know many years later and started
the national jewish democratic council i decided i kept feeling hey i started to feel like the pope remember i said poetry and justice or politics or power whatever you want to call it i felt the poetry was i was losing it i felt like i was see you and said what can i what can he do for me what could she do for me uh i became utilitarian and i was looking at people and i i started hate this me because it wasn't me and i knew that washington had shifted me and i really i mean the organization was going all right but i just
really realized that i wanted to get at it i wanted to learn so i went i was going to eventually be a trip to israel with this party chair a democratic party chair and a bunch of state chairs but i met a guy that i had been you know probably the person i was closest to in my life he's a buddhist and we met in bangkok and we went to cambodia and we went to see in courtwatt and we saw all these places where they killed all these people whether it be the killing fields or this high school in phnom penh which is the capital
uh and they just destroyed people there uh little babies and i came back after and i went to i and i an anchor a lot which just overwhelmed me um which is in a little town called siem reap it's not in islam and i came back and i wrote this piece to letter to myself and it said politics philosophy religion all is night only an open heart has any consistent meaning and i decided to find a way to live my life with an open heart so i went up through what i had to winnow through which meant you know i needed to work in the
60 96 election i was the i was the sorry word uh i ran the coordinated campaign for the state of texas which is all the democratic things it happens in most big states there's a democratic coordinator campaign and a republican one because you basically have to get the same people out to vote so why should each candidate be doing that um and um but i i applied to i was going to go to uh to i couldn't go to i couldn't make sense of a conservative rabbinate because not only was it anti-gay but it was also anti i mean i i just don't believe in
halakhah the jewish law is being controlling i mean i think it's important stuff and we should know it real well i just don't think we should to be a good jew you have to do that and i think to be a good conservative rabbi you have to have a stronger view of holocaust than i do uh so i um i went to the reconstructionist for medical school it overwhelmed me it was felt like going back into the womb late in life i was in my 50s by this time um and but but it really had a lot to do with washington becoming very utilitarian in
washington and he was losing my book my poetry feeling i was losing it which i didn't ever want to do and secondly it had a lot to do with uh encore what with the mystical reality the almost epiphany i mean it wasn't an epiphany like somebody came but it was like i went there and i knew that my life had to be different so that's that's why i chose to become a rabbi instead of continuing as a lawyer or a political organizer are those things which you know still they all make sense to me but that's not what i would want it to be from
nine years old that's unbelievable from nine years old was in my head as a place i had to get to and reading it in a book you saw that richard albert's book of marvel's kid it was written in 1936 i was before before either one of us were born and he had gone to these different places all but that particular place took me to my breath away that's unbelievable that somebody could write something that powerful that you could read i don't know what i feel like now reading it i don't even know you know this i don't know i just know what it did to
me then so where did you go where was rabbinical school i you know i so i was thinking of going to the reform school because i said i couldn't be conservative rabbi and then um my friend said you know you're the truth is reconstructionism is ritually closer to conservative um it came from conservative judaism mordecai kaplan who started it was a great conservative sociologist scholar uh who taught at jewish theological seminary which is the flagship certainly was then of the of the conservative movement and um when i started reading about reconstructionism there was this book by a guy named arthur green who's kind of a
mystical jew who had been president of the recon reconstructionist college i i felt like that was i thought it was for me and i went up there i went up there i had from the texas experiences of running that campaign and stuff i i was here in texas in austin but i felt like i needed to go see it at least and so i i burst i was crying when i got there um ravine had just been killed the night before and the kids which i think i saw myself as one you know were so emotional and they were singing and this is where i
needed to go find my soul and it was a great six years i loved it okay well that's good i'm glad you did what you you found your soul i did it was always there but i seemed to seem to couldn't find it maybe it was because i lost somewhere i was it was in this utilitarian what can i get out of you world that i had i'd become part of and was a good representative i thought you know and now as a rabbi do you practice uh you know are you a member of a school yeah i uh right after rabbinical school i was
i was the pulpit rabbi of a small reconstructionist synagogue in saint louis and um i didn't really it didn't really work for me for many reasons um it's a good place it's an excellent place and i knew after the contract ended i was going to need to go and find another place something a little different canvas of you know there was a lot synagogues are difficult places there's a lot of people that don't like each other and even though everybody at least then seemed to like me it was just a couple of years i couldn't take the this like practice anyway i'm not getting any
more than that i started looking around at different things and um i called a friend of mine who was running an organization a big national organization it is still the organization that's the head of all the community relations councils in the country and the only organization it's also six all the all the major religious movements the adl the american jewish committee the national council of jewish women there's like 16 national organizations and its job is to help formulate national um the you know also the orthodox union i mean it was it wasn't a a right or left-wing organization it was really a center organization and
so i wanted to uh i wanted to it worked and they wanted me and i wanted them and so i spent 10 years a little more than 10 years as the executive of that organization until about 2015 where what i had garnered from this time was that there was one per one group of people i felt very close to that most of my friends felt were a little bit off limits and those were fundamentally white evangelicals and i knew so many of them had great such great hearts and um i got i was part of a i've actually co-chaired something with an evangelical leader uh
we would meet for two we still do it we'll be in our 12th year meet in washington 20 of us 20 of them and talk about every subject under the sun and there's a lot of teachings there and so i i wanted to see if i could create these religious groups of the top religious leaders in cities and so i've been doing this for about two years and i'm i i'm a visiting scholar now i'm called a research scholar don't ask me why um at new york university at nyu and um i go around and try to create these groups and um organize these groups
and they create themselves but i i i'm you know you gotta have for the group to work you have to have a jew you have to have a muslim you have to have a mainline christian you have to be catholic and you have to have an evangelical a white evangelical who you know who's perceived as that and it's going it's going well i mean if you don't talk about abortion and you don't talk about gay rights um you can do it i mean you know and when they say someone some liberals so how do you know we have a different view on those things steve
how do we do it i said you don't seem to stop the catholics you don't seem to stop the muslims you don't seem to stop the orthodox jews you've picked out the white evangelicals who care deeply about having people having homes and they're they're okay with legislation for it i mean why would you know or or they want people to have not live in food deserts anyway it's exciting work but at the age of 70 i must admit it's very you know it's it's it's a lot of energy is in organizing and i sometimes feel like i'm i'm right there as far as i can
be and i don't know like you know i just don't know but it's it's going well so i'm good i'm just visiting here from new york i live in new york city right now so that's your passion it's you've found your soul and this is part of your purpose right this is part of it yeah yeah it's fantastic i've always sort of been where my soul is except that period in washington right you followed it so this is the talking and the listening part that comes back and everybody's got to do that or you're going nowhere right you got to do that you got to
do you got to keep thinking so this has been an unbelievable interview just a couple more questions that will wind it down um i know you're not married no children uh but i wanted to ask you um if you could share advice or yeah with the next generation of jewish kids if there's anything you want to leave to them as part of this interview that somebody will look at this down the road and wonder what kind of advice that you would give them without without sounding trite i would say that friendship love passion about the other whether it be your wife or husband or a
partner or whatever you want to call it um or your friends or just the people that walk the hallways or are running the gift store here uh open your soul it's it's a good thing for for any decision it doesn't matter about what year you're in you don't know whether you're in the 21st century or the 20th century or probably the beginning of time just open your heart and and and and go go there and listen and learn and be there for people when they need you and there's nothing more important than that and if you if you if you let that draw you you
will be so much better i think as a person you'll you'll love yourself more as you love others more as opposed to worrying about whether or not you got this goal you know you got this accolade or you got into this club or people looked up you respectfully i'm not saying all these things are part of my life too i mean these things i don't love but the other side is let the to let the left side win as much as you possibly can as as much as you're willing because you you'll always do better i mean i was talking to a woman in the
in the guest store who is having a problem with her daughter she said this woman was i don't know her age because she was in her 80s and the daughter was i'm sure it couldn't be that you know had to be at least in her 50s and i said you know you you don't want you want you want her and she didn't know i was i didn't i didn't say i did eventually said i was right away because i realized that that's what me saying just make it work you know i mean just what do you got to lose here yeah she said well i
know you're right i know you're right and she said i tried but it's really hard and i said i know it is that's what but you gotta we all gotta keep trying you gotta keep trying that that's great advice i really like that so there was one question i forgot to ask you when you became a rabbi it was either your mom or dad alive to see that uh no um i became around by 2003 and my mom had died in 96 my dad had died in oh man i'm like 77. well they would have been proud of you obviously they were proud of you i think they thought i was a little crazy but i you know there was a piece of them so so proud of me i mean i think they did think i mean my mother who was quite aware of the rabbi thing and i thought what you know he's 50 years old he's starting rabbinical school he doesn't know hebrew like what's he doing that's great well i know this is a long interview is there anything that we miss that you'd like to touch on no you actually you actually let me talk about
what mattered the most in this interview uh both that i think everybody should try to find a synthesis of you know of their passions of love and also of success whatever it is i mean success can be running a business success could be but also love of their family and love their friends and love their community i think i think they have to merge and you have to fight to keep the word but you you got that out of me and um so i i don't really have much more to say well that's great steve i want to thank you for sitting you know for
this interview with the dad pleasure i love i mean i love you and and so of course i'm going to love doing this so thank you for inviting me you're welcome i love you too and uh it was it's actually this is the first time i've done an interview where the sun has shined on you the entire and it looks great and thank you thank you once again steve thank you